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Is buying a ticket with intention to only start and stop short illegal?

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infobleep

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Is buying a ticket with the intention of not travelling between the two stations named on the ticket but only two in-between, illegal?

A friend has been talking to managers and ticket sales staff at one rail company and they are saying it would be because when you go to buy the ticket, you are asking for the two stations named on the ticket and not any in-between.

For example if one bought a season ticket from Station C to Station B because that was cheaper than Station A to Station B, and Station A was on the route between C and B, would that be illegal?

This is about contract law I believe. I know the routing guide allows permitted routes but does one have to intent to start at the starting station and terminate at the end station when buying the ticket.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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A simple question without a simple answer, (though I suspect that most people on here will give you the simple answer that it is perfectly permitted unless travelling on tickets that prohibit break-of-journey, such as Advance tickets).

It seems quite clear that Season tickets enable a passenger to use them for shorter journeys that the full end-to-end journey between the named stations. Clear, but there are some, including very senior rail personnel, who continue to argue that where this allows travel that is less expensive than the published price for the actual journey taken, then it is not permitted. The argument would be that it is a fraud. Cross Country have been arguing this point recently.

It seems similarly clear that other flexible tickets which allow a break of journey may be used in part, rather than for the full journey. Those that argue that this is not permitted might turn to Case law to support their view; there are 2 judgements which migh help: London & North Western Railway Co. vs Hinchcliffe [1903] and R. vs Frere (1855) (Frere was overturned on Appeal but parts of the Decision would still be useful).

On the other hand, those tickets which are specifically intended for travel on specified journeys, times and trains (such as Advance tickets) are going to be hard to justify for shorter journeys. I am aware that many Companies might choose not to Prosecute, and I believe that a passenger who also holds a ticket for the short additional journey which they wish to avoid, should escape prosecution, but for the most part, and Advance ticket is a contract ONLY for the specified journey and would NOT be valid for a shorter journey.

In the middle, is the greyer area, where most on this forum might look to the ticket restrictions in detail, where many rail staff might agree and others would look to the ticket type and price, and where most lawyers might look to Contract Case Law. In this middle ground, there may be differing opinions, passionately held; and maybe with some justification of each point of view.

I'm unable to accept that there is a simple answer.
 

yorkie

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For example if one bought a season ticket from Station C to Station B because that was cheaper than Station A to Station B, and Station A was on the route between C and B, would that be illegal?
I would ask them this question "are you saying that a Season ticket may not be used at intermediate stations on any permitted route?"

If they confirm that is what they are saying, then refer them to this:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx

National Rail Enquiries said:
You can use your Season Ticket up to and including its expiry date for any number of journeys between the stations and/or within the zone(s) shown on it at any time of day. It may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket.

If they deny that is what they are saying, then ask them to put in writing what it is that they are saying, so that the matter can be investigated and you can correspond with Customer Services at the relevant TOC (and, if necessary, Passenger Focus and ATOC).

FCC have tried, and probably will continue to try, to prosecute Season ticket holders for using tickets at stations shown as "intermediate stations" on their own journey planner and/or the Routeing Guide, but a robust letter to the Company usually results in them backing down.

Some other TOCs have made similar threats, usually the TOC backs down but I was extremely disappointed to learn of one or two cases where passengers who had an excellent case backed down and had to pay £££s because they didn't want it to go to Court (even though I think they had an excellent case). The TOCs have so much power it's unbelievable. Power that they sometimes misuse. There's no way TOCs should be prosecuting passengers who travel in accordance with an itinerary or the Routeing Guide, and I don't think the TOCs would win (providing the passenger had good representation in Court) but sadly our ludicrous laws allow the TOCs to use their disproportionate powers to bully and frighten customers. The rail industry appears to be pretty much unique in that respect.
 

jkdd77

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My understanding is that the case law from London & North Western Railway Co. vs Hinchcliffe refers to a purchase of a ticket which did not permit BoJ, whereas modern season tickets, and most, but not all, flexible tickets, do expressly and unequivocally permit BoJ, as confirmed by ATOC and the DfT.

Rail franchises provide that tickets for rail travel are sold, and the contract for travel formed, subject to the NRCoC, and Conditions 16 and, in the case of a season ticket, 30, do clearly permit starting and finishing "short" at internemediate stations.

I am not legally qualified, but have studied contract law as part of my studies towards a professional qualification, and am firmly of the opinion that a passenger who purchases a season ticket has entered into a contract for travel which expressly permits starting and finishing "short" at intermediate stations.

