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Is anywhere else any better, really?

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21C101

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Not sure why there is this view that York is a small city (it's often stated) - depending what you include, it's getting up towards 200,000 people. So not Leeds or Sheffield, but by no means a small city. I lived there for years and the city centre has become a lot less diversified than it was a couple of decades ago - any time a business of any type closed, it seemed to become a restaurant or bar. Locals tended to mostly do their shopping in the out of town shopping centres. I'm back there with work often, but I think I've only been into the city centre once in eighteen months.

I think Leeds might actually weather this OK - it will remain the regional capital and the main shopping centre, and I remain unconvinced that working from home is going to remain in favour long-term with the type of legal and financial businesses which are big employers in the city.

It's probably going to be the second-rank cities and large towns which really get hit hardest. It was already noticeable before this - look at the centres of places like Bradford, Hull, Doncaster, Oldham - they are getting quite run-down, with a lot of empty shops. I've been to Sheffield a few times recently, and that's quite noticeably going downhill too - empty shops even in the main shopping streets. Meadowhall didn't do it a lot of good, but up until recently the city centre generally seemed to be doing OK.
I think what I am trying to say is that places like York and Exeter have a disproportionate number of people going into the city centre for reasons other than working in an office or shopping compared with Birmingham and Leeds, so will remain prosperous (and as a result a more desirable location for the remaining offices).

I agree that places like Oldham have a fairly grim future for the reasons you state.

I think it will start to become a serious civil cohesion issue when the current situation of city house prices and rents being typically higher than suburban/market town/rural house prices reverses and people find themselves trapped in what increasingly resemble ghettos.

That divide is already manifesting politically in England with, increasingly, non Tory MPs being restricted to the big six cities (London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield and Leeds) with Tory MPs elected in most other places (even places like Blyth) and Labours magority in the seats they still hold outside the big six cities, except a handful of seats in small university cities like Cambridge Canterbury and Exeter.
 
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biko

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With run down town and city centres, I wonder if this is quite a British thing when compared to the rest of the continent.

The last German city I went to was Aachen in 2019, which has a population of 246,000 (though no doubt attracts many more from a larger catchment area). The centre was really thriving, with busy shops and not really any noticeable empty shops. It was quite a big shopping area too across many streets. This felt like a contrast to many UK towns and cities, with their various empty shops, or charity, betting, vape shops or nail bars.

I’m not sure how Germany and other countries are different in still having thriving town/city centres as they must surely also have online shopping and out-of-town supermarkets and so on. However looking at Aachen, there doesn’t seem to be any significant out-of-town shopping, apart from supermarkets and small stores, as well as light industry and specialist shops.
Obviously I’m sure there are exceptions on the continent, but that isn’t the general feel I get when visiting various towns and cities.
I think deprivation is a trend seen everywhere in Europe, but maybe the speed is higher in the UK? You’re right that Germany has fewer out-of-town shopping and you also don’t really have that in the Netherlands, but still you can find many examples of grim, half-empty town centres in both countries. The problem in the Netherlands is mainly online shopping and that leads to empty shops in all large towns and small cities. Especially after a large department store went bankrupt many cities and towns are now without one and have a large empty building in the middle of the centre. The main exception are the large cities where every empty shop is filled by some tourist trap or sometimes an independent shop.

I expect Aachen falls in the latter category as far as you can compare the situation in the Netherlands with Germany.

If you look at France, these problems are much more visible. All towns are quite empty possible due to the enormous out-of-town shopping centres.
 

RT4038

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Everywhere will have its ups and downs, they may just be different from ours. And there will always be an element of the grass is greener for some people too regardless of where they are at any one time.
Quite agree. I have lived for fairly long periods in two other countries, quite different from each other, but both having English as an official language but not the vernacular of the majority of residents, and the UK.

As you rightly say, all three have roughly the same amount of pros and cons, and really you have to decide which set suits you (and your family) personally the best. The scenery, weather and economy are all very well, but as a tourist visiting you are not competing with those born there for jobs and resources, you probably don't come into contact with (apart from in a benign way) their civil administration and law enforcement agencies, and what is the quality and funding arrangements for health and social security, particularly if you fall seriously ill or lose your job?

