Is this correct or have I been mis-sold my ticket?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Upset76, 19 Jul 2019.

  1. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I disagree on this point, unless the customer boarded an incorrect service due to it being incorrectly advertised or incorrectly advised, which if it were the case I would have expected the OP to have mentioned it by now. The railway cannot be held liable for a customer's own mistake.

    It would also be difficult to prove in most cases.

    That I agree with. If all were as stated, the customer should not have been charged the extra fare. This again brings back to the points repeatedly made on the forum before that a verbal authorisation really should be accompanied by an endorsement on the ticket at all times. It isn't satisfactory to leave a customer in a "he said", "she said" quandary.

    I disagree along the same reasons stated before.
     
  2. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    All the virgin train conductor did was circle the date on my ticket.
     
  3. lyndhurst25

    lyndhurst25 Member

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    I imagine that passengers accidentally boarding the wrong train must be a very regular occurrence on the railway. You'd have thought that the rail industry would have worked out a procedure to get the customer to their intended destination with the minimum delay, minimum fuss and without extra expense for the passenger. You'd also have thought that how to implement this procedure would be covered on day one of how to be a train guard school. Sadly it appears not.
     
  4. Bungle158

    Bungle158 Member

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    Day one, apart from standard housekeeping, and much of the rest of guard school is safety focused. The revenue and customer service aspects are dealt with of course, but the primary role of the guard is safety.

    This is not to say that a little kindness and common sense should not be employed, particularly when dealing with a fare paying passenger who shows no intention to deceive. In the far west, we had and used reasonable discretion in such matters, particularly in the case of honest error, but l can understand though not entirely condone why the XC TM reacted as he did
     
  5. londonboi198o5

    londonboi198o5 Member

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    Because unfortunately the omnis is in the passenger to ensure they had a valid ticket for your journey. You didn’t. Why didn’t you go to the ticket office when you got off the train and explain there. Don’t mean to sound rude but unfortunately that is the rules.
     
  6. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    I didn’t do that because I asked the conductor what to do and he told me! Due to my conversation with the conductor I did not know I was breaking any rules. I didn’t go to the ticket office because the conductor advised me to get off this train and get on the direct train at Wolverhampton back to Manchester. Has he advised me I needed to first go to the ticket office I would have done this! I had no reason to doubt or question his advice.
     
  7. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    I would have saved a lot of money going to the ticket office and would have absolutely done that if I hadn’t acted on the advice of the conductor or had any reason to think his advice was incorrect.
     
  8. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Because the VTWC guard gave him misleading and incorrect instructions by implying an authority to travel he had no right to give.

    Staff need to pack this in.
     
  9. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    Perhaps the OP would like to comment about why they think they got the wrong train, then? You can see that the OP's train was a few minutes late then held outside the station and routed to a different platform while the late London train arrived at the OP's platform from the opposite direction a couple of minutes after the OP's train was due. You can only imagine how the information screens and announcements would have handled that and what extra announcements were made by staff to deal with it. (Two trains in the computer now due into the same platform arriving at almost the same time from opposite directions.)
     
  10. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    Agreed. What the guard should have said was "I'm terribly sorry but on arrival at Wolverhampton you will need to go to the ticket office and purchase a new ticket from Wolverhampton to Manchester if you wish to travel via Stoke, or a new ticket back to Crewe if you wish to continue to use your Crew to Manchester ticket. If you feel that you were misinformed as to what train you should have boarded at Crewe then you should attempt to claim the cost of the new ticket back after completion of your journey".
     
  11. rg177

    rg177 Established Member

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    If the Virgin guard was so insistent on ensuring the OP could board the XC service without issue, they should have endorsed the ticket with some sort of identifying mark so if there was a problem it could be traced back to them, rather than leaving the passenger to be stung for 40 quid.

    I remember accidentally losing a rover ticket several years ago, and a Northern conductor, having scoured the train with me, gave me a piece of blank stock with their name and payroll number on and told me to just get on the train home (Leeds to Newcastle). I was astonished that the XC TM was absolutely fine with that!
     
  12. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Or even said "If you find the guard of the train up to Manchester he might let you on for free, but he doesn't have to - make sure you do it before you get on. If he doesn't you'll have to go and buy a ticket from the ticket office, I'm afraid" (and then the rest).

    But really I don't get why he didn't endorse the ticket (i.e. write on the back about the issue). I reckon the XC guard would almost certainly have accepted it if he had, even though he had no right to insist on the acceptance.

