Incident at Talerddig, Wales - 21/10/2024

[12LDA28C]

Note the word "should" in my post.

‘Should’ is clearly meaningless in a situation like this. Many signals have trap/catch points beyond them to provide additional protection in case of SPaD, regardless of the installation of TPWS.

 

[Harpo]

The railway industry will be keen to understand how a collision has occurred on an ETCS railway and how/if the system moved through its supervise/warn/intervene states.

It will also be interesting to see if ETCS mitigated the outcome by cancelling one train’s movement authority.

 

[bramling]

The railway industry will be keen to understand how a collision has occurred on an ETCS railway and how/if the system moved through its supervise/warn/intervene states.

It will also be interesting to see if ETCS mitigated the outcome by cancelling one train’s movement authority.

I was going to ask this question, presumably a continuous ATP system should have the capability to identify if a train is exceeding its braking curve / limit of movement, and potentially EB any other trains in the area? Certainly some of the LU systems will do exactly that.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Every safety system has its limitations. ATP/TPWS/ETCS can't stop a train in an all-wheel slide.

 

[43066]

What an awful tragedy. A fatality at such low speed as well (comparatively) - very unusual. The RAIB report will be interesting I'm sure. If low adhesion is found to be the cause it will hopefully lead to improved vegetation management. Notice I say hopefully!

Absolutely. They *really* do need to get on top of this, especially after the enormous foliage growth this year. Likely to become more of an issue as the climate gets warmer and wetter.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Absolutely. They *really* do need to get on top of this, especially after the enormous foliage growth this year. Likely to become more of an issue as the climate gets warmer and wetter.

Interestingly there has been significant foliage cutback where I drive.

 

[Brush 4]

The reports say Llanbrynmair, not Talerddig. Is there a loop at Llanbrynmair or did it slide down all the way from Talerddig?

 

[krus_aragon]

The reports say Llanbrynmair, not Talerddig. Is there a loop at Llanbrynmair or did it slide down all the way from Talerddig?

I'd guess the coverage is referring to Llanbrynmair as the more significant settlement in the area. though the actual loop is at Talerddig.

Welsh-language radio this morning is describing the incident as being "near Llanbrynmair" or "between Talerddig and Llanbrynmair".

 

[357]

‘Should’ is clearly meaningless in a situation like this. Many signals have trap/catch points beyond them to provide additional protection in case of SPaD, regardless of the installation of TPWS.

Thanks for the observation, I think that's rather obvious in this situation.

However the point still stands that many locations don't have catch points as TPWS or equivalent is seen as adequate to stop a train before the point of conflict according to the standards at the time of installation.

 

[westcoaster]

Waking up to the news , my thoughts with everyone involved.

So sad to see someone passed away

 

[devon_belle]

Tragic that someone has died. I wish the others a speedy recovery.

I hope that the investigation and subsequent action taken will reduce the likelihood of incidents like these in the future.

 

[800001]

What an awful tragedy. A fatality at such low speed as well (comparatively) - very unusual. The RAIB report will be interesting I'm sure. If low adhesion is found to be the cause it will hopefully lead to improved vegetation management. Notice I say hopefully!

From twitter observations, and also some pictures of TOC route messages last night, there was a heart attack sadly suffered by a passenger last night, possible that maybe was sadly the fatality.

With regard to ongoing stock shortages, is there anything about the ETCS implementation on the class 158 that would hinder reforming the undamaged carriages into a temporary unit?

I can imagine both units will be impounded by the Rail Accident Investigation team while they carry out there work.

BBC news also reporting a local person saying where the incident took place was a hilly area.

 

[zwk500]

The railway industry will be keen to understand how a collision has occurred on an ETCS railway and how/if the system moved through its supervise/warn/intervene states.

It will also be interesting to see if ETCS mitigated the outcome by cancelling one train’s movement authority.

this will be interesting to see the outcome of. And also whether ETCS was taking any measures for low adhesion (I don't know enough about how the system works in practice to know what it should have been doing on it's own or with signaller input for low adhesion).

