Incident at Holland Park

Discussion in 'London Underground' started by Antman, 28 Aug 2013.

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  1. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Established Member

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    Indeed, from http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/130825_holland_park.cfm

     
  2. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    I'm genuinely amazed that LUL stock is not equipped with any form of emergency egress (i.e. door release) facility; I would have imagined that such a feature would be mandatory. Yes they run in tunnels where there is often no space to leave a train through the exterior doors, but as this incident seems to suggest, if something happens and a train is in a station, partly or fully, then passengers are effectively trapped when there would otherwise be a clear escape route. I wouldn't much fancy my chances of escape through an end door from the middle of a busy train!
     
  3. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    Tube stock do have egress devices, which releases 2 doors on a carriage. There are no egress devices inside, which I imagine was because a) there isn't much space, and b)they don't want doors released in the tunnel by some vandals, or other miscreants.
     
  4. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    But tube stock instead has unlocked doors between carriages all carriages and an emergency open on driving cab doors and a front end door so people can get off via the front and back easily. Some mainline stock has emergency side door egress but block ends and absolutely no way of accessing the driving cabs without a 21key.

    Plus, unlike the mainline, all tube stations are manned (I believe?) and so, as happened here at holland park, staff on the station can release the doors from outside.
     
  5. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    I suppose, but LUL station staffing seems to be a constant source of scare stories and disputes. If a train genuinely was ablaze, I wouldn't want to be stuck in a middle car somewhere with the only means of escape being to join a queue for the end door. Even if opening the side doors just meant some air I'd rather they were open than being effectively sealed inside the length of the train. In reality I suppose a serious fire between stations would almost definitely result in mass fatalities, but nevertheless I'm still suprised at a lack of emergency egress mechanism on any train.

    As for mainline stuff, I'd expect most people to go for the bodyside doors rather than try and exit through the cabs, there ought to be enough space in most heavy rail tunnels to be able to bail out. Out of curiosity, on Thameslink stock with mandatory nose end doors (319 etc) is there an emergency access for the cab-saloon doors?
     
  6. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    As you say, with a major fire there is little that can be done. Most work is spent on preventing it, not dealing with it.

    On the NCL we are told that incase of a mid tunnel fire there is nothing we can do and are instructed to make a PA telling people to use the end cab doors to leave , put the ladder down on the front door, short circuit bar if you have time and then along with the passengers your side of the fire, get out. Let those the other side of the fire sort themselves out.

    Basically there is no point in trying to be a hero and no way if getting past the fire so it's really a case of every person in their own.
     
  7. Murphyen

    Murphyen Member

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    Is it my imagination, or have fire extinguishers recently been removed the ends of the cars of 95 stock?
     
  8. causton

    causton Established Member

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    I know they have on other stock, as they were abused and the trains were vandalised using them (spraying over seats, smashing glass etc)... now I believe they are in cabs?
     
  9. Mojo

    Mojo Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    Fire extinguishers were removed from the saloons of all Underground trains around 10 or so years ago; they are still in the cabs however.
     
  10. Trainfan344

    Trainfan344 Established Member

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    RAIB are appealing for Witnesses of this incident to come forwards.

     
  11. simple simon

    simple simon Member

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    I was not there but having seen the youtube of the event am pleased that RAIB are investigating.

    The panic and desperation showed by the passengers was palpable.

    In case I incur the wrath of anyone I won't say how its done, but although only a passenger on the system I do know how to release one pair of doors on each car. But it can only be done from the platform, and anyway no-one there knew what to do. I'm now 53 and learnt when I was a schoolboy, probably when watching the station staff using this door release control.

    It is a conundum, as there are those who would abuse this facility if they knew how.

    Simon
     
  12. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Established Member

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    From the video it is apparent that a member of staff performed this function (post #5).
     
    Last edited: 25 Oct 2013
  13. tunster

    tunster Member

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    This is general issue with weekend service on LU. The drivers don't tend to be sharp in responding to incidents or communicating with passengers. Although not on the same emergency level; I got on a Victoria train from Stockwell. We got to Pimlico and we didnt move for at least 15 minutes. No announcement, nothing. So people started to go down to the driver cab to ask what on earth was going on. From talking to the station attendant who managed to get info from the driver, there was an issue at the next station. The station attendant has to encourage the driver to put an announcement out.

