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Egg Centric

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It's worth remembering that I'm sure that there are many people using TrainSplit who don't want to pay it, but do because they can't be bothered. By making it a chose the share thing it becomes effectively a donation, and it isn't feasible for a company to survive on only that. It's really sad that so many people are effectively using a service from a company and then refusing to actually pay for it. It's sad that the solution so many choose when they don't like the share of the saving fee is to take the service anyways and effectively exploit it, then take their business and the data they obtained to a competitor, rather than accepting they don't like the fee and trying to find a better deal offered by competitor.

At the end of the day if too many people do it the service becomes unsustainable, and the fees have to be raised for everyone else, or the whole thing is unsustainable and we all lose it.

Yah that's why I was thinking it couldn't be too easy (perhaps have a text box where the user has to give a minimum 30 word explanation of why they don't want to pay the full share of savings, to make them feel guilty and think about their actions). I guess you need to balance the extra amount who would do this (let's say it went down to a minimum 5% share of savings, not have 0% selectable) versus the amount no longer manually adding everything to basket.

There is an irony that the more that is saved the bigger (in absolute terms) the share of savings becomes so better service "looks" more expensive.
 
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yorkie

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There is an irony that the more that is saved the bigger (in absolute terms) the share of savings becomes so better service "looks" more expensive.
Do you have a particular example of that?

Also if it looks expensive with a big saving, then by extension, the fare the TOCs would be charging would have to be mega-expensive!
 

yorkie

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It's just basic maths, maybe I wasn't clear. If you save someone £20 then share of saving will be £2. If you save someone £40 then share of saving will be £4.

So psychologically it looks like a higher fee the better you do!
True, but that would mean the overall price will be £36 lower than what TOCs are charging, so a £36 lower fare looks expensive, that would make the TOC price, at £36 higher, look much more so!
 

Benjwri

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Do you have a particular example of that?
I think that they mean it will look more expensive looking at the split of share fee. I don't think it's mathmatically possible for a split to cost less but end up costing more, with the share of the saving fee, than a more expensive split, with the fee, unless the TOC is also charging more for that train.

I could see it would be possible if lets say on a journey A-B-C-D, where on train 1 tickets reached the top quota between B-C, but had the low quota on the other two legs, while train 2 had the medium quota fulfilled on two legs and the low on another. I can see that if the priced were right for the specific situation, although the Low-High-Low split could be identified, and chaper than Medium-Medium-Low, a share of savings fee could make train 1 more expensive.

Very theoretical though, I've never seen it happen, and I don't think its a huge issue, as train one was more expensive by the TOC anyways.
 

yorkie

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I think that they mean it will look more expensive looking at the split of share fee. I don't think it's mathmatically possible for a split to cost less but end up costing more, with the share of the saving fee, than a more expensive split, with the fee, unless the TOC is also charging more for that train.

I could see it would be possible if lets say on a journey A-B-C-D, where on train 1 tickets reached the top quota between B-C, but had the low quota on the other two legs, while train 2 had the medium quota fulfilled on two legs and the low on another. I can see that if the priced were right for the specific situation, although the Low-High-Low split could be identified, and chaper than Medium-Medium-Low, a share of savings fee could make train 1 more expensive.

Very theoretical though, I've never seen it happen, and I don't think its a huge issue, as train one was more expensive by the TOC anyways.
I'm not quite sure what this means (I boycott algebra these days; I didn't enjoy it at school;)) but if you ever find a real example, with actual place names and prices, please do let us know, and provide screenshots if possible.
 

OLJR

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Just a question and not a criticism. I can book tickets on the LNER and Grand Central sites further ahead than here on the forum. Is it possible for our booking engine to match these others in terms of booking window?

Jun to Sep Advances are likely to be released soon and I will have a dozen or so of these to book. I would like to support the forum, but if I wait until we catch up the juiciest deals have probably gone.
 

yorkie

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Just a question and not a criticism. I can book tickets on the LNER and Grand Central sites further ahead than here on the forum. Is it possible for our booking engine to match these others in terms of booking window?
It cropped up a few days ago (either this thread or another); I am unsure about GC, but LNER do not permit this.

However whether or not LNER are allowed to do so legally, is perhaps questionable.

