Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[yorksrob]

Better a "third-class" bus mode of travel, that serves many settlements, than a rail service that does not even serve a town such as Newport. If you regard buses as a "third-class" mode of transport on the island, how would you describe the class of travel offered by the Island Line?

We already have buses serving lots of settlements, so what's your issue with the current set up ?

 

[yorksrob]

Two questions....
1)...You did not answer my query of askance of how you would describe the class of travel offered by the Island Line.
2)...Where on earth is your experience of the bus travel that you so graphically describe above.

In my case:

1) Better than the bus
2) Pretty much everywhere in the North.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We already have buses serving lots of settlements, so what's your issue with the current set up ?

My posting was made in response to the expressed comments made by Dougal 2345 in his posting # 418 on this thread and should be viewed in the light of it. I am pleased to see that you seem to agree with me about the number of settlements on the Isle of Wight that are served by bus.

My issue lies with "with the current paucity of settlements" served by the Island Line in comparison with the bus provision.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In my case:

1) Better than the bus
2) Pretty much everywhere in the North.

1)....We shall have to agree to differ.

2)....In some areas of "the North", such as the "Greater Manchester" area, the large bus fleet operators have put fleets of "eco-friendly" single-deck and double-deck modern buses in operation in recent years. Are you saying that there are driving skill deficiencies in the drivers of such vehicles?

 

[Chester1]

Two questions....
1)...You did not answer my query of askance of how you would describe the class of travel offered by the Island Line.
2)...Where on earth is your experience of the bus travel that you so graphically describe above.

I will admit that buses aren't as comfortable as trains but such OTT statements about bus travel do indicate there are rail enthusiasts who will never support a bus scheme over a rail scheme regardless of the costs or practicalities.

We already have buses serving lots of settlements, so what's your issue with the current set up ?

As far as I know there have been no attempts to run buses directly to and from the ferry terminal which shouldn't be difficult to setup. One of the justifications for continuing to fund the line is its ability to handle ferry passengers but buses to multiple destinations on the Island could do that better and cheaper. My objection to the current public transport setup on IoW is the absurd amount of taxpayers money required for it opperate long term. I would prefer a tram network but doubt that would be affordable

I have lived in the North virtually my whole life and have rarely experienced a bad bus journey. I would take a modern bus in Greater Manchester over a pacer if it was the only rail choice.

 

[ainsworth74]

2) Pretty much everywhere in the North.

Out of curiosity have you used Southern Vectis? As people who know me will atest I am far from a being a fan of busses but I was very impressed by the quality of service provided on the Isle of Wight.

 

[Chester1]

Would St Johns Road to Shanklin work as part of the IWSR? I know most of you are against closing the Island Line but if it were closed would that section be viable as a heritage railway? Wootton to Shanklin with the loco running around at St Johns Road would be aproximately 13 miles, which would make the IWSR one of the largest heritage railways in the UK. Have any modifications been made to the line that would make it difficult to reintroduce steam trains? Obviously the electrical equipment would need to be removed.

 

[swt_passenger]

As far as I know there have been no attempts to run buses directly to and from the ferry terminal which shouldn't be difficult to setup.

Buses did used to run out to the end of the pier years ago, but nowadays they would exceed the road pier weight limit. I did mention this earlier in this thread, someone thought a small bus could operate, but the barriers visible on street view appear to rule out even large vans, however the weight limit is 3 tons.

 

[Chris125]

Out of curiosity have you used Southern Vectis? As people who know me will atest I am far from a being a fan of busses but I was very impressed by the quality of service provided on the Isle of Wight.

It's great for a bus service, but so many use the train (especially for journeys to and from the mainland) for good reason:

- the bus takes around twice as long between Ryde and Shanklin
- it's far less convenient for luggage/prams/bikes
- single fares are ruinously expensive
- it isn't remotely as reliable as the train service especially in summer or when there are roadworks
- it can't use the pier and connect with the Catamaran service.

These are not minor issues, especially when connectivity with the mainland is so important for Sandown Bay.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not all the railway stations are well situated for the tourist trade. Sandown is a particular example of this, being some distance away from the coastal area where the hotels are situated.