 

[Purple Train]

What totally heartbreaking news. My thoughts and prayers are with those involved, the emergency services dealing with it, and the friends and family of the man who has died.

 

[Caaardiff]

From twitter observations, and also some pictures of TOC route messages last night, there was a heart attack sadly suffered by a passenger last night, possible that maybe was sadly the fatality.

That is correct.

From what I've been told the collision was due to slippery rails on the bank. Nothing to do with signalling. Although it does seem both units ended on the single line so not sure how one can exit the loop slipping while the other is approaching, and you'd think the points would be set and would cause the slipping train to derail. Unless it happened right on the points

 

[Anonymous10]

Very sad news to wake up to, thought i was seeing things as was the first thing I saw. Hopefully everyone is now on the road to recovery and condolences to those affected.

On a different note hopefully this doesn't cause too bad a stock shortage for TFW

 

[pompeyfan]

It will be interesting to see the official report.

The Salisbury incident led SWR to modify the sanding system on their 158s/159s. Perhaps this mod will now go nationwide?

One thing that does spring to mind is that with the Salisbury incident a GSMR REC (Railway Emergency call) would potentially have made the incident worse, however in this case it would appear sensible at the point of SPAD. I don’t know whether one was made though, I’m sure it’ll come out eventually.

My thoughts go to the friends and family of the person that has sadly passed.

 

[Parallel]

Very sad incident. Hopefully those in hospital make a speedy recovery. Poor adhesion looks to be a particularly bad issue this autumn.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is exclusively to discuss last night's incident (in a non-speculative way).

For any discussion relating to possible changes to lineside vegetation controls, please use the following thread:

Surely there now needs to be a serious discussion on lineside vegetation control?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/incident-at-talerddig-wales-21-10-2024.275845/ Absolutely awful news that somebody has succumbed to their injuries. If, as is looking likely, this incident was caused by poor adhesion, surely there now needs to be a serious...

www.railforums.co.uk

Discussion regarding potential reforming of 158s to go here please:

class 158 to be reformed from the two sets damaged on 21/10/24?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/incident-at-talerddig-wales-21-10-2024.275845/ I suppose it would be feasible to create one unit from the two undamaged cars and wait for the two damaged ones to be repaired.

www.railforums.co.uk

For anything else of a speculative nature, please create a new thread.

If you see anything that causes concern, or is off topic in nature, please do not reply to it or refer to it in any way; instead please use the report button. Also any references to moderation matters must be communicated through the report system, not by posting anywhere else, please.

Thanks.

 

[YorkRailFan]

RAIB inspectors remain on site today:

RAIB deployed a team last night to the site of the collision between two passenger trains at Tallerddig #Powys Our inspectors remain on site today and are working to gather evidence.

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TFW and Network Rail have published a joint statement:

"Emergency services are responding to an incident near Llanbrynmair in Powys, Mid Wales, involving two trains - the 18:31 TFW service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and the 19:09 TFW service from Machynlleth to Shrewsbury."

"The line is closed as they carry out their work. Our main priority is the safety of our passengers and colleagues, and we are doing all we can to support the emergency services as they respond to the incident.

"We would encourage passengers to plan ahead and check journeys before traveling via National Rail Enquiries."

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My thoughts are with all onboard the two trains, and with the family of the deceased.

 

[Proposedlines]

Very very sad news
Thoughts are with families

 

[Signal Head]

That is correct.

From what I've been told the collision was due to slippery rails on the bank. Nothing to do with signalling. Although it does seem both units ended on the single line so not sure how one can exit the loop slipping while the other is approaching, and you'd think the points would be set and would cause the slipping train to derail. Unless it happened right on the points

Trains generally aren't derailed by trailing points being set the wrong way - the points are just forced to some extent and the wheels pass through. It may not even make enough of of an impact to alert the driver.

I've been present at the aftermath of a SPAD resulting in a 'run through', where the driver was convinced they'd had a proceed aspect and had no idea anything was wrong.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I've been present at the aftermath of a SPAD resulting in a 'run through', where the driver was convinced they'd had a proceed aspect and had no idea anything was wrong.