Nonetheless, I would recommend anyone who has the opportunity to live and work in foreign country to take up the opportunity. It will give considerable experience, and provides you with a different view of your own country, both good and bad! It provided me with another country I can call Home, but also the view that the grass is (wonderfully) different on the other side of the border, rather than anything to do with the shade.
 

eMeS

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As someone from a mix of ethnicities and able to trace family members across the world, I like to think I have quite an objective view as to whether a country is a "good" place or a "bad" place to live.

Because of various skills and a good level of income, I qualify for Belize residency which I enjoy, but I am in no doubt that Belize as a country for "ordinary" people is a very different experience. It was always just the place I occasionally did business, or spent my free time when I needed a break from my usual life.

I struggle to see any real benefit to living in the UK, and think it can only continue to decline. On a local level, amenities and facilities are becoming increasingly run down (or closed down), the condition of roads and other key infrastructure is in real, serious decay, and this (broadly) seems to play out across England at least, despite pledges of £billions being made available for such things. Our council taxes are rising well above inflation and cost of living, supposedly to fund things like additional policing and social care. Our income taxes are effectively rising because of the tax thresholds remaining static for some years into the future, supposedly to pay for Coronavirus.

Our legal system has been decimated, and is becoming increasingly neutralised, and from first hand experience, it's causing the collapse of our legal services. Whether it's the deep, deep cuts to physical court infrastructure, a judicial recruitment crisis or the hand of the government in making increasingly strange laws, increasing sentence levels despite knowing there's no realistic possibility of it ever being used, and more recently, an obvious attempt to neuter the judicial review process.

Rents are high, houses are overpriced. Town, and now city centres are obliterated. Even the retail parks on the outskirts are becoming derelict. Life is expensive, but is it enjoyable? Even outside of Coronavirus, are our lives really that good? Discontent is starting to bubble over, not just from Covid, but underlying social and economic issues going back many years have never been resolved, and merely glossed over. I say, with some confidence, that by the end of 2021, the UK will be in severe civil unrest, ordinary, everyday people, from any end of the political spectrum or class hierarchy are feeling increasingly disillusioned. They may be disillusioned about different things, but the net outcome is still going to be the same. Recent events in Bristol and London are just a taste. People are increasingly realising that the police are actually quite weak, Bristol required resources from two separate police forces to bring it under control, and that was just a few hundred people in the end, with a net result that a police station got smashed up, and the loss of a couple of vehicles. People are awakening to the fact that it is not the police or government which actually hold the power.

I now look at Belize as a place I can "escape" to, almost exile to, not just as a place to relax and conduct international business. I don't think it's really much better at all, underneath, and there is serious inequality, but I would contend that it is still preferable to remaining in the UK, where there is not even any real attempt to even disguise the inequality anymore and I am having to contribute an increasingly large amount of my income in a vein attempt to somehow reverse the decline of the country.

Many won't be able to do the same thing, and have a "Plan B" country - but my question for you all is, outside of the UK, is the world any better? Have some countries got it right? Are some countries making enhancements to key areas of life that are being eroded in the UK?

COVID has just sped everything up in my opinion. The decline of the economy, of our infrastructure, of our lifestyles, the increasing restrictions on our lives, the need to hand over more of our income, and government neutralising anything and anyone that poses a threat to its existence or power. We'd have still reached this point even without a pandemic, just would have taken a decade longer.

Just because we aren't being blown up in Syria, or facing true poverty as in parts of Africa, does not mean that our own issues in the UK are somehow negated.
What do you mean by "decimated" in the above? That it's one tenth of what it was? Or something quite different?
 

WelshBluebird

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What do you mean by "decimated" in the above? That it's one tenth of what it was? Or something quite different?
I think its fairly obvious it is being used to mean "drastically reduce the strength or effectiveness of (something)" (from the oxford dictionary).
 
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My wife loves Austria, particularly the Tyrol. We have gone there every summer since 1993, and always really enjoy it. The issue is the very short summer season, nothing appears to be open in April and May. We went on a trip to Innsbruck for the Christmas market and travelled to the place where we stay in the summer. Just about everything was closed and it was bitterly cold. So, what is lovely during the summer may be pretty poor during the rest of the year. We haven't been in the skiing season so we don't know what it's like in the spring. So, without speaking much German, what would we do with ourselves for the long dark winter days.

