IEP postponed

[John @ home]

Rolling stock

Statement by: Rt Hon Lord Andrew Adonis, Secretary of State for Transport

26 February 2010

The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): In order to replace Britain’s ageing fleet of Intercity 125 Trains and to invest in capacity and passenger journey improvements on the East Coast and Great Western Main Lines, the Government began the Intercity Express Programme procurement in 2007. The Programme’s key objective has been to achieve value for money across the lifetime of the trains, taking account of costs right across the rail industry.

Good progress has been made, including the announcement of Agility Trains as preferred bidder in February 2009. Over the course of the procurement, however, there has been a reduction in the capacity of the debt market to support the transaction as originally envisaged, and passenger growth has also slowed. In addition the Government and Network Rail have committed to electrify the Great Western Main Line from 2016. The Government has identified appropriate adjustments to the original programme to take account of these developments. This has inevitably extended the contractual negotiations, which are not yet complete and would not be so until mid-March at the earliest.

The negotiations are for a contract of nearly 30 years, a multi-billion pound spend over the course of many Parliaments. In all the circumstances, the Government does not believe it would be appropriate to enter into this particular contract in the immediate run up to a general election. To ensure that a decision is taken at the beginning of the next Parliament on the basis of the fullest evaluation, the Secretary of State has today asked Sir Andrew Foster, former controller of the Audit Commission, to provide an independent assessment of the value for money of the Programme and the credibility and the value for money of any alternatives which meet the Programme’s objectives. It is critical for rail passengers that the right long-term decision is made about the next generation of inter-city trains, which will have a life of 30 years or more.

The existing rolling stock dates back to the 1970s and needs to be replaced. If Sir Andrew Foster reaffirms that the Intercity Express Programme is better than the alternatives, the Secretary of State’s intention would be to proceed with the project in the next Parliament, subject to satisfactory resolution of all the contractual issues.

Sir Andrew Foster will consult Agility Trains, the Department, the relevant Train Operating Companies, the Office of Rail Regulation, Network Rail, passenger groups and the devolved Scottish and Welsh administrations.

Sir Andrew Foster will report within three months. The report and the Government’s response will be published and reported to Parliament. A copy of the letter from the Secretary of State to Sir Andrew Foster has been laid in the Libraries of the House.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/adonis20100226

 

[E&W Lucas]

Good news all round!

The IEP is over - complex, and tries to tick too many competing boxes.

Why not just build a Mk V coach & DVT, and a suitable diesel or electric loco to haul it, dependent on destination? Cheaper, flexible and if one coach goes down, you don't loose the whole formation.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Cheaper, the root cause of so much of the woes afflicting the UK train industry

 

[Geezertronic]

Why not just build a Mk V coach & DVT, and a suitable diesel or electric loco to haul it, dependent on destination? Cheaper, flexible and if one coach goes down, you don't loose the whole formation.

Surely a like for like replacement is not progress? Won't do anything if time savings want to be made. Someone in power should take a look at the WCML because for all the moans and groans about the Pendolinos, there is finally visible progress that can be seen by anyone with non-blinkered vision.

 

[gordonthemoron]

or the Javelins

 

[ChrisCooper]

What's so revolutionary about the Pendolino? It's an EMU, and EMUs have been around since the late 19th century. It tilts, tilting trains have been around since the 70s. There is nothing stopping a loco hauled HST replacement tilting. The main "revolution" in high speed trains recently has been the underfloor engine, like on the 22X series and the 180s, yet it is exactly these sort of designs that IEP has been trying to avoid. What journey time savings would IEP provide? I've seen figures quoted for journey time savings on the electrified GWML compared to HSTs, but there is no reason an electric hauled train couldn't give saying too, and more efficiently due to not having to drag a heavy diesel engine around under the wires. I've seen nothing official relating to performance of the bi-mode on diesel, but most informed estimates suggest that it would be hard pushed to equal current HST performance (due to the single engine). Anyway, what is a few minutes here or there. If performance is that important, they need to electrify, the age of high performance diesels is over, they are too expensive to run. If fuel was cheap, we could use gas turbines to give very high power-weight ratios and electric performance, but it's not.

 

[gordonthemoron]

are there any loco hauled tilting trains? All those I've been on have underfloor engines (electric & diesel)

 

[Ivo]

It's about time someone announced this. From the complaints about having a Japanese winner of the contract - considering that their rolling stock market is effectively shut-off to the rest of the world - to the ridiculous and spiralling costs of the whole project, the whole ting has been little short of a farce. But I could have guessed that Labour would leave it until the last minute to announce as much. A forgotten topic that someone stumled upon with only weeks of their reign left... "Put out a notice - IEP SUSPENDED."

