Is anywhere else any better, really?

[Gareth]

There is a bit of a particularlism with the English middle class and their conviction that the UK is uniquely terrible and everywhere else is better. Orwell once articulated this in quite a thorough way, so it's not a new phenomenon.

Not that the UK is perfect in any sense. Personally, I'm increasingly getting a feeling of despair with the fact we increasingly cannot say anything or do anything (since Coronavirus) without risk of the bill popping round to express their disappointment in you; with your employer somehow finding out about it also. Anarchy, statue-smashing, an obsession with race, gender and other immutable characteristics. The worst thing is, a fair chunk of the country seems to onboard with at least some of this.

The thing is though, it's not just a UK thing. Continental Europe is certainly not much better and even worse on some of these issues. Seems like a West-wide decline. That leaves not many industrialised nations to go to. Japan & South Korea would appeal in some ways but wouldn't be necessarily easy to be allowed in. Also, it's not straightforward adapting to non-Western cultures. I've lived in Hong Kong, so I know a bit about it.

It might have to be a move to a much poorer country: build a school, teach English, that sort of thing.

 

[yorksrob]

There is a bit of a particularlism with the English middle class and their conviction that the UK is uniquely terrible and everywhere else is better. Orwell once articulated this in quite a thorough way, so it's not a new phenomenon.

Not that the UK is perfect in any sense. Personally, I'm increasingly getting a feeling of despair with the fact we increasingly cannot say anything or do anything (since Coronavirus) without risk of the bill popping round to express their disappointment in you; with your employer somehow finding out about it also. Anarchy, statue-smashing, an obsession with race, gender and other immutable characteristics. The worst thing is, a fair chunk of the country seems to onboard with at least some of this.

The thing is though, it's not just a UK thing. Continental Europe is certainly not much better and even worse on some of these issues. Seems like a West-wide decline.

I agree with a lot of this.

From a personal point of view, what would be the point of moving to a different country when the only place I really want to move to is the 1990's !

 

[alex397]

This thread has reminded me of a friend who regularly travels to Sweden to see his family. People tend to think of Sweden as a safe country with good quality of life, equality and low crime (usually when talking about Scandinavia/Nordic countries as a whole). But from what he said, a couple of years ago when I spoke to him, there are big issues with gang violence and anti-social behaviour. I had no idea about this.
Looking online there have been various incidents with hand grenades. Yes, hand grenades! The crime getting so bad that Denmark introduced passport checks from Sweden for the first time since the 1950s.
In terms of equality, it appears to be going backwards for women as well, with huge increases of assaults on women, but staying stable for men, for example.

Of course, this causes an overreaction from some, like seeing Gothenburg described as a 'no go area', but I visited a couple of years ago and it didn't feel much different from anywhere else in Europe. There were certainly some 'characters' there though, and the airport shuttle bus I was on did get a rock thrown at it.

At least the UK doesn't have any issues with hand grenades killing people....

 

[bspahh]

This thread has reminded me of a friend who regularly travels to Sweden to see his family. People tend to think of Sweden as a safe country with good quality of life, equality and low crime (usually when talking about Scandinavia/Nordic countries as a whole). But from what he said, a couple of years ago when I spoke to him, there are big issues with gang violence and anti-social behaviour. I had no idea about this.
Looking online there have been various incidents with hand grenades. Yes, hand grenades! The crime getting so bad that Denmark introduced passport checks from Sweden for the first time since the 1950s.
In terms of equality, it appears to be going backwards for women as well, with huge increases of assaults on women, but staying stable for men, for example.

Of course, this causes an overreaction from some, like seeing Gothenburg described as a 'no go area', but I visited a couple of years ago and it didn't feel much different from anywhere else in Europe. There were certainly some 'characters' there though, and the airport shuttle bus I was on did get a rock thrown at it.

At least the UK doesn't have any issues with hand grenades killing people....

The UK did have a problem with terrorism from the 1970s to 1990s.

