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Invalid Ticket

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gray1404

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Is there an audit trail as to when etickets have been processed through a ticket barrier or checked on board, usually by the barcode being scanned? If so, would the fact the person checking on board have been able to see there was no such data held against the ticket. Thus an indication that although activated for use, there was no evidence of actual use at that point.
 
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some bloke

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Perhaps including something like this would be useful:

"Please supply evidence that the ticket was not valid. The return portion is valid for a month and can be used over several days if the journey is broken. I am unable to find clear evidence that it is only valid if activated on the day the journey is started, either in the National Rail Conditions of Travel or in Omio's terms and conditions
(https://www.omio.co.uk/terms-of-use)."


[The Conditions of Travel are at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx ]
 
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WesternLancer

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reading this I suspect that english is not the OPs 1st language, they may need a letter composing in draft to help respond to the letter from TIL, if any volunteers out there.

If I have understood the case correctly, this sort of thing makes me want to buy such a ticket, get on the train and when the staff alleges that it may have been used before, invoke the break of journey clause, show the conditions of travel that permit it, and say, yes, I have used it on a previous day as I'm fully entitled to do. It might even be nice to pop along to a court and say all that there, if one had time.
 

Brissle Girl

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How about then:-

Further to your previous letters, I still don't understand why you think my ticket was not valid. The return part of my ticket (an off peak return) was valid for one month from the 28th September, and it was being used, for the first time, on the 29th. I've not been able to find any terms on conditions, either in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, nor the omio terms and conditions, that required me to validate the ticket only on the day of travel. Indeed, I understand that the ticket can be used for a break of journey over several days, which if what you say is true regarding validation of the ticket, would mean anyone breaking their journey in that way would be travelling invalidly. Surely that would be an untenable position for the rail industry to take?

In my previous letter I offered to make a settlement, as, based on your letter, I was led to believe that it was my mistake to have validated the ticket at the same time as my outward journey. Having now investigated the situation further and taken advice, I don't believe you have any grounds for taking action against me, and so am withdrawing my offer of a settlement. I therefore ask that you confirm that you are dropping the case against me, but if you continue then I shall be obliged to contest the case in court, on the grounds stated above.

Someone ought to test this out, and then go to the media (eg You and Yours, Moneybox, on Radio 4), to force the industry to clarify the position and compensate anyone unfairly fined to date, in the same way that the industry was forced to do with incorrect calculation of penalty fare amounts recently.
 

30907

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Perhaps including something like this would be useful:

"Please supply evidence that the ticket was not valid. The return portion is valid for a month and can be used over several days if the journey is broken. I am unable to find clear evidence that it is only valid if activated on the day the journey is started..... in Omio's terms and conditions
(https://www.omio.co.uk/terms-of-use)."

2. Booking via external third-party providers
Our results page includes direct links to the booking pages of the respective third-party providers. Clicking on a link will redirect you to the third-party provider's booking page, where you can purchase the corresponding service and make a reservation.

A contract for travel services will only be concluded with the respective third party. For this reason, only the conditions of the relevant third-party provider will apply to the travel services booked in this manner (bookings and reservations).

The linked quote from omio makes it clear that you need also to refer to the ticket issuer's T&Cs. Trainline (which XC use) makes it clear that you should only activate a ticket on the day of travel.

https://www.thetrainline.com/en/help/question/4500/how-do-i-downloadactivate-my-mobile-tickets
You will need to activate your downloaded ticket before travelling, however this should only be done on the day of travel and once you are sure you will be travelling that day. Activating your ticket is irreversible, once it’s been activated it cannot be changed, refunded or moved so we recommend you only activate it just before boarding.

The OP is thus in the wrong per the T&Cs. They would need to argue that the condition about activation is insufficiently clear when booking via Omio. Maybe someone who has used the app could take a look?

BTW: the BoJ issue is strictly irrelevant to the OP's situation, though it is entirely relevant to the general issue that m-tickets are thoroughly unsatisfactory for flexible tickets.
 

some bloke

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Trainline (which XC use) makes it clear that you should only activate a ticket on the day of travel.
Perhaps I'm missing something. I thought the OP just used the Omio app, so that Trainline conditions wouldn't be visible to them and wouldn't apply.
 

