Insurance and selling a car

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Yew

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Hey all, im looking for soem advice on my Old car, a Ford Ka. I have recently bought a new car, and moved my insurance policy to cover the new vehicle, as such there is currently no Insurance policy covering the Ka. Now to me that seems to be no problem, however reading up on it it seems that the government have decided to make owning a taxed car without insurance illegal. Now obviously in my situation this is a bit of a pain.

Now there are a few options I have, im wondering if someone with experience in this field would say which could be the best (and the exact wording of the law, not the simplified info on directGov's website)

1) SORN the car, and sell it untaxed
2) Get some temporary insurance to keep the DVLA away
3) as the car will be sold soon (and run out of tax on the 30th of this month) leave it as is, and if its gone then its gone, if I still have it when the tax runs out then SORN it.

Thanks for your advice. I have done a little reaearch on car forums, but it seems that the reliability is dubious.

Yew
 
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richw

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It is an offence to display a road tax disc on a vehicle that has either no insurance or no MOT. Displaying a tax disc is to display you have MOT and Insurance. It is fraudulent misuse to display a disc that has either no insurance or no mot or neither.
 

Royston Vasey

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Surrender the tax disc and SORN it, you won't get a discount on the tax but it does mean you can keep it OFF PUBLIC ROAD without penalty. When you sell it make sure the buyer is aware, and they can buy tax and insure the car in advance of picking it up. Or just sell it to a motor trader and let them deal with it.
 

Yew

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Or just sell it to a motor trader and let them deal with it.
I'm starting to warm to that idea.

And I have got to say, this law is one that hasnt been thought through at all, making it hard for people to sell cars with innocent intent, yet not really stopping the real criminals :/
 

GB

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Depending where you live you might get away with option 3. Technically illegal and will land you in bother if caught but the chances of actually being caught will be slim....even more so if you have a two car length driveway to keep it on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Displaying a tax disc is to display you have MOT and Insurance. It is fraudulent misuse to display a disc that has either no insurance or no mot or neither.
Displaying a tax disc does not prove you have insurance or an MOT. It only proves you had them at the time of tax licensing.

The tax disc (as far as I am aware) is only to show you have tax, nothing to do with proving you have an MOT or insurance (thats what the MIB and MOT data bases are for)....at least I haven't seen anywhere to suggest otherwise.
 
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Royston Vasey

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I'm starting to warm to that idea.

And I have got to say, this law is one that hasnt been thought through at all, making it hard for people to sell cars with innocent intent, yet not really stopping the real criminals :/
Its tough selling a car like yours to a private buyer for very much money, particularly if not taxed, I know because I sold an old Ka last year. Auto Trader is just a pain in the ass. On paper you can get a better price but I find you get little but scam emails rather than genuine interest, and end up relisting, at £60 or so a time. Before you know it, you've spent the difference between a private and dealer sale already, had a load of hassle, and maybe not even sold the car!
 

richw

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Displaying a tax disc does not prove you have insurance or an MOT. It only proves you had them at the time of tax licensing.

The tax disc (as far as I am aware) is only to show you have tax, nothing to do with proving you have an MOT or insurance (thats what the MIB and MOT data bases are for)....at least I haven't seen anywhere to suggest otherwise.
A tax disc is as well as paying your tax, meant to be evidence of insurance and mot, hence why it is an offence to display if you dont have one or both of these.
 

Yew

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Thanks for the advice guys, I've talked to my dad and He is going to ask a friend who runs a garage what he thinks of the situation, as He has practical experience of these laws. He might even want to buy the car :)
 

DaveNewcastle

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It is an offence to display a road tax disc on a vehicle that has either no insurance or no MOT.
Are you sure?
The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act (1994) requires that a vehicle which is used on the public roads must be displaying a valid 'tax disc' and it is a requirement when obtaining a 'tax disc' that the applicant can produce evidence of Insurance and (where appropriate) an MOT certificate.
But I am not aware of legislation which creates an Offence attached to the display of a tax disc' in the terms you have given.
 