Jun to Sep Advances are likely to be released soon and I will have a dozen or so of these to book. I would like to support the forum, but if I wait until we catch up the juiciest deals have probably gone.
In my experience they are no cheaper if you wait a bit; I've even seen the price go down! However if a sporting event or similar gets announced for an affected date, then of course you'd be losing out then. It's a tricky one. If you can say the days/times and the prices you are currently seeing, someone may have an idea and be able to advise accordingly. You could also do a comparison search for a few weeks prior (with the caveat that demand can vary by aspects such as school holidays, bank holidays, sporting events etc, so a direct comparison may not be fair)
 

OLJR

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In my experience they are no cheaper if you wait a bit; I've even seen the price go down! However if a sporting event or similar gets announced for an affected date, then of course you'd be losing out then. It's a tricky one. If you can say the days/times and the prices you are currently seeing, someone may have an idea and be able to advise accordingly. You could also do a comparison search for a few weeks prior (with the caveat that demand can vary by aspects such as school holidays, bank holidays, sporting events etc, so a direct comparison may not be fair)
I have noticed that on my route - King's Cross <> Newcastle, up to last year the cheapest tickets were reliably released for both legs when bookings opened.

Every now and again, including at Christmas last year, LNER's inventory analyst would make a mistake and release the cheapest ticket on many trains for a few hours after the e-mail went out. My Christmas 1ST Advance with a railcard was £48.30 last year and was £100-odd within hours, and the same train was £88.60 in 2022.

At the moment LNER's pricing strategy seems to be as follows:

Newcastle -> King's Cross = mega expensive at the time of release, reduced at about 12 weeks ahead, except on the 0930 departure which is always cheap for some reason
King's Cross -> Newcastle = normal price

Let's see what happens when the summer advances are released!

Over here in aviation, Ryanair have long been making a fuss about travel agents screen scraping their fares and selling their flights at a markup. I think that the rail case here is different though because we are looking at split ticketing to help consumers, not screen scraping to rip them off.
 

Mojo

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lt’s also worth considering that there are many occasions where the split ticketing engine will be able to produce cheaper tickets that are either not available on Toc websites, or require additional ‘advanced’ options. ln these cases, despite saving you money you won’t have to pay any additional fees because they aren’t split tickets.
 

yorkie

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Over here in aviation, Ryanair have long been making a fuss about travel agents screen scraping their fares and selling their flights at a markup. I think that the rail case here is different though because we are looking at split ticketing to help consumers, not screen scraping to rip them off.
Indeed; we certainly don't do any scraping. Indeed others try to scrape from us.

Also no markup from us; it's either the same price from us, or it can be a bit cheaper (where we find splits)
lt’s also worth considering that there are many occasions where the split ticketing engine will be able to produce cheaper tickets that are either not available on Toc websites, or require additional ‘advanced’ options. ln these cases, despite saving you money you won’t have to pay any additional fees because they aren’t split tickets.
Very true.
 

BRX

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Do you have a particular example of that?

Also if it looks expensive with a big saving, then by extension, the fare the TOCs would be charging would have to be mega-expensive!

This might not be quite the scenario envisaged - but could be an example of the "share of savings" feel appearing expensive.

A journey I do quite a bit is London-Inverness. Aside from the sleeper there's one train a day that goes right through - an LNER one and that's the only route that a conventional search will give you an advance fare for. Otherwise you're basically looking at on off-peak. There's no "LNER + connections" type fare for this route, for example.

Anyone who does this semi-regularly is quite likely to understand there's a very obvious split - London to Edinburgh with LNER and then Edinburgh to Inverness with Scotrail. And often you'll find that this will beat the walk-up fare by quite a bit.

So ... if I ask trainsplit to look for tickets, it will quite likely find the split that I already know about, and it might "save" me £50 and charge £5+ for doing that work. But to me, that feels like I'm paying for something I can easily find myself. On the other hand... it might (and sometimes does) find me a more complex split, perhaps a string of different tickets for the LNER leg and/or the scotrail leg. In that case it's a bit different because it's very unlikely I would have found that myself. However... the additional savings in the fare are quite marginal - maybe it beats the "obvious" split by £1.50 (in terms of the raw fares, before adding the fee). But once it adds £5+ back on top of that, it's asking me to pay more than I'd have to pay if I'd just looked up the obvious split options myself.

