Idle locos left unattended?

[GB]

Have just re read our company notice regarding idling locos.

Its states that locos should be shut down providing the loco will not be used within the next 15 minutes. Does not need to be shut down if it is to provide heat or cooling or if the outside temperature is cold or for any other operational reason.

It goes on to say that a class 66 burns roughly 4.5L of diesel for every hour of idling and would equate to £35k per month across the fleet without the idling policy.

 

[1e10]

That still occurs with the Class 185s that stable at Cleethorpes over Christmas.

Can trains be refuelled with engines running?

 

[TB93]

Yes they can.

 

[Beveridges]

Even smaller engines in basic Railbusses and 15X DMUs are often kept running all night in minus conditions. They are almost never shut down in these temperatures.

 

[Bill EWS]

I took an eight car set (DMU) from Marylebone station to Princess Riceborough one New Year's Eve late afternoon to be stabled there until first service after New Year's day. I was surprised when told to shut it down competely as it was bitterly cold and that was a long period. I thought it a bad idea as there was a good chance that it wouldn't start up. As it turned out the first service had to be cancelled and a lot of delay before another set was sent from Marylbone because the set did refuse to restart. So it really isn't always a good thing to shut them down in such conditions.

I remember too that the Western Hydraulics had a heater system which had to be run every now and again during long waiting times in the cold. If these heaters didn't work or were deliberately not fired up as described there was a massive wear & tear cost when starting them from cold, which had to be considered. Can't remember if the heaters were paraffin or diesel fule. I think possibly paraffin!

None railway people should be careful when they criicising from an ignorant stance as there is usually a well known financial reasons why some locos and units need to be kept running in such conditions.

 

[Beveridges]

Can trains be refuelled with engines running?

Diesel, engine oil and coolant can all be fuelled into trains with engines running. However, its very noisy on the deck. Ear defenders are essential.

 

[cjp]

Diesel, engine oil and coolant can all be fuelled into trains with engines running. However, its very noisy on the deck. Ear defenders are essential.

Wonder why it is a No with cars & lorries then? (The refuelling station would not care if it was stolen whilst unattended - not their problem)

 

[RichmondCommu]

Back in the early 1980's a trip to West Houses on a freezing cold weekend revealed at least a dozen class 20's whistling away to their hearts content. The noise could be heard as soon as we got out the car which was two or three fields away. Memories!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have just re read our company notice regarding idling locos.

Its states that locos should be shut down providing the loco will not be used within the next 15 minutes. Does not need to be shut down if it is to provide heat or cooling or if the outside temperature is cold or for any other operational reason.

It goes on to say that a class 66 burns roughly 4.5L of diesel for every hour of idling and would equate to £35k per month across the fleet without the idling policy.

I guess it all depends on how you define cold!

 

[EE Andy b1]

I remember back in BR days when I was still based at Warrington we used to do frost precautions.

One Christmas the temperature was way down and we had to start up all the locos stabled on Arpley holding sidings at Arpley Jct low level.

The sight was to behold as the cold clear night just turned to a smoke laden sky, what with all that English Electric power laden clag.

Classes 20, 31, 37, 56 all playing their part.

It was all enough to bring the Fire Brigade out!

Good times. LOL.

 

[ash39]

Wonder why it is a No with cars & lorries then? (The refuelling station would not care if it was stolen whilst unattended - not their problem)

Think it's because of the (minor) risk of explosion due to the electrical systems igniting the petrol vapours. Same reason you're not meant to use a phone, although some people seem to ignore that :roll:

As diesel only burns under compression, no need to worry.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yep, electrics only in Platform 0! I believe there is also a sign on the approach to reinforce that!

By the time you get to the sign I would imagine it would be too late!

 

[DownSouth]

Wonder why it is a No with cars & lorries then? (The refuelling station would not care if it was stolen whilst unattended - not their problem)

This is nothing to do with a risk of fire, instead it is all about reducing the chance of the car running away (a manual car cannot be securely parked with the engine on, and even an auto can have the transmission selector bumped out of Park by a passenger) and getting people to be fully attentive to their actions - risks which are managed differently in the railway environment where procedures don't need to be quite so amateur-proof.

The same applies to the refuelling station rule about not using your mobile phone. There has never been even a single pump fire caused by a mobile phone, not even when Mythbusters went out of their way to stack everything in favour of trying to create one. The problem with mobile phones is nothing to do with fire and everything to do with a text or voice conversation on a phone being a bigger impairment to awareness and attention than being plastered over the legal alcohol limit for driving.