30907

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Perhaps I'm missing something. I thought the OP just used the Omio app, so that Trainline conditions wouldn't be visible to them and wouldn't apply.
Omio say in the paragraph I quoted that Trainline's (or whoever's) T&Cs apply.
Depending how the app works (and I have no experience) the relevant information should appear. If not, the OP has a better case.
 

najaB

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The linked quote from omio makes it clear that you need also to refer to the ticket issuer's T&Cs. Trainline (which XC use) makes it clear that you should only activate a ticket on the day of travel.
This has come up before and that specific point has been noted. But (and I sound like @yorkie here...) consumer law says that where two sets of T&C's are in conflict the more favourable to the consumer must prevail.

The T&C's for Off Peak tickets say that the return portion is valid for a month, so it's valid for a month.
 

some bloke

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The linked quote from omio makes it clear that you need also to refer to the ticket issuer's T&Cs.

That paragraph is for people redirected to third party web pages. The OP said he purchased in the Omio app.

The website, at least, gives no indication of Trainline conditions being applicable, only Omio/GoEuro's.

Omio - Mozilla Firefox 14_12_2019 10_00_55 cro.png
 

WesternLancer

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How about then:-

Further to your previous letters, I still don't understand why you think my ticket was not valid. The return part of my ticket (an off peak return) was valid for one month from the 28th September, and it was being used, for the first time, on the 29th. I've not been able to find any terms on conditions, either in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, nor the omio terms and conditions, that required me to validate the ticket only on the day of travel. Indeed, I understand that the ticket can be used for a break of journey over several days, which if what you say is true regarding validation of the ticket, would mean anyone breaking their journey in that way would be travelling invalidly. Surely that would be an untenable position for the rail industry to take?

In my previous letter I offered to make a settlement, as, based on your letter, I was led to believe that it was my mistake to have validated the ticket at the same time as my outward journey. Having now investigated the situation further and taken advice, I don't believe you have any grounds for taking action against me, and so am withdrawing my offer of a settlement. I therefore ask that you confirm that you are dropping the case against me, but if you continue then I shall be obliged to contest the case in court, on the grounds stated above.

Someone ought to test this out, and then go to the media (eg You and Yours, Moneybox, on Radio 4), to force the industry to clarify the position and compensate anyone unfairly fined to date, in the same way that the industry was forced to do with incorrect calculation of penalty fare amounts recently.

Yes, nicely done I think - hope the OP can use this or a tweak of it.

A.h - are you still checking this thread?
 

WesternLancer

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Please help me, what shall I do? I’m completely lost. I want to settle this thing out of the court, i just want to end this.
Hi are you still checking this? See post #35 for a very helpful draft response you can copy and use on this.
 

30907

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That paragraph is for people redirected to third party web pages. The OP said he purchased in the Omio app.

The website, at least, gives no indication of Trainline conditions being applicable, only Omio/GoEuro's.

View attachment 71561
In that case I have misunderstood Omio's role. I think we are agreed that the OP may have a defence that s/he was not informed of the relevant T&Cs.
 

some bloke

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In that case I have misunderstood Omio's role. I think we are agreed that the OP may have a defence that s/he was not informed of the relevant T&Cs.
I'm not even sure Trainline conditions are relevant, so I'd prefer the form of words I used earlier, and in @Brissle Girl's draft.
 

some bloke

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There might be an argument that purchases via Omio mean you accept the terms of an XC mobile ticket, or that you accept XC terms for their treating mobile tickets as valid.

But that might be a bit complex for a prosecutor. It isn't obvious in the website booking process that it is an XC ticket rather than an Omio ticket, or that XC terms for activation apply.
 
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30907

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I'm not even sure Trainline conditions are relevant, so I'd prefer the form of words I used earlier, and in @Brissle Girl's draft.

If Omio is a licensed retailer in its own right, then I agree it is their responsibility to make the T&Cs relating to m tickets clear.

I am unable to find clear evidence that it is only valid if activated on the day the journey is started....in the National Rail Conditions of Travel
.