Wikipedia has a table with the intentional homicide rate for different 230 countries. The UK is at position 175 with 1.2 homicides, per year per 100,000 people. Sweden is at position 184 with 1.08, so at the moment, I don't think either has a particular problem.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cloud Strife]

4 years ago, I moved to live with my partner in Gdynia on the north coast of Poland. I feel like I have moved to a young growing city in a growing and prosperous country. Yes there are problems, (particularly politics at a national level) but nothing like the problems I had with life in the UK.

I live just outside Wrocław, and one major issue is that we're seeing massive amounts of centralisation in Poland. The latest proposal is that school headteachers will be picked by the regional educational boards, which all but guarantees a huge amount of social conflict between local governments and those actually running schools.

Poland has positives, but right now, the storm clouds are looming. I'd fully expect some severe austerity and considerable tax hikes in the 2024-2027 period.

 

[TheSeeker]

From a personal point of view, what would be the point of moving to a different country when the only place I really want to move to is the 1990's !

To paraphrase the famous saying "If you can remember the nineties you weren't there man!"

 

[yorksrob]

To paraphrase the famous saying "If you can remember the nineties you weren't there man!"

Some parts of it are a bit blurry to be fair

 

[notlob.divad]

@notlob.divad How are you getting along with the Polish language?

It is improving but still a long way to go. I can get by day-to-day, but anything unexpected that comes up usually has me a bit flustered. The biggest problem is that everyone here has such good English that they want to use and practice, I find it very hard to stay in Polish when things start going wrong.

I live just outside Wrocław, and one major issue is that we're seeing massive amounts of centralisation in Poland. The latest proposal is that school headteachers will be picked by the regional educational boards, which all but guarantees a huge amount of social conflict between local governments and those actually running schools.

Poland has positives, but right now, the storm clouds are looming. I'd fully expect some severe austerity and considerable tax hikes in the 2024-2027 period.

Yes I read about this too, it seems having taken over the courts, and the media, my fear of further indoctrination og children is on the horizon. Personally I think there is going to eventually be a big backlash against the current ruling party, and a coalesing of the opposition. You are probably right, after riding their quick decision making through the first wave of the pandemic, the 2nd hit hard and the 3rd looks like it will be just as bad. Their economic credentials are blown to pieces and they can no longer afford their 'election sausages' that keep getting promised. I expect some serious financial restraint and the Złoty may come under significant pressure on international markets. However most of the rest of the world is going to be in the same situation, so it will be 'interesting' times for us all.

 

[Simon11]

Every country has their own issues and it is only once you spend a few years living there do you realise how good we have it in the UK (providing you can live in a decent place of course!). I spent over two years living/ working in America and my list of what I hated over there grew monthly! Just a few things I found really annoying:

• Size of the country- Having to fly everywhere for work and six hours drive to see the boss are not fun after the first few months!
• Time zones- As the country has four time zones, you end up working from 8am till 6/7pm to speak with everyone.
• Money- The financial technology in US is decades old and if businesses need to pay you, they pay you via cheque! They hardly do contactless, don't have mobile card payment machines and still sign everything when paying via card.
• Food- Everything is filled with sugar and salt. Their milk lasts twice as long as milk in the UK..... So hard to keep fit there
• Fitness- The concept of walking to town to get food, cash or do a few tasks doesn't exist.
• Annual leave- I was so glad that I kept my UK holidays, otherwise you would get two weeks plus bank holidays.
• Workers protection- Most employees were on two weeks notice- meant that people very quickly leave jobs for new ones but also means people get no protection (which is scary when you have a large mortgage). Does also result in Americans working silly hours to look good for their boss!
• Health care- I still don't understand their system, insurance and prepaid health care. So expensive if you need anything and that is after paying a monthly fee! If you get cancer over there, be prepared to have the worry of dealing with cancer and dealing with massive healthcare bills.... Heck, even the ambulance service charges you to transport you to hospital!
• TV Adverts- Their channels have so much adverts, it makes their TV pointless. They even have adverts for medicine- in the UK you expect the DR to prescribe you the right medication, not to learn about it from a TV!
• Tax system- such a mess and a huge pain to submit your tax returns every year
• Quality of driving- Their driving examination consist of a short written paper and a 10 minute drive around the block, where as long as you stop for the STOP sign, you are good to go! It is a right over there to drive and thus people never fail.
• Guns- Where to start.....