It is the same everywhere, many people going off to wonderful sunny Spain and returning due to (probably) boredom within a year. The grass is certainly not always greener.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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Ireland is the place to go, if one is young and free. If one gets residency in the EU one may choose from dozens of countries. lf I were young I should seriously think about Poland, Romania, Baltics, they are catching up or even overtaking. But in my second life, for a really challenging experience, I should try Japan, a country with very few 'foreigners'.
 

theironroad

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My wife loves Austria, particularly the Tyrol. We have gone there every summer since 1993, and always really enjoy it. The issue is the very short summer season, nothing appears to be open in April and May. We went on a trip to Innsbruck for the Christmas market and travelled to the place where we stay in the summer. Just about everything was closed and it was bitterly cold. So, what is lovely during the summer may be pretty poor during the rest of the year. We haven't been in the skiing season so we don't know what it's like in the spring. So, without speaking much German, what would we do with ourselves for the long dark winter days.

It is the same everywhere, many people going off to wonderful sunny Spain and returning due to (probably) boredom within a year. The grass is certainly not always greener.

This is something some people don't consider.

The north of Scotland in June is a different beast to December. Lovely long days, quite busy and facilities open, better weather and people think how lovely it would be to live there.

Fast forward to December and very short daylight , weather harsher and much quieter.

That's not to say that north scotland isnt still a great place in December, (I don't live in Scotland) but is good to see a 'holiday place' year round for a realistic view.
 

kermit

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I have long been under the impression that Bournemouth was "the" place to retire to, so naturally assumed it must be lovely. But having just scoured its Wiki page, it seems the average age of residents is 40, and there have recently been surges in anti social behaviour. Another illusion shattered, Bournemouth off the list. Llandudno??
 

yorksrob

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I have long been under the impression that Bournemouth was "the" place to retire to, so naturally assumed it must be lovely. But having just scoured its Wiki page, it seems the average age of residents is 40, and there have recently been surges in anti social behaviour. Another illusion shattered, Bournemouth off the list. Llandudno??

Perhaps I'm getting older, but Eastbourne still looks like a very well heeled, tidy place to retire to.
 

nlogax

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I have long been under the impression that Bournemouth was "the" place to retire to, so naturally assumed it must be lovely. But having just scoured its Wiki page, it seems the average age of residents is 40, and there have recently been surges in anti social behaviour. Another illusion shattered, Bournemouth off the list. Llandudno??
Bournemouth is a fairly grim place in parts and especially out of season. Been that way since the 1980s. Visitors don't really notice while they're on the beach or in a nice hotel or b&b.
 

21C101

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Bournemouth is a fairly grim place in parts and especially out of season. Been that way since the 1980s. Visitors don't really notice while they're on the beach or in a nice hotel or b&b.
I gather the county council were fairly brutal when it came to social care funding as there were so many elderly residents. Don't know whether anything has changed now the town is a unitary authority.

Heading this way too:

 
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nlogax

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I gather the county council were fairly brutal when it came to social care funding as there were so many elderly residents. Don't know whether anything has changed now the town is a unitary authority.

Bournemouth's reputation as a 'nice place to retire' seems to continue apace.

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19122379.bournemouth-rated-third-best-uk-city-retire/

BOURNEMOUTH has been named as third best UK 'city' to retire in.
The rankings were created by an index-based points system based on a number of social and geographical factors, such as crime level, annual sunshine, quality of healthcare, house prices and access to leisure activities.

Personally, if I were close to retiring that area would be near the bottom of my list.
 

JonasB

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I’m not sure how Germany and other countries are different in still having thriving town/city centres as they must surely also have online shopping and out-of-town supermarkets and so on.

That is a problem that exists in Germany and other countries as well. But my impression (fancy name for a guess) is that city planning, especially when it comes to transport, has a lot to do with it. The UK often feels very car-centric compared to mainland Europe, and without people on bikes, foot and public transport the city centres will have a harder time.
 

TheSeeker

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Everywhere has its pros and cons.

I left my home in Wales after graduation for a job in Belgium and have lived here ever since. One big difference I notice with the UK is that Belgium is more socially caring and much less commercial and competitive.

The sense of community also feels very different to the UK. My local street has a neighbours committee organising an annual street market, easter egg hunt, father christmas bringing gifts etc.

Local government is well organised and actually local to its citizens. I can go to the town hall which is within walking distance for almost any service I need (renew driving license, passport, ask to block the street if moving house) and talk to a real person. When my gas meter was changed last winter a person from the town hall helped me negotiate with the energy company to get re-connected as quickly as possible as we had no heating or hot water.