So long as the car is securely parked, no naked flames are present near the car's refuelling port and it's not an enclosed garage, it is completely safe to refuel a roadworthy petrol or diesel car (not sure about LPG fuel systems) with the engine running. Yes, there is a tiny chance of a static discharge starting a pump fire (so tiny it is deemed acceptable for ordinary amateurs like you and me to refuel our own cars and for others to drive in/out of the station at the same time as other people are filling up) but this is completely independent of any risks associated with running engines.

For the rare case of a flat battery, it's safer to refuel with the engine running (wheels chocked if it's a manual) than to switch the engine off for refuelling and then start it using jumper leads from another car's battery.


In terms of locomotives, it is safe not only to refuel without shutting down but even to do it on the move. A number of freight operators in Australia run trains through the most remote areas (including a straight section just 12 kilometres shorter than London-Penzance) with a couple of tanks on a wagon to top up the locomotives at the front as they go along. This allows the operators to efficiently work around the awkward combination of the world's most remote lines being restricted by axle loads of the early 20th century. See the first part of this video for an example...

[youtube]5qaNJEkXl9E[/youtube]

 

[Taunton]

In Canada, with previous generations of diesels (GM etc) there was a longstanding issue of coolant leakage over time, they all needed to be topped up daily. As a result, the coolant used plain water rather than anti-freeze, which would have cost a fortune with all that leaked away. Therefore you didn't want to leave the engine shut down for too many hours in winter with plain water in it. If you did have to shut down in these conditions (eg derailed) then you needed to go round and drain at all the coolant system drain points, and of course fill it all up again before restarting.

Some units were outstabled overnight and although idling they might suddenly shut down due to fuel contamination, etc, and by the morning the diesel might be frozen and damaged. So there was a device called an "engine watcher", microphones mounted on a pole next to where the units were stabled, that with the normal noise of idling were OK, but if the noise stopped they operated an alert over the telephone lines to the dispatchers desk.

 

[DownSouth]

Think it's because of the (minor) risk of explosion due to the electrical systems igniting the petrol vapours. Same reason you're not meant to use a phone, although some people seem to ignore that :roll:

As diesel only burns under compression, no need to worry.

1. No - see the detailed version above. Ever wondered why it's regarded as safe to drive in and out of the station right alongside other people filling up?

2. Diesel fuel does burn outside of compression, compression is merely used to achieve the necessary autoignition temperature for diesel vapour (210°C) which is actually far lower than the point at which petrol achieves autoignition (~250°C) hence the reason a spark plug is used in a petrol engine instead of compressing it to achieve autoignition. You are confusing this with the higher flash point** of diesel (about 52°C) compared to petrol (–40°C).

What this boils down to is that even a spark cannot ignite diesel vapours if the temperature of the vapour is below 52°C - but on a sunny day even in a cool country like Britain it is very easy for diesel fuel left in an uncovered contained or spilled on the ground to absorb the necessary energy reach 52°C. Once the diesel vapour reaches 52°C and beyond, it can be ignited from a spark just as easily as petrol vapour in a similar situation would, with the added danger of the heavier diesel vapour not dispersing as freely as petrol vapour does.


* commonly known as spontaneous combustion, i.e. no spark, flame or chemical catalyst required.
** the point at which the fuel in question can form a ignitable vapour mix with air.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The same applies to the refuelling station rule about not using your mobile phone. There has never been even a single pump fire caused by a mobile phone, not even when Mythbusters went out of their way to stack everything in favour of trying to create one.

Brainiac tried the same thing and it didn't work.

They did use the spark from a bloke in a shell suit to manage the explosion though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4p8Z1o9dzs

 

[DownSouth]

Bond's car and mobile phone from Tomorrow Never Dies could probably get the job done, but that would just be lame when starting it with an exploding pen would be far more fun.

 

[Dasher]

Have just re read our company notice regarding idling locos.

Its states that locos should be shut down providing the loco will not be used within the next 15 minutes. Does not need to be shut down if it is to provide heat or cooling or if the outside temperature is cold or for any other operational reason.

It goes on to say that a class 66 burns roughly 4.5L of diesel for every hour of idling and would equate to £35k per month across the fleet without the idling policy.

Would there be any security concerns if a Class 66 was left idling in a siding at the head of a GBRF freight train with no staff in attendance for 14 hours ?

 

[DownSouth]

Would there be any security concerns if a Class 66 was left idling in a siding at the head of a GBRF freight train with no staff in attendance for 14 hours ?

