IEP postponed

[jon0844]

Who says HSTs aren't green!

 

[The Box Photter]

I thought that the whole idea of privatising the railways was to introduce hard-nosed commercial business acumen into an industry that had previously been seen as non-commercial and therefore non-efficient.

It seems to me that the very thing missing from the privatised railway is the key element in all businesses, that is risk/reward. Those willing to take the greatest risk stand to reap the greatest reward.

I have seen no risk being accepted by the private sector at all in the IEP project as all the manufacturers want to do is sit back and wait for DfT to stump up the cash for them to build unnecessarily complex pieces of traction equipment that will fail as soon as they have to stand up to the rigours of everyday service.

The first manufacturer who offers a design based on proven technology and is willing to offer it for trial service should be given the opportunity to do so. After proper testing in real-life service with real-life maintenance, only then should a contract be issued for squadron production.

It really isn't rocket science, but everyone involved wants to make it as complicated.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I have seen no risk being accepted by the private sector at all in the IEP project as all the manufacturers want to do is sit back and wait for DfT to stump up the cash for them to build unnecessarily complex pieces of traction equipment that will fail as soon as they have to stand up to the rigours of everyday service.

If they are unnecessarily complicated, it is because DfT created an unnecessarily complicated spec. As far as finance is concerned, don't think the deal involves DfT "stumping up cash", only guaranteeing that the rolling stock will be used for a sensible period by an operator, who will lease the rolling stock.

The first manufacturer who offers a design based on proven technology and is willing to offer it for trial service should be given the opportunity to do so. After proper testing in real-life service with real-life maintenance, only then should a contract be issued for squadron production.

It really isn't rocket science, but everyone involved wants to make it as complicated.

Errr, isn't that I was suggesting? As far as proven technology is concerned, most bits of technology are proven in one way or another. The trick is melding the bits together... that's called system integration.

 

[Old Timer]

I thought that the whole idea of privatising the railways was to introduce hard-nosed commercial business acumen into an industry that had previously been seen as non-commercial and therefore non-efficient.

It seems to me that the very thing missing from the privatised railway is the key element in all businesses, that is risk/reward. Those willing to take the greatest risk stand to reap the greatest reward..

That was the whole point of Privatisation but of course Labour decided that it had to dip its nasty little fingers into the revenue stream, and of course true to form with its insatiable control urges had to get involved in the day to day running hence why we now have people of DfT who know sweet FA about much making decisions and creating specifications better made by experienced managers and engineers.

Everybody thinks they know how to run a railway better than the people who do actually run it :roll::roll::roll:

That is why no Railway that is under State control or ownership can ever be successful.

One only has to look at the Countries where the Railways were divested completely from State intervention, and allowed to operate without interference, to see traffic boomiong.

A perfect example is South America where the original Privatsiation concept proposed by Major has seen Railways take off there in leaps and bounds, indeed the one area where literally £100m's are being spent annually is there, indeed the investment in some South American countries makes that in Australia look quite small.

 

[asylumxl]

That was the whole point of Privatisation but of course Labour decided that it had to dip its nasty little fingers into the revenue stream

Are you actually able to write a post without complaining about Labour?

Now, I respect you, and you're far more knowledgeable than I'll ever be. But I really don't see why there is a need to bring Labour vs Tories into every topic.

 

[Chafford1]

If they are unnecessarily complicated, it is because DfT created an unnecessarily complicated spec. As far as finance is concerned, don't think the deal involves DfT "stumping up cash", only guaranteeing that the rolling stock will be used for a sensible period by an operator, who will lease the rolling stock.

Errr, isn't that I was suggesting? As far as proven technology is concerned, most bits of technology are proven in one way or another. The trick is melding the bits together... that's called system integration.

Does the purchase of the Grand Central HST sets from Sovereign Trains by Angel Trains mean that the envisaged Polaris deal is now a dead duck?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Does the purchase of the Grand Central HST sets from Sovereign Trains by Angel Trains mean that the envisaged Polaris deal is now a dead duck?

The original proposal to replace the HSTs over five years with Polaris is looking unlikely, especially as GC has been fortunate enough to secure some of the Class 180 fleet.

