IEP criticism by Roger Ford

[sprinterguy]

Do people's complaints about Voyagers have anything to do with their seats?

Yes, frequently. With regards to their perceived comfort, legroom and their positioning relative to window pillars.

 

[urpert]

Oh dear, how dull does standard class look?

I prefer what we're getting over here on the GA.

Not sure why it's passing a Class 309 though.

Those are the same seats as on refurb FGW HSTs, as well as recent Austrian stock. They're very good IMO. Like the colour scheme too.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I don't think this was surprising that the new stock looks dull because to be honest, it is.
Thanks,
Ross

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those are the same seats as on refurb FGW HSTs, as well as recent Austrian stock. They're very good IMO. Like the colour scheme too.

Reminds me a bit of the Swiss 1st interior:

 

[AlterEgo]

But does it look awful (and I agree it does) simply because there is no colour, that being solvable simply with a set of new seat covers?

This:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-look-inside-new-virgin-7584498
looks a lot better, doesn't it?

It's the same seats in the same layout - just a bit of colour added.

I see your point, though I really detest the First Class scheme there. Utterly tasteless, but then that's just my 2p.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see your point, though I really detest the First Class scheme there. Utterly tasteless, but then that's just my 2p.

Yes, I'm not a fan of the 1st one either, though I think the Standard one works. Too much grey/black - they should have gone with the wood effect like the Standard one.

 

[physics34]

I could be wrong, but I think that there is at least an element in new seat design that flows from research into good posture and preventing the onset of back problems by providing a firm and supportive seat.



My complaints are very much focused on the comfort of the seats, but maybe it's fair to say that it's amplified by the rest of the stuff you mention.

The posture issue is all well and good..( i like the posture on the 377/6, 387, 700 seats) but i dont think the movement of the train seems to be taken into account especially the vertical movement which springs will compensate for.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But does it look awful (and I agree it does) simply because there is no colour, that being solvable simply with a set of new seat covers?

I think the problems with the IEP go far beyond the colour of the seats. The original mallard seats were similar shades of brown, as were the refreshed IC70s in GNER's HSTs, but they didn't look like cheap plastic rubbish.

It's not the colour so much as the quality of the finish, especially the tables and the walls. It looks cheap and nasty, just like Hitachi's Javelins also look cheap and nasty. Which, given we're paying top dollar for these trains, is pretty shoddy. You'd think Hitachi could afford better plastic.

 

[broadgage]

My concerns are not so much with colour schemes and the like, these are very subjective and are also readily altered.

Of much greater importance IMHO is the downgrading from proper intercity trains to shorter DMUs.
Mark Hopwood famously stated that passengers did not want underfloor engines, which is exactly what we are getting.
A higher floor with a large engine roaring, rattling and farting underneath the seats is not in my view a proper intercity service.

An intercity train should be gangwayed throughout and be of full length, with first class at one end and steerage at the other, with a buffet in between so that both classes may use this facility.
I cant agree that downgrading catering to only a trolley is an improvement.

A proper intercity train should have ample leg room, I cant agree that cramming in as many seats as possible is an improvement.

A proper intercity train has most seats at tables, the new trains are largely bus style seating, though note that the publicity photographs always show one of the tables.

The majority of the fleet are half length, and whilst the intention is to run them in pairs, the voyager experience strongly suggests that single unit operation will be the norm.
And when a pair of units are run, sods law suggests that the trolley will be in the other portion (no buffet remember)
The train manager when needed to referee disputes over reservations etc. will be in the other portion.
In the highly unlikely event that the Pullman Restaurant service survives the downgrade to DMU operation, then this will only be accessible to half the train (no gangways between units)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not the colour so much as the quality of the finish, especially the tables and the walls. It looks cheap and nasty, just like Hitachi's Javelins also look cheap and nasty. Which, given we're paying top dollar for these trains, is pretty shoddy. You'd think Hitachi could afford better plastic.

Having been on a Javelin a few times I don't get this. If anything they look and feel like slightly higher quality versions of a 350/1 inside.