This is in addition to, not instead of, the right to travel from and to the stations specified on the ticket.

However, in the absence of this specific right, this would not be permitted, since the ticket would then only permit travel from the origin station stated on the ticket to the destination station stated on the ticket.

If the conditions of an A to C ticket do expressly permit travel from B to C (as would be the case here), then this travel is permitted under the contract for travel, and the passenger has paid a correct fare for the B to C journey, regardless of whether the B to C fare is higher or lower than the A to C ticket.

Since the passenger has purchased the A to C ticket, he or she has entered into a contract for travel from A to C except insofar as the conditions of the contract give the passenger the additional right to make journeys to and from intermediate stations.

The passenger has not purchased the B to C ticket and so the conditions and pricing of the B to C ticket is of no relevance to him or her. Accordingly,
an A to C SVR ticket with restriction code 2T (which permits BoJ) could be used to travel from B to C even at a time when a B to C SVR ticket with restriction code 2R forbids travel.

A further analogy would be with a passenger who travels using a combination of tickets, meeting the conditions of NRCoC 19, in order to save money on the 'through fare'.

Case law on 'tax avoidance', such as:
Fisher’s Executors v CIR [1926] AC395
Duke of Westminster v CIR [1936] AC1
Ayrshire Pullman v CIR [1929] 14TC754

provides that a person is entitled to minimise tax paid by lawful means, and I suspect that the distinction between 'tax avoidance' and 'tax evasion' would be held to be equally applicable to the distinction between 'fare avoidance' and 'fare evasion', with the former being legitimate, and the latter being fraudulent.

"Starting short" on a ticket which does permit BoJ in order to save money is akin to putting savings into a cash ISA (subject to applicable limits) in order to avoid income tax, whilst, by contrast, "starting short" on a ticket which does not permit BoJ in order to save money is akin to putting savings into a Liechtenstein-based account and not declaring it.

Since putting money in an ISA, and "starting short" on a ticket which does permit BoJ are both permitted, it follows that the intent of the passenger in saving money is a legitimate one and not fraudulent in any way.

I don't have a link immediately available, but I dimly recall reading a news article from 1997 in which a TOC attempted to PF season ticket holders "starting short" at station B with an A to C season ticket in order to save money on the B to C season ticket, and either cancelled the PFs, or else failed with their prosecutions (although decisions of magistrates' courts do not set case law, they might be considered persuasive). More recently, there have been at least two failed prosecutions of passengers using valid NRCoC 19 splits to save money.

In short, my view is that:
1) it is permitted, given that the conditions of season tickets clearly permit BoJ, and those who suggest otherwise are most likely mistaken;
2) a passenger is relatively unlikely to run into any practical difficulties when making a BoJ at an intermediate station on a season ticket, unless the intermediate station in question is along a line of route which was not intended to be valid but which is nevertheless technically valid according to the NRCoC and the Routeing Guide;
3) if they did encounter resistance, the TOC will probably back down in the end, or else lose in court; it would be absurd for a TOC to successfully prosecute a passenger for doing something, namely, making a BoJ, which the contract for travel between the passenger and TOC expressly permits them to do.

All the above assumes that the journey is genuinely permitted under the NRCoC, and, where applicable, the Routeing Guide. If an online journey planner mistakenly showed an A to C journey as being valid via a false intermediate station B, then the situation is complicated somewhat, and a passenger who knowingly tried to take advantage of the journey planner's error in order to make a journey which is not actually permitted under the ticket conditions would likely be committing a fraud.

If a passenger intentionally misrepresented their intended journey at a ticket office in order to obtain a cheaper A to C ticket genuinely valid via B in order to make a (valid) BoJ at B, then this could well be a fraudulent misrepresentation, even if the ticket so purchased is actually valid for the journey made.
 
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OwlMan

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I and my local Rail users group have been threatened with legal action for writing to the local newspaper (who then published our letter as an article) advising local people that there was an cheaper way to travel from Nuneaton - Birmingham daily than buy the obvious season ticket. tHEY CAN SAVE 36% BY BUYING AN ALTERNATIVE
Nuneaton - Birmingham fares versus Lichfield TV - Smethwick Galton Bridge fares

Lichfield TV - Smethwick Galton Bridge tickets are valid for travel from Nuneaton to Birmingham on Cross Country


................................................NUN - BHM(Priced by Cross Country).......... LTV - SGB (Priced by London Midland)
First Class Day Single (anytime)..........................................£19.50
First Class Day Return (anytime).........................................£24.30
Standard Class Day Single (anytime)....................................£9.80........................£6.00
Standard Class Day Return (anytime)...................................£10.00....................£10.00
OffPeak Day Return (Outward after 0930. Return any train)....................................£7.20
7 Day Standard Class Season ............................................£43.50......................£27.50
7 Day First Class Season ...................................................£87.20
 

Muzer

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The rail industry appears to be pretty much unique in that respect.