However, you never know what the future will bring, as GC develops more routes.

 

[Chafford1]

The original proposal to replace the HSTs over five years with Polaris is looking unlikely, especially as GC has been fortunate enough to secure some of the Class 180 fleet.

However, you never know what the future will bring, as GC develops more routes.

I'm not sure that 'fortunate' and '180' can occupy the same sentence!

Perhaps Ian Yeowart will purchase a few Polaris units for his proposed GNER / GNWR services:

http://www.modern-railways.com/downloads/routemap.pdf

 

[MCR247]

I thought that was the trains the livery was based on

 

[Drsatan]

The original proposal to replace the HSTs over five years with Polaris is looking unlikely, especially as GC has been fortunate enough to secure some of the Class 180 fleet.

However, you never know what the future will bring, as GC develops more routes.

Assuming that GC can get permission from the ORR.

 

[RobShipway]

I think it is in the current Rail magazine where it suggests that rather than buy IEP, money is spent for the HST replacement on buying the Chinese built polaris trains which are cheaper per train than the IEP sets would have costed per unit.

The polaris trains are £800,000 per train whereas the IEP trains were £1.2 Million per train.

As for Technology, we actually all ready had the answer in ths country in the form of the class 89 locomotive that I believe was designed to be used either as a 125mph Diesel or Electric locomotive.

 

[90019]

As for Technology, we actually all ready had the answer in ths country in the form of the class 89 locomotive that I believe was designed to be used either as a 125mph Diesel or Electric locomotive.

Well, the 89 was an AC electric only, unless you mean diesel and electric variations made of them?

Although, I wonder if you're thinking that because someone photoshopped a photo of it so it looked like a diesel. I can't find the pic atm, but I'm sure someone will post a link soon enough.

 

[MCR247]

http://alternativerailways.fotopic.net/p60178653.html
I think thats it

 

[90019]

http://alternativerailways.fotopic.net/p60178653.html
I think thats it

That's the one.

 

[RobShipway]

Class 89 may have been just electric, but if my memory serves me correctly before BR shelved the plans there was talk of building a locomotive that was Diesel/English combined in the same way that Hitachi are suggesting for some of the locomotives involved in IEP.

So that being the case, where is the progress?

 

[jon0844]

Hitachi are advertising their Class 395 trains (as Hitachi) at St Pancras. I wonder why that might be..

 

[royaloak]

I wonder if anybody has asked Adonis if (when) IEP is cancelled will he re-order the diesel units that were cancelled after the IEP was announced?

 

[shinkansen1966]

Sounds like the IEP is dead in water. And an easy way to save cash for the next particularly cash strapped government.

Where does this leave electric rolling stock for the Great Western electrification? Or will this project be "reviewed" and then quietly axed later ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh and one thing is certain: Adonis will not be transport secretary in 3 months time. Even if Labour get re-elected, they'll the usual cabinet shuffle.

In the Summer/Autumn, it'll be quite easy for some political nobody to stand in the Commons and announce that IEP has been shelved. It'll barely get a announced on the news. There'll be far more interesting spending cuts to report on.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think Adonis would refuse to move and they would be stupid to replace one of their few much loved ministers if Labour won. Unforunatley even if only a hung parliament I believe Torys will have the next government and their shadow Transport Minister is useless. Look at her Lords debate when HS2 was announced, she has no grounding in reality.

 

[DjU]

I wonder if anybody has asked Adonis if (when) IEP is cancelled will he re-order the diesel units that were cancelled after the IEP was announced?

The DMU order was cancelled after the Electrification announcement not the IEP one.

The IEP cancellation doesn't hugely effect the DMU and EMU cascade as the IEP primary job was to replace HST. The one area the an IEP cancellation would effect is the cascade of EMU units from the South WCML and ECML.

 

[Pumbaa]

As I posted in the other thread as well, the other thing IEP cancellation will effect could be the ordering of extra 390 vehicles to take all sets up 11 car.