richw

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Are you sure?
The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act (1994) requires that a vehicle which is used on the public roads must be displaying a valid 'tax disc' and it is a requirement when obtaining a 'tax disc' that the applicant can produce evidence of Insurance and (where appropriate) an MOT certificate.
But I am not aware of legislation which creates an Offence attached to the display of a tax disc' in the terms you have given.
It's a relatively new thing i think when DVla send out the tax renewal forms it now states on the renewal form it's an offence to display a disc If the insurance or mot are not valid. I'd never seen it before my recent tax renewal form.
 

rail-britain

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It's a relatively new thing i think when DVla send out the tax renewal forms it now states on the renewal form it's an offence to display a disc If the insurance or mot are not valid. I'd never seen it before my recent tax renewal form.
I've never heard of this, and all three are still separate processes

I know there was a change where it is now a requirement to have :
Validated vehicle status and insurance
or
SORN with no insurance
This uses the Tax Disc database, but is not related to Tax Disc

It is quite legal to have a vehicle on the public highway with just a Tax Disc
It becomes an offence as soon as that vehicle is driven, if it does not have insurance and/or MoT
 

snail

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http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/motoring/owningavehicle/untaxedvehicle/dg_069727
direct.gov said:
You must declare SORN if your vehicle is:
* not taxed and off the road
* not insured and off the road
* taxed and uninsured - you must insure your vehicle or make a refund application with a SORN declaration to DVLA
If you're not insured and haven't made a SORN, you could face a penalty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13836625 sums it up well.

The offence is "being the registered keeper of a vehicle which does not have insurance cover" under The Motor Vehicles (Insurance Requirements) Regulations 2011.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/20/made
 

DaveNewcastle

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Thank you for the reference.
Its not exactly the same as creating an Offence by "dispaying a disc If the insurance or MOT are not valid" but I agree that in many circumstances it could amount to the same thing. And that in the majority of circumstances, a lack of insurance is capable of triggerring a Penalty.

There are, circumstances where a vehicle may not be required to be the subject of an MOT test or, exceptionally, where a driver may not be required to have Insurance cover, but in both instances, a 'tax disc' could validly be displayed.
 

DaveNewcastle

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It's a relatively new thing i think when DVla send out the tax renewal forms it now states on the renewal form it's an offence to display a disc If the insurance or mot are not valid.
I've now had an opportunity to study a "Renewal Reminder to get a tax disc or make a Statutory Off Road Notification" (Form V11)
From early 2011 a new law gives us and the Motor Insurer's Bureau (MIB) more power to deal with keepers of vehicles that are not insured. We will compare our records with those held on the Motor Insurance Database (MID) to identify keepers of vehicles without insurance.
if your vehicle is not insured and you have not made a SORN, you may be fined, or your vehicle may be clamped, seized and may be disposed of. You could also be prosecuted. To check your vehicle is recorded as 'insured' on the MID, visit the free service at www.askMID.com
It's interesting that the reference to prosecution does not specify the Act, and specifically does not explicitly state that whatever Offence may be prosecuted follows from the previous sentence : "if your vehicle is not insured".

I'm also informed that there can be delays in new insurance policies being available for confirmation on that database.

But to be quite clear, I still cannot find any support for the specific statement "It is an offence to display a road tax disc on a vehicle that has either no insurance or no MOT. Displaying a tax disc is to display you have MOT and Insurance.".

Section 143 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 States
143. Users of motor vehicles to be insured or secured against third-party risks.
(1)Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act— .
(a)a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and .
(b)a person must not cause or permit any other person to use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that other person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act.​
(2)If a person acts in contravention of subsection (1) above he is guilty of an offence.

(3)A person charged with using a motor vehicle in contravention of this section shall not be convicted if he proves— .
(a)that the vehicle did not belong to him and was not in his possession under a contract of hiring or of loan, .
(b)that he was using the vehicle in the course of his employment, and .
(c)that he neither knew nor had reason to believe that there was not in force in relation to the vehicle such a policy of insurance or security as is mentioned in subsection (1) above.​
(4)This Part of this Act does not apply to invalid carriages.
(my bold)
and S.144 provides the exceptions and is amended as snail notified above.
 