Hopefully that is enough points! haha.

The whole country is focused on business and the country simply doesn't really care about the 'workers'. Worst thing is that people in living don't realise how bad they have it!

 

[yorksrob]

• Annual leave- I was so glad that I kept my UK holidays, otherwise you would get two weeks plus bank holidays

This problem is not exclusive to the USA - I have a family member who's spent a long time living in Latin America and it is the same there.

 

[TheSeeker]

Workers protection- Most employees were on two weeks notice- meant that people very quickly leave jobs for new ones but also means people get no protection (which is scary when you have a large mortgage). Does also result in Americans working silly hours to look good for their boss!

I was made redundant at the same time as a colleague in New Jersey. She asked what sort of redundancy terms I got. "One months pay for every year I've been with the company" (eighteen years). She was a amazed. "I get one weeks pay for every year".

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

In Germany six weeks is the norm, although some get less. Plus lots of public holidays. Only minus is: if a public holiday falls on a Saturday or Sunday it is not moved to a weekday, as happens in the UK.

 

[notlob.divad]

Every country has their own issues and it is only once you spend a few years living there do you realise how good we have it in the UK (providing you can live in a decent place of course!). I spent over two years living/ working in America and my list of what I hated over there grew monthly! Just a few things I found really annoying:

• Size of the country- Having to fly everywhere for work and six hours drive to see the boss are not fun after the first few months!
• Time zones- As the country has four time zones, you end up working from 8am till 6/7pm to speak with everyone.
• Money- The financial technology in US is decades old and if businesses need to pay you, they pay you via cheque! They hardly do contactless, don't have mobile card payment machines and still sign everything when paying via card.
• Food- Everything is filled with sugar and salt. Their milk lasts twice as long as milk in the UK..... So hard to keep fit there
• Fitness- The concept of walking to town to get food, cash or do a few tasks doesn't exist.
• Annual leave- I was so glad that I kept my UK holidays, otherwise you would get two weeks plus bank holidays.
• Workers protection- Most employees were on two weeks notice- meant that people very quickly leave jobs for new ones but also means people get no protection (which is scary when you have a large mortgage). Does also result in Americans working silly hours to look good for their boss!
• Health care- I still don't understand their system, insurance and prepaid health care. So expensive if you need anything and that is after paying a monthly fee! If you get cancer over there, be prepared to have the worry of dealing with cancer and dealing with massive healthcare bills.... Heck, even the ambulance service charges you to transport you to hospital!
• TV Adverts- Their channels have so much adverts, it makes their TV pointless. They even have adverts for medicine- in the UK you expect the DR to prescribe you the right medication, not to learn about it from a TV!
• Tax system- such a mess and a huge pain to submit your tax returns every year
• Quality of driving- Their driving examination consist of a short written paper and a 10 minute drive around the block, where as long as you stop for the STOP sign, you are good to go! It is a right over there to drive and thus people never fail.
• Guns- Where to start.....

Hopefully that is enough points! haha.

The whole country is focused on business and the country simply doesn't really care about the 'workers'. Worst thing is that people in living don't realise how bad they have it!

I agree with everything you say re the USA. I have been there a few times for work, but it isn't a country I could ever see myself living in. Canada maybe, but not the states

I would like to add apoint to your list, (and this goes for Canada too) - display and menu advertised pricing. Thank goodness for the standardised European advertised price must contain VAT.

Finally on the card payment, I went into a US supermarket, got to the till and saw their card machine was contactless. Completly freeked out the cashier when I paid for my goods, you should have seen her face. Anyhow I find Germany similar in some respects - so many places that will only accept cash, taxis etc. It is the only EU country where I feel I have to carry physical money on me, even in a big city.

 

[DustyBin]

There is a bit of a particularlism with the English middle class and their conviction that the UK is uniquely terrible and everywhere else is better. Orwell once articulated this in quite a thorough way, so it's not a new phenomenon.