    Not to mention that the OP could have, on the way to the ticket office, have fallen foul of RPIs there. The guard should have endorsed the ticket if only for that reason.

    Verbal permission to travel, in these days of strict revenue enforcement, is serious misconduct and it needs to stop. Worst case the outcome of it is a passenger with a criminal record for no fault of their own.
     
  13. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    The Railway Byelaws define an "authorised person" as
    (i) a person acting in the course of his duties who: (a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or (b) any other person authorised by an Operator ...

    The Virgin guard is quite obvioulsy an employee of an Operator and was acting in the course of their duties. As has already been stated, if the guard has exceeded his authority that is a matter for the TOCs to sort between themselves. I cannot see how a passenger travelling in full accordance with persmission given by an authorised person is liable to pay for another ticket.

    They did, indeed, not have a vaild ticket but an authorised person gave them permission to travel without a valid ticket. Where exactlty are "the rules" that someone given permission to travel by an authorised person should go to a ticket office and explain ?
     
  14. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    Am I definitely not in a position to claim this money back? I have sent my situation to both the Virgin and XC customer relations teams. But is it a no-go given that I received verbal permission to travel and nothing in writing other than my ticket circled by the conductor? I have received a large number of responses and I guess I am not entirely clear on this point?
     
  15. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    But there is no evidence that such permission was given, and it would be an easy lie for a fare dodger.

    He clearly had the OP's ticket in his hand. Why he did not endorse it while circling the date is inexplicable and is about 99% of the root of the problem. Had he done so, the OP would almost certainly not have been charged the fare.
     
  16. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    The problem is the lack of evidence. I think realistically you are very unlikely to see a refund and will need to put that down to experience and a lesson to be more careful when boarding a train that it is the correct one.
     
  17. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    I don’t know why I would lie about such an annoying route. It added an hour to my journey.
     
  18. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I'm more thinking that someone wishing to travel for free from Wolverhampton to Manchester might buy a single to Coseley to get through the barrier then use a lie like that to get to Manchester.
     
  19. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    Also given the time I bought my ticket (10.00am) my story would have to be true for me to end up on the 10.48 train at Wolverhampton
     
  20. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    But why would I want to do that when I bought my ticket from Crewe at 10.00am to then go south and back up to Manchester
     
  21. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    You maybe wouldn't, but some would.
     
  22. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    Why would anyone do that?
     
  23. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    I bought my ticket from the train station at 10.00 am to travel 10 minutes later and surely everything can be verified with CCTV
     
  24. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    It would also be surely impossible for me to have got to Wolverhampton and caught the 10.48 train when there is physical evidence I bought a ticket at Crewe at the ticket machine at 10.00am. The only way I could have got there would have been on that train.
     
  25. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

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    To be fair the OP was presumably on Platform 6 waiting for the xx.11 to Manchester when the late-running xx.01 to Euston via Brum rolled in. Under the circumstances not an unreasonable mistake to make.
     
  26. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    You can certainly seek to claim the money back*. What is less clear is how succesful such a claim would be.

    For future reference I would, in similar circumstances, advise asking the guard on the first train to endorse the ticket. If they will not do so, make a note of their name. If a guard on a subsequent train refuses to accept that you have permission to travel (endorsed ticket or not) then whether you pay again is a personal choice .... I know what my choice would be but, everyone has their own view on what level of 'discussion' (if any), and with whom, they are content to undertake.

    * I am not sure if is this what you have done in your communications wth the customer relations teams ?
     
  27. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Why would a customer not do what staff have instructed them to do? (Note: this is a rhetorical question)
    There is an argument to say that you could be refunded it, as the ticket was effectively unused, due to you being forced by another company to purchase another ticket, and the train was delayed. The problem is that it is marked as being used because Virgin were prepared to let you off the mistake. To be honest it's a mess because there are two separate companies involved.
     
  28. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    Yes I have sought to claim a refund. Thank you, I have never heard of ticket endorsement before today but now know for future reference.
     
  29. Upset76

    Upset76 Member

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    Yorkie I believe when I have enquired in the past about getting a refund for an unused ticket, I was advised the administration cost would be £10 yet my ticket was £9.05. I am more upset about the £40, I am a student and I know this doesn’t seem a lot of money but to me that sort of money is needed for food.
     
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    You, of course, shouldn't have to know about it. The member of staff should have just done it and then explained to you what he had done and why.
     

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