With regards to other points, I agree that the Pendos are not particularly special. Whilst I will admit that they bring various little-known [to our public anyway] touches to the system, such as tilting and 125mph EMUs, they have nothing especially revolutionary about them. It would only have been a matter of time before the coming together of these ideas was implemented anyway.
And just for the record, I personally can't name any loco-hauled tilters. EDIT: Obviously, as jopsuk's post would suggest, I'm still a bit weak with foreign units.

 

[jopsuk]

Spanish Talgo (also exported to the US), Canadian Bombardier LRC, Swedish X2- and of course the APT-P didn't have underfloor propulsion, plus an experimental tilting TGV, the experimental Bombardier North America "Jet Train"- also the ACELA Express- plenty of tirlting trains either "properly" loco-hauled or with non-tilting power cars.

 

[gordonthemoron]

as far as Pendolinos are concerned, the Virgin ones look much nicer than earlier models used in Italy

 

[tbtc]

What's so revolutionary about the Pendolino?

They have the smallest windows and biggest over-provision of First Class seats of any train in the UK ever.

Apart from that though...

 

[John @ home]

They have the ... biggest over-provision of First Class seats of any train in the UK ever.

The 1960s Blue Pullman trains had a higher proportion of First Class seats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pullman_(train)

 

[starrymarkb]

I've seen nothing official relating to performance of the bi-mode on diesel, but most informed estimates suggest that it would be hard pushed to equal current HST performance (due to the single engine). Anyway, what is a few minutes here or there. If performance is that important, they need to electrify, the age of high performance diesels is over, they are too expensive to run. If fuel was cheap, we could use gas turbines to give very high power-weight ratios and electric performance, but it's not.

Its specced for 90mph on Diesel as apparently routes don't have much higher speed (apart from most of the line from Reading to Newton Abbot being 100/110mph and not due for wiring)

Bi-mode trains, in self-powered mode, will usually be operating on routes where operation is
typically limited to 90 mph or less, and where the lower power and energy consumption of the
IEP is compensated for by the higher acceleration performance that the distributed traction
capability provides - particularly in poor weather conditions when the rails are slippery.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DfT_IEPQand AFinal2008.pdf

 

[EWS 58038]

I am currently in my nightshifts so don't have the time nor energy to get the march edition of "Modern Railways" yet. But if I have to believe Captain Deltic the Class 43 and 91 will be there for many years to come.

The latest news about the Frankenstein train is probably one of the best rail evnts of 2010.

 

[Geezertronic]

The Pendolino is nothing "revolutionary" but the improvements that have come about since their introduction on the WCML and since the upgrade was completed (if that is what you can call it) compared to loco hauled services is obvious, especially to the Northern destinations.

If the powers that be had any brains, they would have dropped IEP for an electric or diesel concept that is proven and in service at the moment (or improved versions learning the mistakes made previously) and dropped bi-mode altogether.

 

[SWT Driver]

Why spend all that money re-engining the HSTs if they were going to be withdrawn soon? The whole IEP thing was just so much hot air to waste even more money on, why dont the government get all the RAILWAY managers, not poxy civil servants trying to be managers, in and let them sort the problem out.
It was a fairly safe bet that this would be cancelled the same as the 1300 coaches that SHOULD have been in service by now.
This government can talk the talk but they know bugger all about anything and couldnt make a sensible decision to save their necks! Remember the talk of hydrogen fuel cell powered trains?
Now we hear that the government will give you £5000 if you buy an all electric car from next year and they will be putting in 15000? charging points for you. Now I will believe that when I see it!

 

[Geezertronic]

Now we hear that the government will give you £5000 if you buy an all electric car from next year and they will be putting in 15000? charging points for you. Now I will believe that when I see it!

They'll put tax and VAT on that you know

 

[Fincra5]

Making loco hauled services again is just a step in the wrong direction. A multiple unit makes much more sence.

It is possible to make them hybrid. Or follow the VT example- a 57 hauling a 390.

 

[SWT Driver]

Oh yeah multiple units are so much better, I mean it only takes 24 hours to add a coach to a Pendolino, FGW can add a coach to a HST (for the luggage) to run to Newquay in less than 1 hour!
If you had a choice would you travel in peace and quiet in a mark 3 coach, or a voyager coach with the noise and vibration from the underfloor engine?
Yep units are much better :roll:
Back when I were a lad most trains on a summer weekend were strengthened and there were rakes that were stored most of the year and only came out in summer hauled by freight locos, now with the much improved railways we dont have any spare stock at all, theres progress!

 

[Pumbaa]

They have the smallest windows and biggest over-provision of First Class seats of any train in the UK ever.

Apart from that though...

And the biggest kitchen in Europe They're still shouting out about that one!


In all seriousness though, this is good news. Hopefully it'll be dropped quietly after the election - it's been a farce from start to finish. What should be done is a big nationwide electrification projects, retire the life-expired Pacers and Sprinters (by cascading new build such as 168-185) while launching an extensive new family of units to replace everything up to 32x. That way, we get new electric units to carry on for the next 30 years (or not!) and HSTs are replaced by new electric trains.

