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[mad_rich]

I'm looking at a journey from Newcastle to Birmingham on Friday, departing at 1035. The site is offering me an Advance for £65.78 with splits at Darlington, York & Derby.

The flexible options for trains near then (0940, 1035, 1040 & 1140) are all priced slightly differently - I guess because of slightly different stopping patterns, and different splits.

So if I wanted the max flexibility, do I need to choose the most expensive flexible split - £90.44?

And if I bought the Advance split, but needed to change to a different service, would I just pay £10 + (£90.44-£65.78).

 

[Crossover]

So if I wanted the max flexibility, do I need to choose the most expensive flexible split - £90.44?

It depends on what the split is - it may be that it splits at a station which isn't served all that frequently, for example. You would need to review and make that decision

 

[mangyiscute]

In this situation the £90.44 would be valid on all of the train because it splits at Darlington, York, Sheffield and Derby, which are all served by all of those trains. In general, however, you would have to check where the splits are and then check whether the train(s) you wish to take stop at those stations.
The slightly cheaper £88.57 option has a split at Doncaster, whereas all of the trains at xx:40 serve Leeds instead, so this one wouldn't be valid on any of them.

 

[yorkie]

How many people actually buy off of Trainsplit and how many just take their suggestions and go and buy it via their own favourite retailer - saying them another few quid in the process?

Notwithstanding taxpayer funded cashback and stuff like perks, in terms of the actual ticket price, there is no actual saving to book elsewhere.

If you put the same tickets into your basket on our site, it would be the same price as the TOCs. I am not sure how anyone could possibly measure how many people engage in this underhand practice, though?!

I know at some ticket offices people want a ticket to X, a price is given, and then say it was cheaper on Trainline at y, because of a split but not explicitly referenced are requested, is it then permitted to sell the split without being in breach of impartial retailing rules?

Only if the customer specifically requests it.

Otherwise, this is considered to be "distorting the market"; employers may take a very dim view of this, and indeed LNER issued a reminder recently about this.

If a customer asks for a ticket from Newcastle to London on a Saturday, which allows full flexibility, a ticket office should charge £192.80 each way, with no mention of cheaper splits. If the customer doesn't want to pay that, then they should simply be lost as a customer, and not told of any cheaper options.

We can offer splits automatically, even though LNER don't want us to, but ticket office staff are specifically told they must not do this!

I'm looking at a journey from Newcastle to Birmingham on Friday, departing at 1035. The site is offering me an Advance for £65.78 with splits at Darlington, York & Derby.

The flexible options for trains near then (0940, 1035, 1040 & 1140) are all priced slightly differently - I guess because of slightly different stopping patterns, and different splits.

So if I wanted the max flexibility, do I need to choose the most expensive flexible split - £90.44?

Select flexible split, go to the next page and providing it's splitting at any of Darlington, York, Sheffield and Derby, and nowhere else, you effectively have full flexibility.

And if I bought the Advance split, but needed to change to a different service, would I just pay £10 + (£90.44-£65.78).

That's right; we only charge £10 for the whole journey to be changed, however retailers such as LNER, Trainline etc typically charge £10 per ticket. This was documented in the following thread:

Trainline are charging us a £10 admin fee for EACH TICKET to change the time of 3 Advance fares in one booking

Hello everyone! So my parents and I are going up to London on Monday the 18th and returning on Wednesday the 20th. Now as I was booking the tickets they booked the cheapest, of course, but didn't see that they were advance tickets. Now the inbound is okay, but the outbound has now become a...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

Notwithstanding taxpayer funded cashback and stuff like perks, in terms of the actual ticket price, there is no actual saving to book elsewhere.

Is the 10% credit for booking through Uber taxpayer funded?

 

[yorkie]

Is the 10% credit for booking through Uber taxpayer funded?

Perhaps an FOI request may uncover the deals, but there is no way that LNER, and their paretners can be funding all the cashback, deals, perks etc from ticket sales commission alone! The details are for another thread, but it's legitimate to point out that we are not on a level playing field, by any means!

It's also worth pointing out that the forum's site is backed by a very efficient team of people at Raileasy, which includes many knowledgeable forum members, and that needs to be paid for somehow too.

If people want to do as @CarrotPie suggests, we don't mind if people put each ticket into their basket individually to avoid the share of savings fee, but we do ask that people don't go to the really underhand method of booking with other companies. That isn't fair, though admittedly there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop people.

 

[Adam Williams]

Is the 10% credit for booking through Uber taxpayer funded?

No, it's VC money being thrown around.