 

[tbtc]

Roger Ford (who has been moaning about IEP for as long as I can remember) doesn't like the subjective comfort of the seating?

Gosh

Maybe they are comfortable, maybe not - I have no idea - but was anyone expecting a Damascene conversion from one of the biggest critics of the projects?

They look like modern seats to me - with all of the lumbar support/ fire-proof quality that this entails. 1970s seats would never pass modern regulations, so I don't think there was any point in expecting them. TBH no modern train seats feel luxurious (Voyagers, Meridians, Pendolini, Turbostars etc) - such is life. But people's expectations of IEP aren't always realistic...

Seat comfort is one of the most subjective things out there in terms of train design. Regardless of how much care you put into it you're never going to please everyone.

Agreed.

It's like colour (these new seats are too dull/ boring, but some of the same people like the traditional/ conservative Mallard seating - people complain when colour schemes are garish/ brash but also when they are too simple).

Can't please everyone.

I've said it multiple times, its the voyager all over again. Crap seats, to short. Had we ordered all of these with a minimum of 8 coaches with 6 given over to Standard then I should think the pack m in mentalitty might not have been so much of an issue

You've read the specifications to see the lessons learned from the Voyagers?

And will your eight coach IEP work in multiple (in which case you need to find space for 16x26m = 416m platforms), or will they be working singly (in which case that's a lot fewer seats in the Thames Valley compared to a nine/ten coach IEP)?

This was discussed almost exactly a year ago in the main "Class 800" thread, see this page (In fact, this whole thread appears to be little more than an opportunity to air previous jaded arguments):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100841&page=123

In summary, the seats in standard class on the class 800 series trains are a similar design to those fitted in first on the class 700s.

Agreed.

Amazingly, I understand that there are some people who find Voyagers pleasant

They are fine, as long as you've got a seat and a view out of the window.

If you are stood for an hour outside the bogs then they aren't pleasant (been there, done that), but the same could be said of many trains - the vast majority of problems with Voyagers are the lack of seats (not with the seats themselves).

It us very subjective but i dont remember ANYONE complaining about the original IC125 mk3 seats that are sprung, well cushioned and comfortable for all.... except for the damn armrests lol

If this Forum had existed in the 1970s we'd see lots of complaints from the We Fear Change brigade - these multiple units shouldn't be allowed to replace traditional loco haulage like Deltics - it's madness replacing the Deltics from front line service so soon - my idea to use Deltics on the Heart Of Wales - HSTs mean no more flexibility to change train lengths at the drop of a hat - this new thing is the end of the world...

 

[najaB]

Mark Hopwood famously stated that passengers did not want underfloor engines, which is exactly what we are getting.
A higher floor with a large engine roaring, rattling and farting underneath the seats is not in my view a proper intercity service.

The walk-throughs, diagrams and photos which have been posted all support the idea that the floor isn't noticeably higher due to the engine bays. And given that they will be 900hp engines running at 750hp maximum I doubt they will be roaring, rattling or farting too much.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I might slightly prefer ironing boards to fully padded seats, as I can stay in one comfortable position, while for the latter, I have to shuffle around to get into my desired position, and that really disturbs me.

I think that's OK for a relatively short journey, but for a longer journey, having a seat that has more than one way to sit comfortably in it is really vital in my opinion. You're not going to stay frozen in one position for four hours, say (well I wouldn't!).

 

[urpert]

Having been on a Javelin a few times I don't get this. If anything they look and feel like slightly higher quality versions of a 350/1 inside.

Agreed, I've always thought it a shame that the 395's seats haven't made it onto any other modern stock.

 

[Clip]

How anyone on here can write them off before they have even sat on them is a not so surprisingly new low on this forum. If people are going to avoid the trains due to how the seats look or feel then more room for the rest of us. It is simply impossible to please everyone's needs when it comes to seating so why do we have so many threads about it i will never know

I for one like the muted colour scheme hopefully the lighting will be muted too especially for those who suffer from visual stress which is very damaging for them and stops my friend from coming on certain trips with me if they know its going to be a certain class of train.