Sorry, but condition 4.2 refers
4.2. Some Tickets are held as an electronic record on a smartcard or electronic device or may be transmitted to you for you to print out yourself. In such cases you will be advised of (and must comply with) the specific conditions applying to Tickets held in those formats.
 

some bloke

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condition 4.2 refers
The point remains: the Conditions of Travel don't contain clear evidence that activation must be that day.

They refer to other conditions, and the proposal was to ask the company for the evidence.
 

some bloke

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Condition of Travel 4.2 says passengers will be advised of the specific conditions. If that wasn't done, the company has a problem in arguing that on that ground the passenger is at fault.
 

some bloke

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The company might say "you were advised of the conditions, in the app's instructions for activating the ticket". Whether that would count as "conditions" for 4.2 is another matter.

My and @Brissle Girl's proposed forms of words for a reply are specifically about formal terms and conditions.
 

SteveM70

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The linked quote from omio makes it clear that you need also to refer to the ticket issuer's T&Cs. Trainline (which XC use) makes it clear that you should only activate a ticket on the day of travel.

https://www.thetrainline.com/en/help/question/4500/how-do-i-downloadactivate-my-mobile-tickets


The OP is thus in the wrong per the T&Cs. They would need to argue that the condition about activation is insufficiently clear when booking via Omio. Maybe someone who has used the app could take a look?

BTW: the BoJ issue is strictly irrelevant to the OP's situation, though it is entirely relevant to the general issue that m-tickets are thoroughly unsatisfactory for flexible tickets.

It’s an incredibly poorly worded statement - it advises the need to activate the ticket (singular) prior to travel and makes no mention of treating the two legs of a return separately. To me, it’d be perfectly reasonable to expect a lay user of the railways having bought a ticket (singular) to read the instructions and activate it in its entirety.
 

Western Sunset

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Totally agree Steve. On reading the above, it states that you must activate before travel. No wonder punters make so many inadvertent errors.
 

exile

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Nope. Reasonable guess though. It was actually because the phone (for reasons known only to itself) decided to switch to IP-geolocation rather than GPS and I was connected to a VPN tunnel (I had six or seven satellite GPS lock at the time).

As I said, location history only shows you where the phone though it was. It doesn't prove anything.

In this case, the passenger doesn't need to prove anything. A GPS record showing him as being in Derby rather than Bristol is EVIDENCE that this is where he was. Of course he could have given his phone to a mate and made a return trip to Bristol. Or pixies might have altered his GPS record. Or aliens might have abducted him from Bristol and dropped him back in Derby. But the most likely explanation is that he stayed in Derby.
 

Llanigraham

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In this case, the passenger doesn't need to prove anything. A GPS record showing him as being in Derby rather than Bristol is EVIDENCE that this is where he was. Of course he could have given his phone to a mate and made a return trip to Bristol. Or pixies might have altered his GPS record. Or aliens might have abducted him from Bristol and dropped him back in Derby. But the most likely explanation is that he stayed in Derby.

No, all it proves is the phone was at a place, not the person.
 

SteveM70

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Which makes one wonder why phone GPS history was even brought up in the first place?

Because it could be seen as relevant albeit circumstantial evidence for somebody trying to build a defence against a false allegation
 

jumble

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The linked quote from omio makes it clear that you need also to refer to the ticket issuer's T&Cs. Trainline (which XC use) makes it clear that you should only activate a ticket on the day of travel.

https://www.thetrainline.com/en/help/question/4500/how-do-i-downloadactivate-my-mobile-tickets


The OP is thus in the wrong per the T&Cs. They would need to argue that the condition about activation is insufficiently clear when booking via Omio. Maybe someone who has used the app could take a look?

BTW: the BoJ issue is strictly irrelevant to the OP's situation, though it is entirely relevant to the general issue that m-tickets are thoroughly unsatisfactory for flexible tickets.

This condition is absurd
If I am not allowed to activate my ticket shortly before I go through the barriers and then my phone rings, something crops up and I decide not to travel at that time but the next day instead.
This scenario has imposed an unnecessary and unwanted restriction on the validity of my ticket compared to a paper ticket.
This kind of thing is why I will only ever use paper tickets or print at home
The technology and implementation is flawed since some rail staff do not appear to understand how it works and no way am I ever going to waste my time with this.
 
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