 

[Haywain]

If a customer asks for a ticket from Newcastle to London on a Saturday, which allows full flexibility, a ticket office should charge £192.80 each way,

This, as I am sure you know, is nonsense. For someone travelling on Saturday there would be no reason to buy an Anytime single, and the clerk should ask questions to establish what the most appropriate ticket is for the journey requested before selling that ticket. It is extremely unlikely that this would lead to being asked to pay £192.80 each way.

Perhaps an FOI request may uncover the deals, but there is no way that LNER, and their paretners can be funding all the cashback, deals, perks etc from ticket sales commission alone! The details are for another thread, but it's legitimate to point out that we are not on a level playing field, by any means!

Thats just going down the political route of answering a different question to the one I asked.

 

[yorkie]

This, as I am sure you know, is nonsense. For someone travelling on Saturday there would be no reason to buy an Anytime single, and the clerk should ask questions to establish what the most appropriate ticket is for the journey requested before selling that ticket. It is extremely unlikely that this would lead to being asked to pay £192.80 each way.

It's not nonsense at all; LNER have abolished the Super Off Peak fares. OK so there are still a few more days until this takes effect; are you saying I am talking "nonsense" for a journey booked for this Saturday, but what I say is correct for the Saturday after? If so, yes, if you want to word it that way, you are quite right.

Thats just going down the political route of answering a different question to the one I asked.

Perhaps you can clarify the relevance of your question and where it fits into this thread. I wasn't wanting to get into specifics, and it's not really relevant to do so. The point is that it's not a level playing field. Bringing something else into it doesn't change that principle.

 

[CarrotPie]

If people want to do as @CarrotPie suggests, we don't mind if people put each ticket into their basket individually to avoid the share of savings fee, but we do ask that people don't go to the really underhand method of booking with other companies.

What's the difference between booking them separately on Trainsplit (no fee) and buying booking them separately with a TOC (no fee, possible extra perks)?

 

[yorkie]

What's the difference between booking them separately on Trainsplit (no fee) and buying booking them separately with a TOC (no fee, possible extra perks)?

There is no difference to what you pay.

But if you are using our services to find a good price and then giving the commission to another company, that is underhand; rather like going into a book shop and ordering online from a completely different company.

 

[Adam Williams]

What's the difference between booking them separately on Trainsplit (no fee) and buying booking them separately with a TOC (no fee, possible extra perks)?

The latter wastes cloud compute time and rewards an entity (the TOC) which has not bothered to invest in the R&D to offer passengers better value fares with splits.

The former gives at least some of the basic commission back to Raileasy, who pay staff and suppliers to provide the service you are exploiting.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps you can clarify the relevance of your question and where it fits into this thread.

The thread is about RailUK tickets, isn't it? You said that booking elsewhere for cashback is taxpayer funded but I don't believe that to be the case when I buy tickets from Uber and get a 10% credit for doing so. Unfortunately, you seem unable to recognise that other third party retailers offer incentives as well.

 

[yorkie]

The thread is about RailUK tickets, isn't it? You said that booking elsewhere for cashback is taxpayer funded but I don't believe that to be the case when I buy tickets from Uber and get a 10% credit for doing so.

I never claimed that all cashback is taxpayer funded.

Unfortunately, you seem unable to recognise that other third party retailers offer incentives as well.

This doesn't alter the point I was making! If it helps, I'll further counteract that we cannot compete with taxpayer funded cashback/perks or with the funding put in place by huge companies (particularly foreign-based companies who think the GB rail ticketing market is going to be lucrative for them).

Hopefully that clarifies?

At the end of the day, if everyone used us to find the best deals and booked elsewhere, we'd no longer be viable, and we'd no longer be offering any deals.

(and, for completeness, if no-one booked through our site and everyone blocked our ads, the forum wouldn't be viable either)

Fortunately, not everyone does this!

 

[liam456]

Hello all, I'm trying to book an itinerary from Liverpool South Parkway (returning from a flight at Liverpool Airport) to Glasgow Central, late on 04/04/24 and am running into issues when trying to connect onto the last Northbound Avanti service (1S98) at Warrington Bank Quay.



The above itinerary on trainsplit shows as unavailable to purchase tickets for. Also, trying to just book the Avanti leg (the most important one!) shows this as unavailable for purchase too. The Avanti site is happy to sell me a slightly different itinerary however. Their site will also happily sell me an itinerary just from Warrington Bank Quay up to Glasgow on that last down train to Glasgow.