Now THAT'S wrong ;)

There is a similar thing with most media industries - anything to do with what they make out to be copyright violations, even if the customer has a clear case.
 

ralphchadkirk

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TOCs to use their disproportionate powers to bully and frighten customers. The rail industry appears to be pretty much unique in that respect.

What disproportionate legal powers do TOCs have with regards to ticketing, and how are they different from the powers you, I, airlines, bus companies, hospitals or supermarkets have?

The only one I can think of is the ability to demand a name and address, as well as fare evasion being a specific rail related offence (where others would be able to use the Fraud Act to exactly the same end).
 

jkdd77

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I can see why Crosscountry are upset and making baseless claims of fraud etc- their fares are usually extortionate, (and, in the case of SVRs, relatively time-restricted), relative to flows priced by other TOCs!

I don't see that Owlman and friends are doing anything wrong in quoting such a very small number of publicly available fares ("fair dealing"), and would be sorely tempted to reply referring XC to the answer given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram (1971) :p.

Privatisation was supposed to bring competition between TOCs, after all, and if XC are deterred from implementing a huge price rise or adverse restriction code change because they know that people will switch to an alternative flow set by a different TOC, then this can only be a good thing!

Incidentially, the old 1965 railway byelaws, repealed on 7 July 2005, contained this section, taken from: http://ukrailwayfaq.wikispaces.com/Railway+Byelaws

Avoidance of fares
5. When the fare to an intermediate station exceeds the fare to a more distant station, no person shall, for the purpose of travelling to such intermediate station, take or use, or attempt to use a ticket for the more distant station with intent to avoid payment of the additional fare to such intermediate station. The liability to or infliction of any penalty incurred by the contravention of this Byelaw shall not prejudice any right of the Board to treat such ticket as forfeited and to recover the full fare for the distance actually travelled by the offender.

The current 2005 byelaws contain no such corresponding section, so it is my view that this form of ticket usage became lawful on 7 July 2005, subject always to the additional stipulation that the relevant ticket conditions must expressly permit break of journey.
 

transmanche

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What disproportionate legal powers do TOCs have with regards to ticketing, and how are they different from the powers you, I, airlines, bus companies, hospitals or supermarkets have?
If you eat some biscuits in a supermarket and then pay for them at the check-out - you won't receive a penalty charge of £20 or twice the cost of the packet of biscuits (whichever is the greater).
 

tonyreese

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Not sure why the comments above relate mainly to Season tickets - I travel often, but not often enough to buy a season ticket, between Crewkerne and Exeter. I nearly always buy a ticket to Exeter St Thomas - partly to boost numbers at a small station, partly just in case I am nearer St Thomas when I come back, and partly just because I can! The price is the same as Central or St Davids. Just occasionally, a ticket to Crediton is cheaper than to Exeter, so when this happens I always buy to Crediton - I might have free time to go there, or I might not - my intention is undecided at the point of purchase. So I don't see it as fraudulent - I am definitely going to Exeter, but I am purchasing (at a reduced price) the option of going on to Crediton
 

bb21

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If you eat some biscuits in a supermarket and then pay for them at the check-out - you won't receive a penalty charge of £20 or twice the cost of the packet of biscuits (whichever is the greater).

Can we stop making incompatible supermarket comparisons please.
 

transmanche

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What disproportionate legal powers do TOCs have with regards to ticketing, and how are they different from the powers you, I, airlines, bus companies, hospitals or supermarkets have?

If you eat some biscuits in a supermarket and then pay for them at the check-out - you won't receive a penalty charge of £20 or twice the cost of the packet of biscuits (whichever is the greater).

Can we stop making incompatible supermarket comparisons please.
Er, ralphchadkirk asked for an example of a disproportionate legal power that the railway has, which a supermarket (et al) doesn't have. I gave one. It's rather hard to that without a 'supermarket comparison'...
 

bnm

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I'm unable to accept that there is a simple answer.