Not that the UK is perfect in any sense. Personally, I'm increasingly getting a feeling of despair with the fact we increasingly cannot say anything or do anything (since Coronavirus) without risk of the bill popping round to express their disappointment in you; with your employer somehow finding out about it also. Anarchy, statue-smashing, an obsession with race, gender and other immutable characteristics. The worst thing is, a fair chunk of the country seems to onboard with at least some of this.

The thing is though, it's not just a UK thing. Continental Europe is certainly not much better and even worse on some of these issues. Seems like a West-wide decline. That leaves not many industrialised nations to go to. Japan & South Korea would appeal in some ways but wouldn't be necessarily easy to be allowed in. Also, it's not straightforward adapting to non-Western cultures. I've lived in Hong Kong, so I know a bit about it.

It might have to be a move to a much poorer country: build a school, teach English, that sort of thing.

I agree with all of this. I could write paragraphs about my thoughts on the matter but ultimately I can't get away from a suspicion that the current state of affairs suits the ruling classes. The general population have been let down by successive governments but most are too busy navel-gazing and fighting among themselves to see it. Politics in the UK is in the gutter and it can afford to be as people are either totally apathetic or harbour extreme, minority views.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Trouble (? ) is, the US is very rich but wealth is very unevenly distributed. A few million people have more money than they could ever spend, but more than half struggle from one paycheck to the next. Not sure I should want to live there even if I were very rich.

 

[Simon11]

I agree with everything you say re the USA. I have been there a few times for work, but it isn't a country I could ever see myself living in. Canada maybe, but not the states

I would like to add apoint to your list, (and this goes for Canada too) - display and menu advertised pricing. Thank goodness for the standardised European advertised price must contain VAT.

Can't I believe I didn't remember that issue with not displaying the final price! You walk into a dollar shop with a 1 dollar bill and get asked to pay $1.05... what was the point!

 

[notlob.divad]

Trouble (? ) is, the US is very rich but wealth is very unevenly distributed. A few million people have more money than they could ever spend, but more than half struggle from one paycheck to the next. Not sure I should want to live there even if I were very rich.

This is very true. Sadly I see the UK heading in the same direction.

 

[TravelDream]

Interesting to read so many on here have lived abroad.
Depending on how you count 'living' in a place, I've lived in several countries both in Europe and Asia and have spent much more of my (still short!) adult working life abroad than in the UK.

I think, very simply, there are pluses and minuses to everywhere. What some see as a positive, others might be neutral on or see as a negative. From people I know, I think too many people mistake a holiday to actually living and working somewhere and have too much of a grass is always greener outlook on the world.
That's not just restricted to from the UK either. Everyone I know (three families and two singles) who has moved to Australia has moved back to the UK and all of them now say they regret it.


I am not sure if I'd like to live permanently anywhere I've lived before. The longest I have done in a place is seven and a bit years in Hong Kong (with quite a few multi-month breaks which, luckily, didn't apply for visa purposes) where I got PR. It's a simply amazing place and I had a great lifestyle, though it really is what it is.

Of all the countries I have lived in, the one country I really couldn't imagine living in is Russia where I have spent many months (in total) working. The country is truly fascinating in many regards. Incredibly beautiful architecture, some of the most open and friendliest people I have ever met and just plain interesting. However, it's also an incredibly dysfunctional country. It's the only country I have been to where I have seen corruption so open and apparent among government officials. Income inequality is high, the welfare state and state healthcare systems are truly woeful and there's a bit of a cost of living crisis (really, it's nothing comparable to the UK's one). The weather and dark nights (and dark days at peak winter) can be quite depressing as well.
I really can't wait to get back there for a holiday, but certainly not to live unless I earned real big bucks.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Living, definition: for more than two years, five years, 'permanently'? Language is the thing, I think, and some countries would be particularly interesting/challenging for someone from the UK: Japan, with very few foreigners, where one is immediately identified by ones appearance or even height.

@TravelDream You mention people moving back from Australia, why did they regret it? Moving back and forth 2-3 times is not so unusual. Down under might be 'easy' because of the language, but I might be unhappy about not being to get back the UK easily and cheaply (even if I did not need or want to go/visit back).