Ideally I'd like to book through trainsplit, both so you guys get the commission and also to specify the increased connection time as per the screenshot above. Any ideas why the 1S98 train seems impossible to purchase through trainsplit?

 

[ainsworth74]

Looks like Avanti have got a mandatory reservation flag on that service. If you actually try to go and book that train on Avanti's website it fails saying "There are no more seats available to reserve for your chosen ticket on the outward/return service. The reservation is mandatory. You can change your service or ticket selection and try again." As the ticket that Avanti is trying to sell is a Off-Peak Single this is, of course, a nonsense as they don't actually enforce compulsory reservations but does make it much harder to buy tickets on some of their trains. I also find it hard to believe that two a bit months out that the train is fully reserved anyway!

I would suggest telling Trainsplit that you want to use the 1936 instead (search for 1930 rather than 2030 and make sure to switch to flexible mode), this finds a nice split at Oxenholme as well which saves you a bit of money compared to a through flexible single. Then travel as you originally planned to!

 

[liam456]

I’ve checked again since your reply @ainsworth74 and now I’m rather annoyed at myself; there were very cheap advances available for sale on Avanti’s site less than an hour ago when I made that post. That’s why I didn’t think it was a compulsory reservations flag issue. Great to know I can now expect to pay triple the price to travel on the one train I need….

Any ideas why Avanti would make only that last service compulsory reservation?

 

[Adam Williams]

Any ideas why Avanti would make only that last service compulsory reservation?

I think they do it on all their services, but of course it's up to the TOC as to whether they make reservations available on the service.

It's become fashionable for TOCs to blatantly lie about services being "compulsory reservations" and abuse this flag, which leads to this exact problem.

 

[liam456]

I think they do it on all their services, but of course it's up to the TOC as to whether they make reservations available on the service.

It's become fashionable for TOCs to blatantly lie about services being "compulsory reservations" and abuse this flag, which leads to this exact problem.

My guess is that it’s to reduce the possibility of people booking to travel on that last one in case they cancel it and leave themselves open to hotel bills or £300 taxis.

Presumably they can convince enough people to book for the second-to-last train. Such a shame ticketing can be so opaque in this way and that passengers ultimately lose.

 

[mad_rich]

Select flexible split, go to the next page and providing it's splitting at any of Darlington, York, Sheffield and Derby, and nowhere else, you effectively have full flexibility.

Thank you. I couldn’t find any way of searching that would result in those splits. It always involved at least one split somewhere else, that would render the tickets unsuitable for flexibility.

Is there any possibility perhaps in a future update for the search results to show which other trains the ticket combo would be valid on?

In the end I only bought York to Birmingham through the site, as that was the only way to force the right combination.

 

[randyrippley]

Just a heads up, but since recently making a couple of ticket purchases via the forum I'm now getting spam/touting e-mails direct from Trainsplit (specifically for the "Great British Rail sale).
I'm not so much bothered by the spam (it got blackholed automatically anyway) but it looks to me like a way to cut the forum out of the deal, so losing commission.

 

[Adam Williams]

Just a heads up, but since recently making a couple of ticket purchases via the forum

You signed up for the newsletter. There's a checkbox controlling the sign-up during the purchase flow, and an unsubscribe link in each email that's sent out.

There's no conspiracy to cut the forum out of commission, the forum's site is just as capable at highlighting and retailing Great British Rail Sale fares in exactly the same way as all the other TrainSplit frontends do. The (external) mailing system isn't nearly sophisticated enough as to know whether the customer is from a specific whitelabel or not (and what do you do if the customer has purchased from multiple different whitelabels?), which is why all the mailing links are generic. There's a very easy way to know if you're benefitting the forum or not with your purchase - you just have to glance at the top left and check if there's a giant RailUK logo displayed on screen or not.

 

[randyrippley]

I didn't knowingly sign up for it, which begs the question is the default set to "on"? I'm usually pretty good at spotting such unwanted options

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think they do it on all their services, but of course it's up to the TOC as to whether they make reservations available on the service.

It's become fashionable for TOCs to blatantly lie about services being "compulsory reservations" and abuse this flag, which leads to this exact problem.

Isn't that a good way of preventing the purchase of 'walk up' tickets? As per LNER's mission to make travel as difficult and unpleasant as possible introduce the airline experience.

If you can only buy online or at a TVM, and that purchase is itinerary based, effectively you cannot buy an 'open' ticket. What is required is a site that will sell, say, an Off Peak Return (the old Saver, code SVR) for a certain date (outward) and bother to seat reservations for any legs outward and bother to specifying the return date. Just like those fortunates who are still able to walk up to a ticket office and ask a real person can.