    During the week, we'd of been told and line suspended within 10 minutes (which is what happened eventually). But if we'd got told the second it happened, we'd of all made our way sooner to try get other trains. If this incident had happened at during the commuter week, it would of been not as bad.

    Surely the driver would known via the emergency panel in effected cab if they'd used that to talk to him? Seems a bit weird it took so long to get the doors opened.
     
  14. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    What an absolute load of rubbish. Hardly worth the effort it took to post.

    The staff are the same weekday or weekend. I'm interested in you providing evidence that this incident at holland park would be any different in the weekday, even in the rush hour as I doubt very much it would make any difference.

    Sounds like the driver who didn't announce on the example you gave during a weekend was either just in a bad mood or a bad egg. If he had been driving during the week and that had happened I doubt he'd act differently.

    As for 2 way comms passenger- driver, I have had many passcom activations and never spoken to the person as they pull it and don't realise they can talk to us so I'm saying 'hello, can you hear me' down the passcom and no one is listening or speaking back. Plus what is this in cab 'emergency panel' you speak of? Is it a magical computer that tells drivers exactly what the problem is as I'm afraid in the real world they don't exist.

    It's already been stated that the driver can't open doors when the train is in the tunnel and would be dealing with control and trying to diagnose the fault in the cab. There is no indication in any train cab that tells the driver EXACTLY what is happening, we have to recognise various indications and use a process of illimination to detect a problem. Considering holland park has no escalator I would guess it takes longer for station staff to get down to the platforms if in the control room or upstairs and looking at the video as soon as staff arrived on the platform they opened the doors straight away.

    Sorry but your post is offensive rubbish with sweeping generalisations and no body of factual evidence, purely anecdotal and seems to be more about staff bashing (you clearly have no idea what any of the staffs jobs involve or how trains/the railway works) than adding anything useful.
     
  15. tunster

    tunster Member

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    Woah, calm down. That's my general observations from a passenger perspective. However, considering I have seen train drivers with their feet up whilst in the cab, I do question the attitude and attention some drivers take. Of course, that's probably the minority and I've only ever seen it at the weekend. I can understand the explanations of why this happened; I was just questioning why the driver couldn't over-ride the doors from the cab in that situation.

    That's what I refer to as the emergency panel (as you say... passcom - I'm clearly not a driver or work for the LU :p). Please don't make any assumptions about me thanks. :D
     
  16. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    Feet up on the desk? I nearly always drive 365s with a foot up on the dash, same With 377s. many drivers do the same. It's just comfortable. When you are sitting in the cab for 6-8 hours a day you may as well sit comfortably. It's hardly a poor attitude or lack of attention thanks very much. I am very good at my job and have a very professional attitude but see no problem whatsoever in resting a foot on the desk.

    The driver won't release doors out of a station unless he knows what is happening, think about it, all he knew was that he brakes had gone on and that the passenger alarm had been activated. Hardly a reason to put an emergency door release up. I certainly don't release the train doors every time the brakes apply suddenly. Infact I'd probably be sacked if I did.
     
  17. tunster

    tunster Member

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    For one, that's pretty worrying that's even allowed. Especially when you're carrying hundreds of passengers at peak. I'm happy to say I did mention it on twitter and TfL did want to know when I saw the driver. So I guess it is frowned upon. Anyway, that's not the issue here and I'm not criticising you personally. Please do your job how you please. My guess is you're a National Rail driver by the sounds of the models you drive. Maybe different rules apply but if your seat isn't comfortable, that's another issue altogether.

    One question here; if there was a real fire, surely they'd be major consequences in this instance? Surely the drivers have contact with the station control room? They could give guidance to open the doors from their security cameras if the protocol is to not open the doors after moving away from the station until told to do so? Surely the driver would be held partly responsible if people were killed/injured with a real fire incident? Maybe there's an oversight in how this situation is dealt with as there's no way to open the doors from the inside.
     
  18. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    Sorry but it's difficult talking to someone who is so argumentative yet clearly has no idea what they are on about!

    Tell me why it is dangerous for a train driver to drive with their feet up on the desk please? I'd think its more important that the driver is comfortable enough to concentrate and do their job properly? You are criticising the driver with no idea how to do his job and if he can safely do it with feet up then so be it. Concentrate on your own job and life, stop trying to stick your nose in where it's not needed. Why bother reporting him on twitter? Just trying to cause a scene and get an in I cent driver into trouble.