Work life feels much more caring and concerned about its employees compared to the UK. Working in telecoms I've seen many redundancies but each time the strong employment protection laws made sure people got a fair deal. My annual salary is divided into 13.5 months, giving me extra holiday pay in June and Christmas pay in December. Unions and union protection are more prevalent. I'm a white collar technology worker but member of a union (technology and metal workers).

Schools are well run and based on my own childrens experience the quality of education is very high. Maybe it is part of the culture here but there seems to be very little of the dropping out of school that you see in the UK.

The flip side of that is that society is very homogenic. Everyone seems to wear the same type of clothes, go on holiday to the same places. Just a theory but the lack of youth unemployment and broad middle class seems to affect the culture and creativity of the country. In the UK I always thought that being on the dole pushed a lot of young people to become more creative. Forming bands, starting companies etc.

People ask me why I like Belgium when "the weather is so bad", I laugh and say "I'm from Wales where it's even worse!".

All comes at a price of course. I pay 52% income tax.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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@TheSeeker Belgium the new Germany? Is 52% the marginal rate on relatively high earnings? Homogeneous where you live maybe, but what about conflicts between Flemings and Walloons?
 
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alex397

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Travelling around Europe certainly opened my eyes to some of the cons of living in the UK. The UK is good, and has its advantages, but there are some issues which need to be dealt with, and some issues which are worsening.

I’m sure others have different opinions, but your experience of Belgium is certainly showing how quality of life could improve by living there.


I’ve only been to Belgium as a tourist, but I’ve always been impressed. Seemingly less deprivation, friendly people, decent public transport which is relatively cheap and easy to use (although accessibility for disabled people is probably better in the UK), didn’t feel unsafe walking the streets whereas in the UK you have to be careful not to make eye contact with certain types. An exception is Brussels where I feel like you have to be careful (well, you should be careful anywhere, but Brussels did feel a bit dodgy in places).
Not to mention the excellent beer and laid-back pubs there.
 

yorksrob

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From my limited trips abroad, I've got the impression that The Netherlands have a good grip on quality of life issues. The cities I've been to seem to be pleasant environmentally in terms of scale, architecture and ameneties.
 
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I gather the county council were fairly brutal when it came to social care funding as there were so many elderly residents. Don't know whether anything has changed now the town is a unitary authority.

Heading this way too:


Bournemouth had been a Unitary Authority for years, as had neighbouring Poole and also Christchurch. They had little connection with Dorset County Council. That was until 31st March 2019. Then it all changed. Bournemouth, Poole and Christchurch individual Unitary Authorities were combined into Bournemouth, Poole and Christchurch Council, now known as BCP. At the same time the previous lower levels of council (Weymouth and Portland, West Dorset, North Dorset, East Dorset and Purbeck) were combined with Dorset County Council to give a Unitary renamed Dorset Council.

I don't know exactly when (I haven't checked) when Dorset County Council's involvement in Bournemouth ended but it is many years ago. Sorry It is so complicated. My Mother-in-Law lives in the new BCP area and she doesn't understand it. Mind you, she is nearly 91.
 

route101

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Ireland is the place to go, if one is young and free. If one gets residency in the EU one may choose from dozens of countries. lf I were young I should seriously think about Poland, Romania, Baltics, they are catching up or even overtaking. But in my second life, for a really challenging experience, I should try Japan, a country with very few 'foreigners'.
I was looking at jobs in Ireland, not as many positions over there for ones I wanted. I would like to move and live an another country or even other part of UK. I worked in Australia a decade ago, work was work I suppose.
 

D6130

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Bournemouth had been a Unitary Authority for years, as had neighbouring Poole and also Christchurch. They had little connection with Dorset County Council. That was until 31st March 2019. Then it all changed. Bournemouth, Poole and Christchurch individual Unitary Authorities were combined into Bournemouth, Poole and Christchurch Council, now known as BCP. At the same time the previous lower levels of council (Weymouth and Portland, West Dorset, North Dorset, East Dorset and Purbeck) were combined with Dorset County Council to give a Unitary renamed Dorset Council.

