Dieseldriver
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Depends on the manager/company in all honesty
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Incident at Enfield Town 12/10/21
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RailUK Forums
Russel
Established Member
Even within the same company it will vary by depot depending on the local managements attitude and how they interpret the company policy's.
Which is not acceptable, especially in a safety critical industry such as the railway. Company policies are intended to be applied fairly and consistently across the organisation - that’s the whole purpose of having them.
Good reasons:
a. For having a union to ensure to help ensure consistency and individuals/depots, and
b. For the company to ensure that only appropriate people are put into management roles in the first place.
Fatigue is a massive issue which contributes to all great many operational incidents, but is all too often swept under the carpet. See the Croydon tram disaster for the ultimate worse case scenario.
theageofthetra
On Moderation
I understand this also happens in the building industry.
Sly Old Fox
Member
No matter how fatigued I felt I would never call in and say I was unfit to drive. That’s asking for trouble.
NSEWonderer
Established Member
But this to some degree is the issue that has lead to many serious accidents not just in railway but Aviation. Its ones duty to manage fatigue but also to let known before sign on if they feel fatigued to a degree that may endanger the journey.
Problem is different companies, management can often pressure workers out of doing such a thing because of all the changes to the cog work it may cost in reorganisation.
Prevention is always better than cure I say but a lot of companies won't learn this till its time to cure.
The only other option I can think of if one isn't calling in or coming directly to their said depot to mention it in person is if you're lucky enough to have some work buddies who you can swap day diagrams with at last minute and then hopefully by then be well rested.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Whilst alcohol doesn't appear to be a factor in this incident, it's worth noting that cocaine use reduces the liver's ability to process and break down alcohol. This means the alcohol stays in the body for longer meaning you'll fail a test when without the Colombian marching powder you'd have sobered up. I'm sure all drivers on here know how serious alcohol and drug use is taken within the industry, but there's little talk of how the two can interact with each other to exacerbate the effects.
A couple of things that haven't been mentioned much:
The response a member of staff receives when reporting fatigue/unfitness will presumably depend a lot on their previous absence record. If it's someone who never goes off sick or is late and is consistently reliable, then presumably it'll be taken seriously, however if it's one of the depot skivers (and I'm sure every depot has some), it's more likely to be treated with skepticism.
Secondly, I feel it's a bit strange that the default position is that we rotate between lates and earlies every week, or in some cases every two weeks. The sleep pattern changes, especially lates to earlies due to the human body having a 25-26 hour body clock, can be very challenging. I'd have thought it more logical to split each link into earlies and lates sub-links and if there are vacancies in both, ask for preference when entering the link, otherwise a position is filled with a waiting list for transfers. Once I'm productive at my current depot, I'm planning on putting the word out to try and get a permanent swap for me to work lates.
The response a member of staff receives when reporting fatigue/unfitness will presumably depend a lot on their previous absence record. If it's someone who never goes off sick or is late and is consistently reliable, then presumably it'll be taken seriously, however if it's one of the depot skivers (and I'm sure every depot has some), it's more likely to be treated with skepticism.
Secondly, I feel it's a bit strange that the default position is that we rotate between lates and earlies every week, or in some cases every two weeks. The sleep pattern changes, especially lates to earlies due to the human body having a 25-26 hour body clock, can be very challenging. I'd have thought it more logical to split each link into earlies and lates sub-links and if there are vacancies in both, ask for preference when entering the link, otherwise a position is filled with a waiting list for transfers. Once I'm productive at my current depot, I'm planning on putting the word out to try and get a permanent swap for me to work lates.
matt_world2004
Established Member
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It is not the first serious incident on the tfl Network caused by fatigue in recent history and with a gla report highlighting 17% of bus drivers falling asleep at the wheel . TFL has taken a see no evil ,hear no evil attitude towards working time rules. Or pushing staff right upto the limit of what is legally possible
No attempt to comply with Privados del Sindicato Comisiones Obreras v Tyco Integrated Security SL (2015) working time law case for those engaged in remote sign on.