Another scenario on the same route (I'm just using it as an example because it's one I'm familiar with):

Take the 14th of March - if I look on LNER it'll offer me £79 on the 1200 direct train. For the 1300 train, it'll tell me it's £106.60. Screenshot showing this:

Screenshot 2024-02-21 at 14.45.21.jpg

If I ask trainsplit about the same day, it'll offer me as per this screenshot:

Screenshot 2024-02-21 at 14.51.16.jpg


£73.42 for the 1200. Well done to trainsplit - they beat LNER. And many people will be quite happy to accept this lower price. Even if they see that £1.19 is taken as a fee - that's not much. I'd pay that rather than faffing about doing it manually.

What if I'd kind of prefer to travel at 1300 though? Trainsplit offers me £81.80, which is more than the straight-up LNER advance on the 1200 service. That's only because of the "share of saving" fee though, which is £4.50, as seen in this screenshot:

Screenshot 2024-02-21 at 14.56.44.jpg

If that fee were instead £2, then it would still beat the LNER price.

This is a rather marginal difference perhaps, and you might say a contrived example. But perhaps I could find another day where trainsplit can't beat LNER on the 1200 train price, and then a customer might look at their options and go for the LNER one when trainsplit might have got their custom had the fee been a little lower.

lt’s also worth considering that there are many occasions where the split ticketing engine will be able to produce cheaper tickets that are either not available on Toc websites, or require additional ‘advanced’ options. ln these cases, despite saving you money you won’t have to pay any additional fees because they aren’t split tickets.
In my Inverness example, this sometimes happens when you're offered a routing via the WCML ... a series of advances without any additional fee. I guess because that routing isn't covered by the "any permitted" off-peak?
 

sheff1

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Yes there is still commission even if there is no splitting involved; the commission is reduced for TOD bookings, though, so e-tickets are preferable. But we don't charge TOD fees either, unlike TOCs such as XC; the retailer (Raileasy/Trainsplit) absorbs that cost, in some cases making a loss to do so.
I have seen it stated before that selecting TOD causes a loss to be made. As I prefer TOD for the vast majority of my tickets I have refrained from booking said tickets on your site. Are you saying that a loss is not always a given - in which case is there anyway of knowing this before choosing from where I purchase specific tickets ?
 

MrJeeves

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What if I'd kind of prefer to travel at 1300 though? Trainsplit offers me £81.80, which is more than the straight-up LNER advance on the 1200 service. That's only because of the "share of saving" fee though, which is £4.50, as seen in this screenshot:
This is probably because LNER do their own "splits" (""smart save"") behind the scenes.


They will offer the price of a split ticket for a journey wholly on LNER, but issue it as a single through ticket with a custom discount set, which they can do for advances as all the money goes straight to them anyway.

Edit: oh, I thought you had said our price was more than LNER's equivalent because I misread the 1200 as 1300... Point still stands in some circumstances, though!
 

yorkie

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I have seen it stated before that selecting TOD causes a loss to be made. As I prefer TOD for the vast majority of my tickets I have refrained from booking said tickets on your site. Are you saying that a loss is not always a given - in which case is there anyway of knowing this before choosing from where I purchase specific tickets ?
It's only loss-making on low value tickets; the actual value may depend on the type of credit/debit card you use. Basically, the retailer incurs various fees, which can exceed their commission.
 

andythebrave

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I booked my wife a return from Flitwick to Wimbledon today and, as usual, specified 'go via', and 'change at' London Blackfriars.
Until today there has never been any issue with this; Anytime day return Flitwick to Luton Airport Parkway, Anytime day return Luton Airport Parkway and Anytime day return Elephant & Castle to Wimbledon with one change at Blackfriars.
Today, however, the splits were fine but the itinerary said change at St Pancras outbound and at City Thameslink inbound as if the engine had ignored the 'change at' instruction and treated it as a 'via' request only.
It wasn't a problem for us as it is clear that one can change anywhere between St Pancras and Blackfriars and achieve the same result but if this behaviour translated to, say, 'change at York' resulting in a change at Northallerton it may be an issue for some.
 

yorkie

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I booked my wife a return from Flitwick to Wimbledon today and, as usual, specified 'go via', and 'change at' London Blackfriars.
Until today there has never been any issue with this; Anytime day return Flitwick to Luton Airport Parkway, Anytime day return Luton Airport Parkway and Anytime day return Elephant & Castle to Wimbledon with one change at Blackfriars.
Today, however, the splits were fine but the itinerary said change at St Pancras outbound and at City Thameslink inbound as if the engine had ignored the 'change at' instruction and treated it as a 'via' request only.
It wasn't a problem for us as it is clear that one can change anywhere between St Pancras and Blackfriars and achieve the same result but if this behaviour translated to, say, 'change at York' resulting in a change at Northallerton it may be an issue for some.
Can you confirm the exact itineraries please?
 

andythebrave

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Sorry, I can sort of reproduce it for today, Flitwick 0813 City Thameslink 0911/0919 Wimbledon 0954 and Wimbledon 1507 City Thameslink 1541/1544 Flitwick 1640.