 

[Fudgefrog]

I hope someone can help me. I remember reading a few months ago that Lord Adonis wanted to introduce new "Flying Scotsman" services, and at the time they made a big deal about new trains running the services. Surely, given they were to stay within two years, the first batch of IEP can't now/ could never run them, so what will?

The pendos destined for the WCML?

 

[Geezertronic]

The pendos destined for the WCML?

They already are on the WCML

 

[Fudgefrog]

They already are on the WCML

I thought 5 complete trainsets had been ordered in addition to the added carriages - have these really been delivered and put in service without my knowlege?!

 

[Geezertronic]

I thought 5 complete trainsets had been ordered in addition to the added carriages - have these really been delivered and put in service without my knowlege?!

No but I guess you knew that already. Your original post was not clear that you were talking about new sets. For all I knew, you could have been asking whether the Pendo's were going to follow Virgin in any bid for the ECML, but you put WCML instead. According to the DfT tender document, only 4 new complete sets are going to be procured not 5

Like I tell the missus, when I can read minds, I'll let you know

 

[silentone]

I hope someone can help me. I remember reading a few months ago that Lord Adonis wanted to introduce new "Flying Scotsman" services, and at the time they made a big deal about new trains running the services. Surely, given they were to stay within two years, the first batch of IEP can't now/ could never run them, so what will?

The pendos destined for the WCML?

Adonis wanted to acheive a new Flying Scotsman service. He didn't explicity say by new trains. He wishes the current stock to be able to run from Edinburgh - London in record time - which has been done in the past with the current rolling stock. It could still be acheived today but there is that much traffic on the route that making it happen is almost impossible.

 

[Fudgefrog]

No but I guess you knew that already. Your original post was not clear that you were talking about new sets. For all I knew, you could have been asking whether the Pendo's were going to follow Virgin in any bid for the ECML, but you put WCML instead. According to the DfT tender document, only 4 new complete sets are going to be procured not 5

Like I tell the missus, when I can read minds, I'll let you know

Sorry for the confusion!!

Adonis wanted to acheive a new Flying Scotsman service. He didn't explicity say by new trains. He wishes the current stock to be able to run from Edinburgh - London in record time - which has been done in the past with the current rolling stock. It could still be acheived today but there is that much traffic on the route that making it happen is almost impossible.

I see - I'd assumed "Speedy new trains", coupled with "10% more trains going into London in the morning rush hour" generally meant new trains to increase capacity (Quotes from this article).

I guess, like you say, they meant new services with the existing stock.



So, if IEP is canned/ postponed indefinitely what do we think will (realistically) happen to the HST fleets over the coming years? Surely if IEP doesn't happen the chances of electric sets on the GMWL and MML are highly unlikely, although I'm sure the previously-announced electrification will still take place. New class 222-type units ordered?

 

[Lampshade]

I think while 222s are good on the MML, Inverness to London on a DMU would be torture, especially sitting over the engine although that said, 222s aren't half bad.

Didn't they have a like-for-like replacement of the HST lined in the works at some point?

 

[DjU]

Sorry for the confusion!!
I see - I'd assumed "Speedy new trains", coupled with "10% more trains going into London in the morning rush hour" generally meant new trains to increase capacity (Quotes from this article).

I guess, like you say, they meant new services with the existing stock.

It more a case of that story taking select quotes from the same press briefing and putting them together when they actually refer to slightly different things.

EC from 2011 will be using "new" trains - the 5x 180s - but that's primarily for the Lincoln services, so thats your new trains and capacity enhancements.

Any Flying Scotsman however would utilise existing stock.

 

[Fudgefrog]

It more a case of that story taking select quotes from the same press briefing and putting them together when they actually refer to slightly different things.

EC from 2011 will be using "new" trains - the 5x 180s - but that's primarily for the Lincoln services, so thats your new trains and capacity enhancements.

Any Flying Scotsman however would utilise existing stock.

Thanks for explaining!



Another question for you all (as you're so good at answering questions )... how much is the (estimated, obviously) cost thought to be for IEP, presumably per carriage, compared to trains such as the 220s/221s/222s and 390s? And are the 390s able to reach 140mph (theoretically) without tilting (should the route not be windy enough to need tilting trains)?