More likely to be a problem with the security of the freight than a securely locked locomotive.

 

[Beveridges]

I fuel DMUs semi regularly and out of the combined total of 40, 000 litres I put in the fleet, about 2000 litres gets spilled. There is a strong smell of diesel vapours in the air despite the fact that it is an open air outdoor environment under a canopy. Is breathing in diesel vapours likely to damage my health? The TOC have assured me it has been safety checked, but I don't trust them.

 

[DownSouth]

Is breathing in diesel vapours likely to damage my health? The TOC have assured me it has been safety checked, but I don't trust them.

I would guess that the quantity and concentration is low enough to only be a threat of irritation if your fuel point is in an open space.

As my workplace does own a diesel-fuelled van I have looked up the MSDS on my OHS&W document disc, it's classed as non-toxic by inhalation of vapours. Most importantly, unburnt diesel fuel is not known to be carcinogenic, which means it does not degrade the capability of your lungs to keep on doing their job as a filter to stop the nasty stuff getting in.

There are many worse things you could be inhaling on a daily basis, petrol car emissions and tobacco smoke for starters.

 

[broadgage]

Wonder why it is a No with cars & lorries then? (The refuelling station would not care if it was stolen whilst unattended - not their problem)

Fueling a petrol engined road vehicle with the engine running is unwise due to the volatile fuel and explosive vapours.
Any spillage or leakage of petrol is more liable to ignite with a hot engine and potential sparks from the electrical system.

In the case of a diesel engined road vehicle, there is no significant risk and the practice is I suspect, only prohibited so as to have a consistent rule for all vehicles at public filling stations.

 

[edwin_m]

In the case of a diesel engined road vehicle, there is no significant risk and the practice is I suspect, only prohibited so as to have a consistent rule for all vehicles at public filling stations.

...or because even if you're filling diesel, you don't know what the person at the next pump is doing.

 

[Genocide]

710's are a North American lump and over there they are very rarely shut down - they're designed to idle quietly. Anyone who has done a long distance Amtrak or Via train will confirm that you can fuel and service whilst the loco is idling - it's common practise. On US/Canadian transcontinental freights the locos - complete with train - will be scheduled to stop at what can only be described as service stations en-route, where they'll be fuelled, watered and sanded.

Edit - the opposite would be the Friday afternoon Bescot legend when all the weekend only departmental pool 31's got fired up after standing from the previous Monday morning. CSVT's clag at the best of times, and apparently the procedure had to be revised after several occasions when clouds of clag caused several pile ups on the adjacent M5!

 

[GB]

Would there be any security concerns if a Class 66 was left idling in a siding at the head of a GBRF freight train with no staff in attendance for 14 hours ?

Providing the loco is locked then there is little issue.

Where was this out of interest? To have one of our trains running AND unattended for 14hrs is unusual and suggests there were other issues at play.

If the loco was shut down for more than an hour the train would need another brake test which would usually require another member of staff. Perhaps there wasn't anyone else available.

 

[455driver]

Edit - the opposite would be the Friday afternoon Bescot legend when all the weekend only departmental pool 31's got fired up after standing from the previous Monday morning. CSVT's clag at the best of times,

Pedant mode-

The 31s were fitted with 12SVT engines, the 37s had the 12CSVT version!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

]Most importantly, unburnt diesel fuel is not known to be carcinogenic, which means it does not degrade the capability of your lungs to keep on doing their job as a filter to stop the nasty stuff getting in..

That's not what carcinogenic means.

 

[DownSouth]

That's not what carcinogenic means.

In the context of avoiding permanent damage to the lungs' ability to filter out crap, it is what is most relevant.

 

[Bill EWS]

You can stick a lighted match or a cigarette into a diesel tank. I wouldn't recommend doing so with a petrol tank.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I fuel DMUs semi regularly and out of the combined total of 40, 000 litres I put in the fleet, about 2000 litres gets spilled.

Why is the spillage rate so high? Aside from any environmental concerns, this looks like a huge annual cost - 5% of the total fuel bill.

 

[DB Driver029]

Interesting Thread. A Can of Worms . The same guidelines apply at DB as member GB has posted. No Loco s should be left running unattended unless specific instructions are issued by each company Control. Modern Loco s tend not to have fixed fire equipment, (66 s and some 67 s).
All Loco Doors should be locked anyway unless it is the leading Cab in use.
Beveridges: If you have reported your concerns to your TOC and nothing done then try the Ciras report system. Diesel fuel is a health hazard in all forms. You should also have access to COSHH outlining fuelling of Units.