I don't know exactly when (I haven't checked) when Dorset County Council's involvement in Bournemouth ended but it is many years ago. Sorry It is so complicated. My Mother-in-Law lives in the new BCP area and she doesn't understand it. Mind you, she is nearly 91.
Probably showing my age here, but the last time I had look up something non-railway about Bournemouth it was still in Hampshire!
 

biko

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From my limited trips abroad, I've got the impression that The Netherlands have a good grip on quality of life issues. The cities I've been to seem to be pleasant environmentally in terms of scale, architecture and ameneties.
I'd agree that most city centres are really nice over here, but there are sufficient worse areas if you leave the more touristy areas. And every city has ugly suburbs, so I would disagree on architecture. What I do really like is the scale, everything is cycleable (is that a word?). I don't drive a car, but I still can get around my home city easily just by cycling.

A bit of an opposite to the idea of the thread maybe, but if I would want to emigrate, the UK would be an option for me. From my experience as a tourist, many (larger) cities seem vibrant, I like the architecture of older buildings and the landscape is generally much more interesting than over here. Also the culture seems nice and more polite than over here.

Overall, I believe you really don't know if somewhere is a good place to live until you really have lived there. My image of Belgium as a place to live was that it is a chaotic and inefficient version of the Netherlands, but reading the good experiences of @TheSeeker that probably is just prejudice.
 

yorksrob

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Overall, I believe you really don't know if somewhere is a good place to live until you really have lived there. My image of Belgium as a place to live was that it is a chaotic and inefficient version of the Netherlands, but reading the good experiences of @TheSeeker that probably is just prejudice.

This is true. Although I took a punt on moving up North and I've been up here for twenty five years !
 

birchesgreen

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The North West calls me more and more. I would like to live in or near Liverpool. I did live in Crosby as a bab (and am half scouse). To be honest i went there a couple of years ago and walking on that beach reflecting on the decision of my parents to move to Brum in the mid 70s actually made me angry. :lol:
 

TheSeeker

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My image of Belgium as a place to live was that it is a chaotic and inefficient version of the Netherlands,
This is probably true. Politics here is insanely complicated. There is massive inefficient duplication at Federal, regional (four regions, each with their own parliament) and city level. A side effect of the linguistic differences where every group must have its say and representation. Brussels for example is made up from 19 boroughs, each with it's own mayor and council. Decisions for the whole city are very hard to make.

Working for several years in the Netherlands in Den Haag (commuting on the NS international train and even the Fyra a couple of times) I found they are a very practical, logical people who speak their minds. This is reflected in the much better organisation of society.

But to honest I quite like the "bumbling, make it up as you go along" style of life in Belgium. Once you get used to the huge amounts of paperwork which is part of everyday life :)

I got divorced last year and my family assumed I would move back to the UK. I think it's too late for that now. I'm more Belgian than British.
 
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Probably showing my age here, but the last time I had look up something non-railway about Bournemouth it was still in Hampshire!

Pre 1974 then. I came to Dorset in 1976 and two of the remnants of Hampshire were the name County Gates and the Hampshire Centre, now the site of the Castlepoint shopping centre.
 

notlob.divad

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Where did you move away to? And was the grass greener?
4 years ago, I moved to live with my partner in Gdynia on the north coast of Poland. I feel like I have moved to a young growing city in a growing and prosperous country. Yes there are problems, (particularly politics at a national level) but nothing like the problems I had with life in the UK.

In the UK I lived in a declining provincial town that had seen its economy and manufacturing base stripped to the bone. Despite having a decent graduate job I could never have afforded to live somewhere else, meaning I was always going to be the wrong side of the growing wealth gap driven by location based house prices. Moving here, I have been able to get a similar job which, despite the lower wage, along with my partner I feel we have been able to get on the right side of that wealth gap. The fact that in absolute terms we are possibly less well off to than if we were in the UK, relatively and quality of life wise on a day-to-day basis, we feel far better off.

If you are going by the 'grass is greener' analogy... maybe it isn't, but then if you are only judging the grass by its colour, rather than the quantity, taste, and nutritional value, you are probably not going to come to an optimised answer.
 

DerekC

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If I was 30something instead of 70something, I would have gone after the Brexit vote. Where to? Either Copenhagen (based on living there for two years) or somewhere in Canada, based on lots of time there off and on. I hope this country will eventually recover, but it's going to take a long time. As it is, I need to stay here to help my kids and grandkids get through it.
 
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