Particularly in the bus industry operators are using mechanisms to conceal hours that bus drivers are working. A popular trick is to have a bus driver at two different garages ,each with their own record keeping systems and getting a driver to sign a declaration to say that their duty does not break working time law. Even though both garages are run by the same company or companies which are nominally different eg Arriva London North Buses and Arriva London South Buses
Sometimes even within the same garage they keep seperate records for rail replacement duties and fixed scheduled route duties
Back in 2019 I know there was one driver doing a rail replacement bus duty that finished at 12:30am Monday morning. Then he was booking on for a regularly scheduled route shift at 6:30 am Monday morning. This was reported to our managers who did nothing about it
The rail industry likes to put drivers on rosters that takes them upto the physical limit of what is legally possible; and for long periods of time .
Gateline staff at working upto the limit of what is legally possible at many overground and Elizabeth line stations,They often have a group of stations they work at .This would mean the Tyco ruling would apply yet is often ignored.
Customer service assistants during rail replacement bus duties often work 12 hour shifts at remote locations. .Again the tyco ruling would apply but is ignored. Same with the land sheriffs security guards.
I know of some non safety critical elements within TfL such as RPIs where some departments break working time law on average every two weeks particularly in relation to the Tyco case and for those that do not have a fixed sign on location
No attempt to comply with Privados del Sindicato Comisiones Obreras v Tyco Integrated Security SL (2015) working time law case for those engaged in remote sign on.
Particularly in the bus industry operators are using mechanisms to conceal hours that bus drivers are working. A popular trick is to have a bus driver at two different garages ,each with their own record keeping systems and getting a driver to sign a declaration to say that their duty does not break working time law. Even though both garages are run by the same company or companies which are nominally different eg Arriva London North Buses and Arriva London South Buses
Sometimes even within the same garage they keep seperate records for rail replacement duties and fixed scheduled route duties
Back in 2019 I know there was one driver doing a rail replacement bus duty that finished at 12:30am Monday morning. Then he was booking on for a regularly scheduled route shift at 6:30 am Monday morning. This was reported to our managers who did nothing about it
The rail industry likes to put drivers on rosters that takes them upto the physical limit of what is legally possible; and for long periods of time .
Gateline staff at working upto the limit of what is legally possible at many overground and Elizabeth line stations,They often have a group of stations they work at .This would mean the Tyco ruling would apply yet is often ignored.
Customer service assistants during rail replacement bus duties often work 12 hour shifts at remote locations. .Again the tyco ruling would apply but is ignored. Same with the land sheriffs security guards.
I know of some non safety critical elements within TfL such as RPIs where some departments break working time law on average every two weeks particularly in relation to the Tyco case and for those that do not have a fixed sign on location
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theageofthetra
On Moderation
What I can't fathom is what are the unions doing about it?
Why for example do we have early trains being driven at the end of a night shift, when there is no operational reason to do so. They are not even the first train out.
Similarly we have jobs finishing on lates at 02.20 which could be done by the night shift.
There seems to be absolutely no impetus to change this kind of ridiculous practice either from the industry nor the unions. What I'd like to know is why?
gravitystorm
Member
The sentencing has now been handed down - 16 weeks imprisonment. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66137723
(The article says the driver plead guilty to the charge, as opposed to being found guilty at a trial).
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bramling
Veteran Member
Difficult to have sympathy here. Indeed failing the D&A test will likely have served to completely overshadow any legitimate questions the incident might otherwise have thrown up regarding shiftworker fatigue.
InkyScrolls
On Moderation
What an idiot. That's his career thrown away, for what? A quick thrill.
To be honest. If what I have been told is true he won't care about the career and it wasn't his main one.
InkyScrolls
On Moderation
Hmm, fair enough!
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