1 adult with Disabled Railcard, flexible tickets only, change at Blackfriars specified in more options.
 

Haywain

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Sorry, I can sort of reproduce it for today, Flitwick 0813 City Thameslink 0911/0919 Wimbledon 0954 and Wimbledon 1507 City Thameslink 1541/1544 Flitwick 1640.

1 adult with Disabled Railcard, flexible tickets only, change at Blackfriars specified in more options.
In situations like this specifying an amount of time (3 minutes?) at Backfriars should make that the change point.
 

Adam Williams

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In theory it should use "Change at" with 0 extra mins by default, if you select "Change at". I suspect this might be broken. Out of interest, does it work on the Beta TrainSplit site?

@Haywain's workaround is a good suggestion, and what I'd recommend for now.
 

Haywain

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In theory it should use "Change at" with 0 extra mins by default, if you select "Change at". I suspect this might be broken.
I've found in the past that it can be a bit flaky like this when both trains have more than one common stopping point.
 

BRX

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As a regular user of that Thameslink route, I've always wondered what logic journey planners use to decide where I should change, between Blackfriars & St Pancras.
 

Fermiboson

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How intensively does the journey planner search for splits outside of the permitted route between two destinations? How does that affect commissions calculations?

For example, Sheffield - Birmingham has the permitted route of BY so is not valid via Nottingham. If I go on the site right now and search for Sheffield - Birmingham single for flexible fares at some date (say, 14th of March) on the cheapest setting, with advanced routes turned on, the cheapest fares are:

35.18 if I use the default settings, for Sheffield > Willingdon > B'ham Stations
1708702461222.png
31.70 if I force via Nottingham, for the exact same tickets
1708702368595.png
The difference is, of course, the commission from the first one being a split ticket saving along a valid route. It does seem somewhat weird that the engine will offer two different prices for the exact same ticket, though, just because I used different settings to search for them.

There have also been situations where I am able to find advances via Nottingham whose ticket sales prices are actually cheaper than those via Derby; I can't seem to reproduce them here currently, possibly a fluke or maybe only happens on certain days. But the question does remain: when there are cheaper options that involve a split ticket going outside of the original permitted route, is that taken into account?
 

Mojo

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As a regular user of that Thameslink route, I've always wondered what logic journey planners use to decide where I should change, between Blackfriars & St Pancras.
lt has been explained in the past by @Paul Kelly that there is an RDG Code Of Practice for journey planners which sets interchange priority for various stations. This was the quoted rule in 2016 but l accept it may have changed subsequently, but it gives you the drift: "lnterchange preferences should conform with the rules notified by RSP. The preference rules take into account ease of access, security, quality of waiting facilities and provision of ancillary services such as catering facilities, availability of taxis for inter-station interchange etc."

lt could also be that what may be a valid connection at one station (TL <> TL connections at City Thameslink and Farringdon are 3 Min whereas at Blackfriars and St Pancras it is longer), this could lead to a situation where for a journey involving two stations north of St Pancras it would not be valid to change at St Pancras but would at Farringdon, even though you'd be passing St Pancras twice!

From a ticketing engine point of view, although probably not relevant in the case of a journey on TLRailUK, you also have to consider when changing that by interchanging at one station you may change the price of the ticket, because the quota may have run out on one train but not on the other. l posted a while ago about a journey from Plymouth to Manchester; one website was charging just £48.85 whereas another £92.05 despite identical arrival and departure times. There were no split tickets or special offers involved, in this instance one journey planner was suggesting changing at Newton Abbot whereas the more expensive one was changing at Birmingham New Street; the cheaper quota for the first train had obviously run out at some point between Newton Abbot and Birmingham meaning it was selling the ticket from a higher tier.
 

Paul Kelly

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How intensively does the journey planner search for splits outside of the permitted route between two destinations?
Permitted routes are totally irrelevant to how virtually all journey planners work; the fares and routeing validity are only calculated at a second stage. There will probably be some other explanation for what you've seen, maybe related to how much slower the journey is via Nottingham.
 