    Unless you can tell us all why it's dangerous to drive a train with a foot on the dashboard?

    As for a fire, the platform staff can open the doors that are on the platform, infact exactly what they did here, watch the youtube clip. Station staff turn up and open the doors externally to let people off. You don't want to open side doors in a tunnel, there isn't room and people may try to evacuate from them and get stuck then burn to death. Tube trains have nose end doors. You use them to evacuate in a fire.

    The driver would not be held at all responsible for deaths in a fire for not opening doors providing he followed procedure which I am yet to see evidence that he didn't here.

    So please think before you post. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to how drivers do their jobs, trying to criticise how they sit In their chairs etc...it's incredibly offensive and not needed. Please tell me what you do for a living and I'll tell you how to do your job better without having a single idea what I'm on about.
     
  19. tunster

    tunster Member

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    Unprofessional, could be dangerous if the driver is caught off guard because feet on the dash means relaxed then can equal not concentrating. If I had my feet on the desk in an office area where the public can enter; I'd probably be sacked. No excuse for a train driver and I'll happily keep reporting them on the off chance. It wasn't as if I'm on purposely looking at all. Just couldn't believe what I saw and sorry you disagree.

    I did watch the video. The platform staff didn't turn up until quite late on into the incident (I guess the video doesn't show the start) as they had to get down the escalators. I'm aware of the nose end doors. In this instance, it was clear the event shocked people and time is critical. There should never of been someone so desperate to jump through the gaps of the train cabs. That's my opinion and I can see why it happened based on what others have said above.

    You're clearly not calm enough to answer sensibly. I'll just wait until next person wants to answer more politely. Please take it privately if you have any issues with me personally.
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2013
  20. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    My issue with you is that you have not got the slightest idea what you are talking about. Sorry but it's clear from your post.

    Feet in the desk are fine. Not dangerous, hardly unprofessional. I have been driving for many years with my feet on the dash, never had an incident or near miss caused by it. Report it as much as you like but you won't find any drivers being disciplined for it. I have driven with my manager next to me with a foot up , I have even driven with the company MD in my cab with me with my feet up. The vast majority of 365 and similar train drivers do it because it's the only way to get comfy on board.

    I assure you that me putting a foot on the desk does not lead to me being too relaxed and being caught off guard. You clearly have never driven a train or done my job so don't have a clue what you are on about. I have and I do know what I'm talking about. I put a foot on the dash to get comfortable and that helps me concentrate. It's not dangerous. No incident on the railway has ever been caused by the driver putting their foot up. Get over it.

    Sorry but if you are going to keep reporting it it just shows that you have nothing better to do with your time than sticking your nose in where not needed. I assure you no driver will be disciplined or even spoken to about it as a result of your tweeting to carry on if you like but you are wasting your time-although at least it gives the twitter operator and driver managers a good laugh! Of course if you put your feet on an office desk you would get into trouble for it-it's completely different to a train!

    THERE IS NOTHING WRONG OR DANGEROUS WITH FEET ON THE DASHBOARD OF A TRAIN. END OF.

    Sorry if I seem not calm about this but I'm sick to death of trolls coming onto this forum and, like yourself, trying to tell those of us who work in the industry how to do our jobs all the time when they clearly have no idea whatsoever what is involved in the job. It's clear that you don't have the foggiest idea what you are on about and it's just bringing this otherwise interesting and useful forum down. Unfortunately too many threads are descending into this kind of thing because of posters like yourself trolling and attacking rail staff who have clearly done nothing wrong. It's driving rail staff away so you will end up with a forum made up purely of industry outsiders.

    It's fine to ask something like 'is it dangerous for a driver to drive with a foot on the desk?' As those in the know can answer for you but to come on here stating it as being dangerous and wrong when you don't actually know is very wrong.

    As for the you tube video, the staff clearly arrived as fast as possible from other areas of the station. Had there been an actual fire the CCTV would pick up on it and staff would be there sooner. There was not even any smoke in the video on you tube. This was a dragging brake, not a fire. Yes it caused panic and I understand that but had it been a real fire then the driver would have been alerted to it and acted differently.
     
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