As is being discussed on the Cowden thread. Although the cause here was, it seems, very different.

 

[Lurcheroo]

What an awful tragedy. A fatality at such low speed as well (comparatively) - very unusual. The RAIB report will be interesting I'm sure. If low adhesion is found to be the cause it will hopefully lead to improved vegetation management. Notice I say hopefully!

It was a heart attack I believe.

 

[DanNCL]

I have no doubt that the RAIB and other parties will investigate this thoroughly and properly. Will be especially interesting to see what if any difference ETCS made to the outcome of this. It’ll also be interesting to see what similarities this had to Salisbury, considering at first impression this appears to be a repeat of a 158 not managing to stop before a collision in poor railhead conditions.
Also with the replacement of the 158s on the Cambrian already planned, I wonder if it’ll be suggested in the report how different (if at all) it would have been had it been a pair of 197s instead.

But regardless of any of that, something has very clearly gone tragically wrong. It’s very sad that someone has died, but also a relief that there weren’t more deaths.

I do think this needs to be a wake up call for the railway. Granted it’s still much safer than the roads but there’s now been two fatal accidents in little over 4 years. Considering there weren’t any for 13 years after Grayrigg, it’s a step backwards for the railway and lessons, whatever they may be, need to be learned from this.

I’ve started a thread in speculative discussion about the possibility of this accident leading to the expedited replacement of the Sprinters. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/sprinters-need-to-replace-on-safety-grounds.275875/

 

[InkyScrolls]

It was a heart attack I believe.

Thank you - so it would seem. No less a tragedy to the family of course.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The railway industry will be keen to understand how a collision has occurred on an ETCS railway and how/if the system moved through its supervise/warn/intervene states.

It will also be interesting to see if ETCS mitigated the outcome by cancelling one train’s movement authority.

The system will very likely have done its thing but the driver was likely in emergency and deployed the emergency one shot sander before ERTMS tried to intervene.

The other train was climbing a steep bank, whilst the other one would have increased its speed the further down the bank it got, so the further up the bank the non-sliding train got, the less the impact would have been.

this will be interesting to see the outcome of. And also whether ETCS was taking any measures for low adhesion (I don't know enough about how the system works in practice to know what it should have been doing on it's own or with signaller input for low adhesion).

It makes no adjustment for it, that is all on the driver.

 

[Doubleyellow]

ETCS can only advise the driver when to brake, or choose when to demand a brake itself, based on the brake rate its told that it can expect from teh train (i.e. based on its configured data). Driving slower for low adhesion doesn't necessarily "help" with ETCS protection (if you haven't told the ETCS there is low adhesion) as the ETCS will believe it can wait until later to "demand a brake" ("believing" as it does its assumed brake rate plus corrections). Even when we have an ETCS with an option to configure low adhesion settings there can always be a case where the "real adhesion" is worse than the "configured adhesion".

 

[zwk500]

It makes no adjustment for it, that is all on the driver.

ETCS can only advise the driver when to brake, or choose when to demand a brake itself, based on the brake rate its told that it can expect from teh train (i.e. based on its configured data). Driving slower for low adhesion doesn't necessarily "help" with ETCS protection (if you haven't told the ETCS there is low adhesion) as the ETCS will believe it can wait until later to "demand a brake" ("believing" as it does its assumed brake rate plus corrections). Even when we have an ETCS with an option to configure low adhesion settings there can always be a case where the "real adhesion" is worse than the "configured adhesion".

Thanks both

 

[RPI]

Trains generally aren't derailed by trailing points being set the wrong way - the points are just forced to some extent and the wheels pass through. It may not even make enough of of an impact to alert the driver.

I've been present at the aftermath of a SPAD resulting in a 'run through', where the driver was convinced they'd had a proceed aspect and had no idea anything was wrong.

Are they also not spring loaded/hydraulic points at Talerdig? Admittedly, I haven't been on the line since RETB was phased out, at that time there were quite a few of those type of points on the Cambrian