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A vehicle must have a valid Road Fund Licence disc displayed and also be insured. If the vehicle is to be kept off the road it must still be insured unless it has been declared as SORN. If it has been declared SORN it must be kept off the public highway and Road Fund Licence need not be paid nor does the vehicle have to be insured.
If you ignore this you will be liable to prosecution.

It is not possible to obtain a Road Fund Licence without production of current insurance papers and - where applicable - a valid MOT certificate.

Displaying a valid Road Fund Licence without the vehicle having insurance and/or a valid MOT certificate is not in itself an offence, the offence is not having the certificate(s) for the vehicle concerned.

The only permitted occasion that a vehicle is allowed to be driven without a current Road Fund Licence is by a person engaged in the motor trade using trade plates for motor trade purposes.
The only permitted occasion that a vehicle may be driven without a current MOT certificate is if the vehicle is being driven to a pre-booked test appointment.

Source: P.C. Barlow Boy junior, Metropolitan police, traffic division.
 

beermaddavep

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As well as driving to Mot testing stations, it used to be the case that a vehicle could also be driven to and from a pre arranged place of repair without an Mot- has this now changed?
 

swj99

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As well as driving to Mot testing stations, it used to be the case that a vehicle could also be driven to and from a pre arranged place of repair without an Mot- has this now changed?
As long as it's going to somewhere that's going to fix the defects it failed on, yes, you're allowed to drive it there. The wording says something like,
driven to a place where by prior arrangement, repairs for which it has failed the MOT are to be carried out,
It is legal to drive it there with no MOT and no tax. Obviously the car still needs to be insured, and if the car has defects which render it unroadworthy, or if it's dangerous to drive, then the driver could be prosecuted under the construction and use regulations. If it had just failed on a side light bulb and one of the rear seatbelt clips you'd be alright. If it had big holes in the floor and half the exhaust was missing, it would need to go there on a trailer (or straight to the scrap yard).

When my late father last changed his car, he rang his insurer to tell them the details of the new car (literally a newer model of the same car). At the time, he still had the old car. Without even having to be asked, the insurance company offered to leave the old car on cover, for free, for a whole month so we could advertise and sell it. What nice people ! **

** That is probably the only compliment I'm likely to ever pay to an insurance company, so make the most of it.
 

michael769

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That is no longer true, as of 2011. If its on a public highway it needs to be insured as well.
That was always the case. Sect 143 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to use a motor vehicle on any road to which the public have access. Under case law the term use includes parking or storing on a public road and thus a vehicle left on a public road has to be insured. What has changed is the way that this is enforced - of which Barlow Boys post is an accurate summary

For the OP: Many insurers will extend their policy to give temporary cover for a vehicle that is begin sold at relatively low cost - if your does not a decent broker will be able to arrange a short term policy!

You may also wish to bear in mind that Sect143 of the RTRA makes it an offence to permit a motor vehicle to be driven without insurance - as seller the onus is on you to check that anyone you allow to test drive is covered.

swj99 said:
As long as it's going to somewhere that's going to fix the defects it failed on, yes, you're allowed to drive it there.
Note that this in practice means you can only drive it directly from the MOT station to the repair shop and back (case law again!), not take it home for a bit in between!
 
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Zoe

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Note that this in practice means you can only drive it directly from the MOT station to the repair shop and back (case law again!), not take it home for a bit in between!
What if you were going to do the repairs yourself?
 

michael769

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What if you were going to do the repairs yourself?
The law only requires that the appointment is with a "place of repair", case law holds that this can be your own premises if you intend to do it yourself. But if you have an appointment with a garage for the next day you cannot take it home overnight (unless you were planning to do part of the repairs yourself, of course).

Of course in practice Police Constables exercise some discretion when it comes to MOT failures - assuming the vehicle is not a death trap that is!
 
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