Too simple isn't it? For those of you with rose-tinted specs on re Loco-hauled trains, simply wont happen. The availability of MU is far superior, operational difficulties are less and obviously can be cheaper if looked after well. No-one (TOC wise) would invest in loco-hauled if the option of MU is available.

 

[Geezertronic]

I mean it only takes 24 hours to add a coach to a Pendolino, FGW can add a coach to a HST (for the luggage) to run to Newquay in less than 1 hour!

I don't want to start another HST debate but you cannot really compare a Class 43 x 2 + coaches rake to a Class 390 Pendolino

If you had a choice would you travel in peace and quiet in a mark 3 coach, or a voyager coach with the noise and vibration from the underfloor engine?

Why couldn't the next generation of "Intercity" diesel units be based on the HST configuration? The commuter diesel units would probably have to stay DMU/DEMU based though

Back when I were a lad most trains on a summer weekend were strengthened and there were rakes that were stored most of the year and only came out in summer hauled by freight locos, now with the much improved railways we dont have any spare stock at all, theres progress!

Welcome to privitisation

 

[WatcherZero]

I suppose this will delay the rolling stock plan even further!

This also screws the chances of the Intercitys being used as a intermediate capacity relief in the north inter-regional journeys until new DEMU or the delayed cascaded EMU arrived in numbers.

 

[j0hn0]

I, like many, can't understand the kerfuffle

For the IC225 replacements, not sure why this is such a hard decision. Replace them with 395's but with doors at the ends of the coaches. For the East Coast HST's just use 395s again but loco haul them north to Aberdeen or Inverness from Edinburgh.

After this, electrify the GWML and do the same, depending on where they are electrifying to.

I can see the point of bi-mode but as others have pointed out, the figures just dont add up.

It is clear though that when a train is under the wires, then it must use those wires or else it is a criminal waste of a resource. On the routes that are mostly electric up the east coast, they should all be EMU's that are then hauled to their final destination. Perhaps invest in some Traxx locos from europe.

the Uk is so far behind europe on electrification that these decisions should have had to be made. Should've been all electric mainlines by now, aah past glories eh?

 

[DjU]

I suppose this will delay the rolling stock plan even further!

This also screws the chances of the Intercitys being used as a intermediate capacity relief in the north inter-regional journeys until new DEMU or the delayed cascaded EMU arrived in numbers.

Um, considering the chances of that was 0% in the first place its not really screwed much in that respect

 

[asylumxl]

Why don't the government burn Rose tinted spectacled loco-loving rail enthusiasts and use them as fuel ? It's a renewable energy source.

 

[90019]

If you had a choice would you travel in peace and quiet in a mark 3 coach, or a voyager coach with the noise and vibration from the underfloor engine?

The Voyager every time. I find them much more comfortable, and I don't find the noise or vibrations at all intrusive. When I was last on one, I barely noticed them.

 

[route:oxford]

Isn't it about time that coaches were "intelligent" or at least there was a form of "intelligence" in the design?

It's all very well yearning for the golden days when an extra coach could be summoned from a yard and hooked up to a train with 10 minutes notice, but across the network even within the current HST fleet there is no longer such a thing as a Standardised-Standard or Standardised-First class coach...

So may I respectfully suggest the following...

First class carriages all be a unified format, all with disabled loo.

Standard class carriages should always be "paired" one coach with "normal loo", the other with disabled loo.

Then, of course, there are the "extras"

Leading driving units, with or without passenger accommodation & buffet.

Essentially, the "train" should be put together and be able to work out, with, some limited "intelligence" that...

I am composed of 10 cars with locomotive.

There are 2 first class coaches.
There is a buffet with first class accommodation.
There are 3 standard "pairs".
There is a DVT with standard accommodation.

The set should then be able to attribute coach numbers and seating allocations - even if a first class or buffet coach is in the wrong place...

There should be no excuse for the whole thing having a tantrum and needing the care and attention of a programmer or computer engineer just to slip in an extra pair of standards or first class coach to accommodate expected crowds or even a spare buffet as part of a coaching stock movement...

 

[WatcherZero]

Um, considering the chances of that was 0% in the first place its not really screwed much in that respect

Not neccesarily, word on the grapevine is next month Adonis/GMITA will announce that the 30 or so East Coast carriages sat doing nothing will be put in service in the area before the end of the year.

 

[philjo]

Had to laugh while reading an article about this in the Evening Standard on the train coming home this evening.

There is a large photo with the article - the caption underneath says "High Speed: one of the 125 Fleet"
Needless to say the train shown in the photo is not an HST - it is a brand new class 395 unit!!

 

[royaloak]

What 30 or so East Coast carriages?