From someone in the legal profession that's perfectly understandable. Difficult to justify the fees when the answer is merely 'yes' or 'no'. ;)
 

yorkie

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Further to my previous message a copy of the poster (with the name of the publishers redacted) used around Nuneaton is attached. Arriva Cross Country have written to us threatening to sue for libel & loss of trade.
Our contention is that the poster is not libelous (i.e.telling the truth) and we are entitled to give advice to the general public about rail fares.

Peter
It's ridiculous.

Passengers are entitled to feel "robbed" by CrossCountry, whose fares are higher than what passengers might reasonably expect.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with passengers travelling between Nuneaton & Birmingham purchasing a Lichfield - Smethwick Season ticket, which is valid at "intermediate stations" and in accordance with the Routeing Guide.

So I will be happy to recommend anyone who makes such a commute, to buy a Lichfield - Smethwick Season ticket.
 

bb21

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Er, ralphchadkirk asked for an example of a disproportionate legal power that the railway has, which a supermarket (et al) doesn't have. I gave one. It's rather hard to that without a 'supermarket comparison'...

Incompatible situations means your comparison of "power" is meaningless. Two completely different things. I happen to believe TOCs have disproportionate powers, but not along those lines.
 

transmanche

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Further to my previous message a copy of the poster (with the name of the publishers redacted) used around Nuneaton is attached. Arriva Cross Country have written to us threatening to sue for libel & loss of trade.
Our contention is that the poster is not libelous (i.e.telling the truth) and we are entitled to give advice to the general public about rail fares.
Ah. I thought they were suing you for the newspaper article. I can see how they're unhappy with the tone of this poster.[*]

I think there are far better ways to word that poster: ways that would get the message across without accusing anyone of robbery.

* Not that I'm suggesting that legal action is the appropriate recourse.
 

yorkie

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I think there are far better ways to word that poster: ways that would get the message across without accusing anyone of robbery.
There are two meanings of the word "robbed", one of which is to "overcharge someone" which clearly applies here.

I would expect XC to have a reasonable grasp of the English language and realise that is the intended meaning of the word, and not the other meaning!

But then I would expect XC to adhere to the NRCoC, Routeing Guide and ticket terms & conditions - I'm clearly expecting far too much! :|
 

OwlMan

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Ah. I thought they were suing you for the newspaper article. I can see how they're unhappy with the tone of this poster.
[*]

I think there are far better ways to word that poster: ways that would get the message across without accusing anyone of robbery.

* Not that I'm suggesting that legal action is the appropriate recourse.

From the Oxford English Dictionary

Definition of robbery
noun (plural robberies)

[mass noun]
  • the action of robbing a person or place:he was involved in drugs, extortion, and robbery [count noun]:an armed robbery
  • informal unashamed swindling or overcharging: ‘Twenty-five bucks! Robbery!’
We are referring to the last definition - unashamed swindling or overcharging. (Which is why it is in inverted commas)

Our next poster will be for Nuneaton - Hinckley season ticket holders - a 7 day season from Nuneaton - Hinckley costs £27.10 (there are no intermediate stations)
Bedworth - Hinckley (further from Nuneaton towards Coventry) costs £24.30. The Nuneaton fare is priced by XC the Bedworth fare by LM.
 
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transmanche

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Incompatible situations means your comparison of "power" is meaningless. Two completely different things. I happen to believe TOCs have disproportionate powers, but not along those lines.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

A counter-example would be Northern's £80 penalty. (Or TOCs that routinely offer a fixed-fee out of court settlement as an alternative to legal action.) This is directly comparable to the actions that many supermarkets take under 'civil recovery schemes'. Rather than pressing the Police/CPS for prosecution, the retailer (or rather the 'civil recovery agent') demands a pre-set, fixed sum as 'compensation' for "staff and management time and apportioned security & surveillance costs".

The Law Commission thinks they "have no basis in law" and that "the law does not generally allow fixed sum penalties.[*] Nor does it allow [retailers] to apportion the overheads incurred for security and surveillance to individual shoplifters."

In a 2012 case it was held that the retailer needs to "prove exactly how they have lost out financially" for a claim to succeed.

[*]Obviously approved Penalty Fares schemes are different, as they are authorised by law.


We are referring to the last definition - unashamed swindling or overcharging
Quite. But as I said. There are far better ways to word that poster, to get your point across... 'somewhat less contentiously'.
 