 

[DustyBin]

Living, definition: for more than two years, five years, 'permanently'? Language is the thing, I think, and some countries would be particularly interesting/challenging for someone from the UK: Japan, with very few foreigners, where one is immediately identified by ones appearance or even height.

@TravelDream You mention people moving back from Australia, why did they regret it? Moving back and forth 2-3 times is not so unusual. Down under might be 'easy' because of the language, but I might be unhappy about not being to get back the UK easily and cheaply (even if I did not need or want to go/visit back).

The two people (and their families) I know who moved to Australia found the cost of living very high and that was ultimately what drove them back to the UK. They’re both professionally qualified people and moved there on decent enough salaries but paying for things we don’t have to (at ‘point of use’ anyway) meant they didn’t have the kind of disposable income they were used to and the novelty of living there wore off after a couple of years. I’ve not visited Australia but I’d very much like to, and it seems like an ‘easy’ place to relocate to as you say, but the old “if it seems too good” adage appears to ring true in this case, for many people at least.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I've always wanted to live somewhere else to see what it was like but the opportunity never arose. I wish I'd done a European language with my degree and gone abroad for a year but alas that ship has sailed.

Interesting to hear views on America, I don't know anyone who has worked there who has said they would like to make it permanent (I know several who've been for 2-4 years) but New Zealand always seems to come out as a big winner and people regret coming back.

 

[Simon11]

I've always wanted to live somewhere else to see what it was like but the opportunity never arose. I wish I'd done a European language with my degree and gone abroad for a year but alas that ship has sailed.

Interesting to hear views on America, I don't know anyone who has worked there who has said they would like to make it permanent (I know several who've been for 2-4 years) but New Zealand always seems to come out as a big winner and people regret coming back.

New zealand would be an amazing place to love but it is so cut off from the rest of the world. If you wish to travel to another country that isnt Australia, you have a very long trip!

 

[JonasB]

Looking online there have been various incidents with hand grenades. Yes, hand grenades! The crime getting so bad that Denmark introduced passport checks from Sweden for the first time since the 1950s.

A small comment about the hand grenades, criminals have used them due to a loophole in the laws. Hand grenades are not classed as weapons but as "explosive devices", similar to dynamite, and sentences have been lower than they have been for gun violence. The police have mentioned this to the politicians several times but as far as I know they are still not classed as weapons. But the maximum sentence for "inproper handling of explosive material" has been increased, which has reduced the problem.

In terms of equality, it appears to be going backwards for women as well, with huge increases of assaults on women, but staying stable for men, for example.

Of course, this causes an overreaction from some, like seeing Gothenburg described as a 'no go area', but I visited a couple of years ago and it didn't feel much different from anywhere else in Europe. There were certainly some 'characters' there though, and the airport shuttle bus I was on did get a rock thrown at it.

Yes, people are overreacting. And I'm getting tired of way some people use Sweden as an example to prove their point (not you, but others). Whether it is the far right portraying Sweden as run over by muslims or the left portraying Sweden as some kind of socialist utopia where nobody is poor or unhappy. It is neither. BBC actually took the time to look a bit closer at the situation a few years ago, and if you have 20 minutes to spare there are worse things to watch.

 

[TravelDream]

Living, definition: for more than two years, five years, 'permanently'? Language is the thing, I think, and some countries would be particularly interesting/challenging for someone from the UK: Japan, with very few foreigners, where one is immediately identified by ones appearance or even height.

@TravelDream You mention people moving back from Australia, why did they regret it? Moving back and forth 2-3 times is not so unusual. Down under might be 'easy' because of the language, but I might be unhappy about not being to get back the UK easily and cheaply (even if I did not need or want to go/visit back).

It's something very difficult to define.

I lived in HK for over seven years and became a permanent resident (you're required to give up other citizenships to become a Chinese citizen), but in my mind it was never permanent. If I had lived there for 15 years, it wouldn't have been either. But I think it would be totally wrong to say I haven't lived there.