Willie Bee

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How soon do LNER tickets become available on the 'RailUK tickets' website compared to the LNER site ?

The reason I ask .. for early in June, my wife and I are travelling from Glasgow (GLQ) to Newcastle via Edinburgh. We would like an hour in between trains .. something I know is possible with the Forum's site but not (I think) if booking with LNER direct.

Last year, not wanting to lose out on a good deal I had no option but to use the LNER site, quite simply as the Forum's site didn't have the tickets available at the time.

With the current LNER ticket policy, speed of buying is even more important now
 

Adam Williams

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How soon do LNER tickets become available on the 'RailUK tickets' website compared to the LNER site ?

The reason I ask .. for early in June, my wife and I are travelling from Glasgow (GLQ) to Newcastle via Edinburgh. We would like an hour in between trains .. something I know is possible with the Forum's site but not (I think) if booking with LNER direct.

Last year, not wanting to lose out on a good deal I had no option but to use the LNER site, quite simply as the Forum's site didn't have the tickets available at the time.

With the current LNER ticket policy, speed of buying is even more important now
You'll need to ask LNER about this.

They've deliberately configured RARS to lie about availability on the further-out services, despite Raileasy fully supporting timetable change and cancellation notifications. The last I heard about this, there was an expectation that retailers who wanted to offer this would share customer details with LNER, which isn't going to happen.

LNER's website for a trip on 23/05/24

1708812655588.png

And when we ask the industry system about the very same ticket type, on the same service:

Screenshot from 2024-02-24 22-19-14.png

In theory it should use "Change at" with 0 extra mins by default, if you select "Change at". I suspect this might be broken
This turned out to be broken, a fix will go out next week.
 
Last edited:

mikeb42

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Apols if this is the wrong place to note this sort of thing; mods please feel free to delete if so.

Am I missing something or is the site not finding a cheaper and reasonably obvious split for the following journey:


Newport(Gwent) -> Wolverhampton, 6/3/24 cca 13:00. Site offers a 13:37->16:09 itinerary via Shrewsbury with 2x advances splitting at Abergavenny, which at the time of writing yields total ticket cost £7.20+£11.40=£18.60.

Manually moving to advances split at Cwmbran instead while keeping all other things equal gives £3.40+£11.40=£14.80 i.e. about a 20% further reduction.

On the basis of a quick explore this wasn't the only example of this pattern - i.e. better to split at Cwmbran than Abergavenny.
 

GusB

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I used the site to buy my tickets for this weekend's jaunt. There was, I think, one opportunity to split (at Aviemore) but it didn't suit and I prefer to have flexibility over cost. I have a couple of points to make, though:

Donations
I was offered the opportunity to add a donation when I checked out. The fare was £67.40 and I'd have happily rounded it up to £70, but it wouldn't let me do that. In the end I added £2 on top, but I think there should be an option to round up.

Reservations and Itinerary
I don't recall ticking any boxes for reservations, but I must have done so when buying my tickets. When I collected them from the station, the printer chucked out a load of additional bits of card that I wasn't expecting! It was only when I checked the email that I realised I'd been allocated reserved seats. It's probably something I've done during the booking process without realising and I'm not complaining about that; however, the itinerary that I was offered on the return was rather weird.

The ticket was an off-peak return from Forres to Kirkcaldy. Outbound, I went via Inverness and then changed again at Perth to go via Ladybank. Other than the barrier rejecting my ticket at Perth as I re-entered the station (sorted by the staff at the gate), I had no issues.

The journey back was rather puzzling, though. My intention was to catch a train leaving Kirkcaldy at 1312 - a train that was straight through to Aberdeen and due to arrive at 1505. The itinerary told me I should alight this train at Dundee at 1351, then board the 1408 service from Dundee (originating in Perth) and arrive in Aberdeen at 1517.

Both options, had they run to time, would have had me arrive in Aberdeen in good time to catch the 1524 to Inverness. My question is: why was I offered this rather silly itinerary? Was it simply because I'd inadvertently requested reserved seats?
 

Alex C.

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7 Jan 2014
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I am finding that Trainline are cheaper than the forum site and just wanted to flag - I regularly travel with last minute advances from Fratton to London pre 10am. Usually Trainline will spit out a split at Woking or Haslemere - cost is £26.79 including their fee (and this is pretty typical on that route).

The forum site is £28.22 with the same split - I presume this is due to the booking fees being a % rather than fixed but flagging in case there is something that can be done to improve this.
 

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