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OwlMan

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So what is charging someone £16 a week more (58%) than another ticket (for a journey from Nuneaton - Birmingham) if it is not "robbery". We also took legal advice before publishing the poster.

ps - They were responding to the paper article they have only asked us to remove the posters. (I have clarified my previous posts)
 
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transmanche

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So what is charging someone £16 a week more (58%) than another ticket (for a journey from Nuneaton - Birmingham) if it is not "robbery".
Simply removing the phrase 'You are being "robbed" by Arriva Cross Country' and replacing it with something like 'Here's how to make a big saving" would make it less contentious.

I'm not sure why you've referred to 'Arriva Cross Country' (as most people won't know or care that XC is a subsidiary of Arriva. (You haven't referred to 'Go-Via London Midland'.) I reckon that (should it come to it) it would be fairly easy for a barrister to convince a judge or jury that by linking the Arriva name with the word robbery, you were deliberately setting out to impugn them

Personally I would add something along the lines of 'Because of the bizarre way that fares are set on the privatised railway, sometime it's cheaper to buy a ticket for a longer journey!' and remove mention of any individual TOCs.

Like I said. I don't think the way for XC to resolve this is by legal action and I do agree with with your motivation to inform people of cheaper ticket options. But for some reason, you've opted for a confrontational route... which IMHO is an unnecessary risk.
 

yorkie

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I'm not sure why you've referred to 'Arriva Cross Country' (as most people won't know or care that XC is a subsidiary of Arriva. (You haven't referred to 'Go-Via London Midland'.)
The Government has referred to Arriva Cross Country.

However you are right in thatt XC don't appear to want people to know they are owned by Arriva and keep quiet about it ;)
I reckon that (should it come to it) it would be fairly easy for a barrister to convince a judge or jury that by linking the Arriva name with the word robbery, you were deliberately setting out to impugn them
I don't think they have anything to worry about.
But for some reason, you've opted for a confrontational route... which IMHO is an unnecessary risk.
Perhaps that reason is that XC are, themselves, confrontational, and make threats against passengers who travel on their trains, in accordance with an itinerary and/or the Routeing Guide and/or the ticket terms & conditions (as appropriate)?

You don't like the wording - that's fine, your choice, but XC need challenging, and it's refreshing to see some people stand up against XC!
 

transmanche

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You don't like the wording - that's fine, your choice
Whether I 'like' it or not is neither here nor there. I was just making a helpful suggestion to OwlMan about how he can more effectively continue the good work of informing people how to save money - but without being bothered by the threat of legal action.
 

Harpers Tate

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My "helpful suggestion" here would be to continue the good work but without mentioning any TOCs names or owners. The travelling public are unlikely to care and are equally unlikely to be concerned nor usefully informed by these names; the matter is simply one of stations and prices of tickets on the National Railway.

I suppose the question is:
Is your primary purpose to help people save money and, in so doing, also perhaps, reduce the revenues of the over-priced (if I may use that term) operator or is it to name and shame a TOC? If it is primarily the former (and with respect, that is the better purpose IMO) is it worthwhile risking the entire process for the latter?
 

island

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Whether I 'like' it or not is neither here nor there. I was just making a helpful suggestion to OwlMan about how he can more effectively continue the good work of informing people how to save money - but without being bothered by the threat of legal action.

I agree - the use of the term "robbed" immediately jumped out at me as liable to cause trouble.
 

OwlMan

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Thanks for all the advice.

We will probably tone down future posters toavoid further problems.

The letter that I received over the paper article contained the following gems

.....In this article you suggested to the readers that instead of buying a Nuneaton to Birmingham rail season ticket that they should purchase a Lichfield Trent Valley - Smethwick Galton Bridge ticket thereby saving themselves £16.00 per week.......... ..........I wish to advise you that the practise of a customer buying a season ticket between stations that they do not intend to travel from is not allowed and any such ticket would be invalid. A person intending to travel daily from Nuneaton- Birmingham should buy a Nuneaton - Birmingham ticket as that is their intended journey........
We consider it irresponsible to recommend tickets like this, and if a correction is not published within the next 14 days we will consider legal action for libel and loss of trade........
If you continue to give incorrect advice we will take matters further.

Having taken legal advice we wrote back saying "thank you for your letter and we have noted your comments"
 

34D

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Owlman, would you be prepared to share a scan of this letter than has been received (privately). I have a friend who is a manager in a different part of Arriva, and would quite like to show him.
 

embers25

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Has anyone called XC directly to "clarify" if they believe the Lichfield TV to Smethwick ticket is valid between Nuneaton and Brum asif they say no then thats also an ATOC + Passenger Focus matter.
 
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