 

[daikilo]

If this Forum had existed in the 1970s we'd see lots of complaints from the We Fear Change brigade - these multiple units shouldn't be allowed to replace traditional loco haulage like Deltics - it's madness replacing the Deltics from front line service so soon - my idea to use Deltics on the Heart Of Wales - HSTs mean no more flexibility to change train lengths at the drop of a hat - this new thing is the end of the world...

If I recall correctly, the then new 125 seats didn't have springs and nor did the later Mark 2 opens. The foam was deliberately chosen to be firm and with little profiling as research at the time and since has shown it to be the best compromise both physically and hygenically. The initial concept for the APT was netting but that rightly got killed.

 

[daikilo]

Correction, Sir Kenneth Grange proposed the netting seats for the HST initially as a means to save weight.

 

[physics34]

If I recall correctly, the then new 125 seats didn't have springs and nor did the later Mark 2 opens. The foam was deliberately chosen to be firm and with little profiling as research at the time and since has shown it to be the best compromise both physically and hygenically. The initial concept for the APT was netting but that rightly got killed.

i think they did (the cushions themselves, i might be wrong !) in the HST, i distinctively remember looking underneath a unfixed cushion once....

 

[Envoy]

Perhaps they should park one of these for a week at different accessible locations so that people can just sit in it and pass comments. If a lot of people complain about the seats, then they darn well ought to do something about it before they go and build the whole fleet. (We could also inspect the toilet as well).

I wonder if it would be better to have leather seats for everybody as they would be more robust?

Brightly coloured seats can make horrible reflections on the windows. The cream coloured backs of the Voyager seats are particularly bad for reflecting in the windows and thus spoiling the view. This is all the more so when the lights are left always on. Why can’t trains have a sensor on the front and rear that will automatically turn on/off the lights for tunnels?

Regarding seats not having windows due to sliding doors - perhaps the people who just wish to work on their computers should have priority for such seats?

If those coaches with diesel engines underneath are vibrating/noisy, then I can see those who are in the know avoiding such coaches on the non wired sections. Likewise, if the electric powered coaches are noisy, then people will try and avoid them when under the wires.

 

[ScotGG]

It does look very drab. UK designers just seem terrified of their own shadow at the moment. No flair at all - nothing like French, Spanish, Italian or even German modern intercity style.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if it would be better to have leather seats for everybody as they would be more robust?

I hope not, I find them slippy, sweaty and generally unpleasant. Good quality, rich-coloured moquette is the way to go.

 

[najaB]

I wonder if it would be better to have leather seats for everybody as they would be more robust?

Are they, actually? I find leather seats are more likely to get cut/burst than a tough fabric. It's not for no reason that bullet-resistant vests use aramid and Kevlar fabrics.

Why can’t trains have a sensor on the front and rear that will automatically turn on/off the lights for tunnels?

KISS

If those coaches with diesel engines underneath are vibrating/noisy, then I can see those who are in the know avoiding such coaches on the non wired sections. Likewise, if the electric powered coaches are noisy, then people will try and avoid them when under the wires.

From the Hitachi brochure:
5 cars (DPTS + MS + MS + MC + DPTF) - two non-powered coaches.
9 cars (DPTS + MS + MS + TS + MS + TS + MC + MF + DPTF) - four non-powered coaches.

 

[Camden]

It does look very drab. UK designers just seem terrified of their own shadow at the moment. No flair at all - nothing like French, Spanish, Italian or even German modern intercity style.

On the front of the train is proudly emblazoned, "Designed in Japan, Built in Britain".

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does look very drab. UK designers just seem terrified of their own shadow at the moment. No flair at all - nothing like French, Spanish, Italian or even German modern intercity style.

The lighting I think is particularly lazy - you can do some clever stuff with LEDs, but they've stuck with dentist's surgery striplights.

 

[najaB]

On the front of the train is proudly emblazoned, "Designed in Japan, Built in Britain".

I suspect the interior design was done this side of the Pacific. In Britain. London to narrow it down. Great Minster House, 33 Horseferry Road to be precise.