I look sadly to the grim inevitability of the day when a TVM refuses to sell me a ticket for immediate travel because 'there are no reservations available for your chosen departure'. I guess I'll have to resort to the 'TVM couldn't retail the ticket I wanted to buy' fallback and buy onboard!

 

[Mike395]

I didn't knowingly sign up for it, which begs the question is the default set to "on"? I'm usually pretty good at spotting such unwanted options

Yes it’s opt-out but the wording is clear - see screenshot

 

[Adam Williams]

I didn't knowingly sign up for it

Then apologies, but you must've unintentionally not fully read the text on the page where you purchased your tickets. It's definitely not hidden away or deliberately done in an underhanded way, it's in the same font size as the rest of inputs in the checkout flow (e.g. those telling you about the ability to send a donation, or the terms and conditions you're agreeing to) and the whole block occupies a good 300px by 115px on mobile. You can't get to the "Proceed to payment" button without having it displayed on-screen.

which begs the question is the default set to "on"?

Yes. It's worth noting that online retailers don't have to use an explicit "perform action to consent" sign-up flow, what's implemented there today is a fully PECR-compliant "soft opt-in" which is permitted as you can unsubscribe at any point and it's straightforward to opt-out during purchase. It's in-line with what other retailers do, too.

Most customers were happy to be given some notice about the release of govt subsidised, cheaper Advance tickets for their journey.

Isn't that a good way of preventing the purchase of 'walk up' tickets?

Definitely!

 

[Benjwri]

Yes it’s opt-out but the wording is clear - see screenshot

Just a note, you might want to change that, its a GDPR violation. Although the wording might mean that it is a grey area in this instance, messing with GDPR given its revenue based fines is probably best avoided. See ICO guidance attached below:
ICO PECR advice

What is the difference between ‘opt in’ and ‘opt out’?​

‘Opt in’ means a person has to take a specific positive step (eg tick a box, send an email, or click a button) to say they want marketing. ‘Opt out’ means a person must take a positive step to refuse or unsubscribe from marketing.

Some organisations provide opt-in boxes that are automatically pre-ticked. However, the UK GDPR is clear that pre-ticked boxes do not give valid consent.

You must use an ‘affirmative’ method of getting consent. We recommend you use unticked opt-in boxes wherever possible.

ICO Small Business Advice

What counts as consent for direct marketing?​

Data protection law has a high standard for what counts as consent. For consent to be valid, you must make it very clear to people exactly what they’re consenting to, and they need to give their consent freely. This means you can’t require consent in exchange for a service. You also need to make sure consent is given by an ‘affirmative action’ – or, in other words, the person actively takes a step to give you their consent. You can’t use pre-ticked opt-in boxes. People can withdraw their consent at any time and you should make it as easy as possible for them.

UK GDPR Guidance

The UK GDPR sets a high standard for consent, which must be unambiguous and involve a clear affirmative action (an opt-in).

It specifically bans pre-ticked opt-in boxes. It also requires distinct (‘granular’) consent options for distinct processing operations. Consent should be separate from other terms and conditions and should not generally be a precondition of signing up to a service.

 

[Adam Williams]

Just a note, you might want to change that, its a GDPR violation. Although the wording might mean that it is a grey area in this instance, messing with GDPR given its revenue based fines is probably best avoided. See ICO guidance attached below:
ICO PECR advice

ICO Small Business Advice

UK GDPR Guidance

It's not. Read my post.

(Yes, Raileasy has asked a data protection solicitor about this. There's an entire LIA on file covering this particular functionality. )

 

[mjc]

With my commuting likely to increase slightly I think it tips the balance in favour of flexi season tickets rather than purchasing for each day but, of course, split is still the cheapest option. Can I buy though through the forum site, and if so how please (with apologies if I’m missing the blindingly obvious!).

Thank you!

 

[Adam Williams]

With my commuting likely to increase slightly I think it tips the balance in favour of flexi season tickets rather than purchasing for each day but, of course, split is still the cheapest option. Can I buy though through the forum site, and if so how please (with apologies if I’m missing the blindingly obvious!).

Thank you!

Raileasy don't sell these at present, I'm afraid. As you note, they tend to represent poor value for a lot of passengers in many cases, though I take the point about convenience.

My understanding is that we can thank HMT for the measly discount they currently give, as when they were originally proposed they were slated to actually give a reasonable chunk off, closer to what you'd get with an annual or monthly season ticket.