On language you bring up a good point. In HK, learning Cantonese is just something that foreigners don't do. I know white people who were born and had lived their entire lives there who couldn't speak a lick of the language. There are some quite prominent white businessmen/ politicians who have become Chinese citizens who don't speak Chinese either. It's such a shame really.
I spent just 10 months cumulatively in Russia, but speak far more Russian than I do Cantonese. I think the imperative to learn is a real motivator.



On Oz, I think cost of living, family/ friends and distance were the key factors. From personal experience, it's undoubtedly more expensive than the UK* and some people try to live lifestyles they can't afford (*I always laugh at the shock on Wanted Down Under when people see the grocery/ property prices - Had they done literally zero research?). It's not an easy trip to get to the UK and costs a lot of money and I think while that's totally obvious, some people don't realise how difficult it can be.
On why they want to go back, I'm not really on the real reasons behind it. Grass is always greener has to be a part of it. After the honeymoon period ends, people tend to look closely at all of the negatives of their current situation and think of the positives of their previous life in the UK. Then rinse and repeat when they get back here. I think there's also a bit of it is regret that they didn't try hard enough out there.

 

[alex397]

Yes, people are overreacting. And I'm getting tired of way some people use Sweden as an example to prove their point (not you, but others). Whether it is the far right portraying Sweden as run over by muslims or the left portraying Sweden as some kind of socialist utopia where nobody is poor or unhappy. It is neither. BBC actually took the time to look a bit closer at the situation a few years ago, and if you have 20 minutes to spare there are worse things to watch.

Some of my post is perhaps overreacting about it too, but I was surprised to find out about some of the problems in Sweden. As I say, I visited Gothenburg and felt perfectly safe.
Always important to take a balanced view on things. People tend to talk about Scandi countries as perfect societies, or as I have found out, talk about the ‘no go zones’ and the country being ‘overrun’ which is certainly from the far-right playbook.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I just read about the ten-pound poms, that was a lot of money back then. Besides it was part of the infamous White Australia policy.

 

[TheSeeker]

Only minus is: if a public holiday falls on a Saturday or Sunday it is not moved to a weekday, as happens in the UK.

Here in Belgium this choice is at the employers discretion. If a bank holiday falls on a Thursday or Tuesday we usually get Friday or Monday "the bridge day" off, moved from a bank holiday that fell on a weekend.

 

[D6130]

Here in Belgium this choice is at the employers discretion. If a bank holiday falls on a Thursday or Tuesday we usually get Friday or Monday "the bridge day" off, moved from a bank holiday that fell on a weekend.

Likewise in Italy.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

My wife and I are fortunate enough to already have a "Plan B" country - Italy, where we have a second home. However, despite its many good points, such as an agreeable climate, friendly people, wonderful food and wine, fascinating railway system, etc., Italy suffers from most of the social, economic and infrastructural malaises that also affect the UK - not to mention a stifling bureaucracy that encourages rampant corruption and mafia-style organised crime. As Iskra says, it's nice to go out for a few weeks - the longest we've spent there in one stay is ten weeks - but it's also nice to get back again to the wind and the rain and nice cosy pub with a roaring log fire.

And public transport is absolute crap as well, especially in Southern Italy.

Especially in the rural areas, except for school buses that go to our equivalent of colleges (in Italian: scuole superiori), public transport is completely non-existant. You effectively have no choice but to drive, a bit like in the American suburbs.

Like you, I also own a second home in Italy - in the Campania region not far from Naples. We live in a village on the Naples-Rome corridor.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

My wife and I are fortunate enough to already have a "Plan B" country - Italy, where we have a second home. However, despite its many good points, such as an agreeable climate, friendly people, wonderful food and wine, fascinating railway system, etc., Italy suffers from most of the social, economic and infrastructural malaises that also affect the UK - not to mention a stifling bureaucracy that encourages rampant corruption and mafia-style organised crime. As Iskra says, it's nice to go out for a few weeks - the longest we've spent there in one stay is ten weeks - but it's also nice to get back again to the wind and the rain and nice cosy pub with a roaring log fire.

Another good point - we have great healthcare too!