 

[Camden]

Do you have a source for that, versus what is actually written?

 

[najaB]

Do you have a source for that, versus what is actually written?

Yes. From the IEP Train Technical Specification:

The interior elements must follow a common style which when combined as an interior layout shall present a cohesive overall interior style in accordance with the Design Vision Style Guide. The required interior style must be defined by the TSP and shall be subject to approval by the Secretary of State.

The DfT defined the Style Guide and has approval of all proposed designs. So, how do you ensure your design is approved with the minimum of fuss...?

 

[jimm]

Of much greater importance IMHO is the downgrading from proper intercity trains to shorter DMUs.
Mark Hopwood famously stated that passengers did not want underfloor engines, which is exactly what we are getting.

Apart from the two coaches in each five-car set and the four in a nine-car set that, er, don't have underfloor engines...

A higher floor with a large engine roaring, rattling and farting underneath the seats is not in my view a proper intercity service.

Higher than what? Or have I just been imagining having to step up into a Mk3 for 40 years? As has been pointed out umpteen times previously in umpteen threads, the floor height at the doors on IETs is NOT higher than current stock and there is a modest slope from the door area up to the saloons.

An intercity train should be gangwayed throughout and be of full length

Then someone had better tell SNCF, DB et al, who will insist on coupling up pairs of TGVs and ICEs - despite the belief among some posters here that the idea of pairing up Voyagers, IETs or anything else is some unique imposition on UK rail passengers - the majority of whom are not half as obsessed about these things as some of you are. And naturally places like the Cotswold Line and the Cornish main line absolutely do need a 'full-length' train all day, every day, even if the traffic on offer will never get anywhere near filling them outside the peak periods...

A proper intercity train should have ample leg room, I cant agree that cramming in as many seats as possible is an improvement.

So you are yet another person who has yet to set foot in one of these trains, but knows just what the legroom is like...

A proper intercity train has most seats at tables, the new trains are largely bus style seating, though note that the publicity photographs always show one of the tables.

What's a proper intercity train? There's plenty of airline seating on TGVs, ICEs, etc. The seats that always seem to fill up fastest on GWR HSTs in first class these days are the single face to back ones...

The majority of the fleet are half length, and whilst the intention is to run them in pairs, the voyager experience strongly suggests that single unit operation will be the norm.

So, despite GWR stating plain as day that all services in the direction of the main weekday morning and afternoon peak flows in and out of London will be nine-car or 2x5 formations, you know better...

And when a pair of units are run, sods law suggests that the trolley will be in the other portion (no buffet remember)
The train manager when needed to referee disputes over reservations etc. will be in the other portion.

I suppose that since GWR have no idea they will be operating five-car trains all the time, despite being able to call on 35 nine-car 800s and 802s in a couple of years' time, they equally will have no idea it might be an idea to provide at least a couple of onboard staff for trains worked in 2x5 formations...

In the highly unlikely event that the Pullman Restaurant service survives the downgrade to DMU operation, then this will only be accessible to half the train (no gangways between units)

Once again you clearly know better than GWR, who put the following in a brochure handed out at the Class 800 launch at Paddington in August:

Our new trains will host the Pullman on key routes across the network, with our dedicated Pullman crews looking after you throughout your journey with dishes such as Brixham scallops on spiced lentils, Somerset pork belly with fennel and quince, and goats cheese from Glastonbury – all prepared and served at high speed.

And it clearly won't occur to GWR to diagram a nine-car Class 802 or 800 on the Pullman services. In case you're not aware of it, they have to diagram HSTs fitted with the full range of kitchen equipment for Pullman services at the moment, so might just manage to be able to work out a way to get nine-car sets on those diagrams in the future.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Original MkIV coaches had fairly uncomfortable seats in second class, so no change here then

 

[Domh245]

I suspect the interior design was done this side of the Pacific. In Britain. London to narrow it down. Great Minster House, 33 Horseferry Road to be precise.

Interior design was by DCA design in Warwick. Although it'll have been to a DfT specification