 

[Stroud Valleys]

If investment is made in brand new vehicles would a 2 car parry people mover be suitable?

 

[Chris125]

Buses did used to run out to the end of the pier years ago, but nowadays they would exceed the road pier weight limit. I did mention this earlier in this thread, someone thought a small bus could operate, but the barriers visible on street view appear to rule out even large vans, however the weight limit is 3 tons.

The listed pedestrian pier is just too flimsy for anything but the lightest vehicles, Wightlink had to spend a significant sum refurbishing it a few years ago and now strictly enforce the 10mph speed limit.

Not all the railway stations are well situated for the tourist trade. Sandown is a particular example of this, being some distance away from the coastal area where the hotels are situated.

I'm always baffled by this argument - that was a valid criticism in the 1860s but the town grew and hotels were built between the station and the beach just a few minutes walk from both, some of which remain open to this day.

Plus, while the station is further from the beach than daytrippers may prefer it does make it better located for much of the local populace and the large secondary school.

 

[takno]

If investment is made in brand new vehicles would a 2 car parry people mover be suitable?

I wouldn't call a Parry People Mover suitable for any kind of transport really. They're quite a lot less comfortable than a bus and don't really hold many people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't call a Parry People Mover suitable for any kind of transport really. They're quite a lot less comfortable than a bus and don't really hold many people.

I've just been for a ride on it, and it occurred to me that if there was the money for new build stock Stadler could do something suitable based on the Swiss narrow gauge FLIRT. Low floor would be useful for the low platforms - D-stock will be quite a step up.

 

[Chris M]

For all those suggesting D stocks or DLR units, I'm pretty sure that these will not fit - as I posted on page 2 of this thread.

Values from Wikipedia:

  | Height | Length | Width  | Floor height
1938 stock DM  | 2.883 m| 15.94 m| 2.597 m| 0.6 m
D stock DM  | 3.740 m| 14.94 m| 3.740 m| 0.975 m
DLR B90/B92/B2K  | 3.51 m | 28.8  m| 2.65 m | 1.03 m

Note the DLR stock is articulated, so it its length is circa 14.4 metres for some purposes, but it's not fully flexible there. Note also the different widths and particularly floor height (43cm is a *big* step). Furthermore the profile is a lot squarer than than that of most (all?) other passenger rolling stock in the UK.
Finally, they would need work to convert them to use standard third rail (currently they use bottom-contact) and to give them driving cabs with controls suitable for normal use (the existing ones are not the most ergonomic for starters).

 

[hooverboy]

I wouldn't call a Parry People Mover suitable for any kind of transport really. They're quite a lot less comfortable than a bus and don't really hold many people.

I think a 2 car articulated version would probably work quite well.

ex DLR stock with a cut 'n' shut to 10ft height would be ideal.maybe vivarail can have a little side project with these...a VLR version of the 230 for stourbridge and the like.
pre-requisite would be a modular unit, ie add middle trailer as required for line, good acceleration,and minimum rated speed of 60mph.

2*2(or 2*1) seating with a fold-up bay for cycles and wheelchairs.

for post above, no way dlr stock is 28m long!..15-18 m is the right ballpark.,and perfectly ok for IOW,they handle very tight curves on DLR as well so exit from ryde tunnel not a problem.just the height. at 11' 6" needs to be 6-9" lower same as 313.

ex dlr also has a weight advantage, about 15 tonnes per car. v 30 for a 313(or 25 for present 483)

 

[Chester1]

It's great for a bus service, but so many use the train (especially for journeys to and from the mainland) for good reason:

- the bus takes around twice as long between Ryde and Shanklin
- it's far less convenient for luggage/prams/bikes
- single fares are ruinously expensive
- it isn't remotely as reliable as the train service especially in summer or when there are roadworks
- it can't use the pier and connect with the Catamaran service.

These are not minor issues, especially when connectivity with the mainland is so important for Sandown Bay.

The listed pedestrian pier is just too flimsy for anything but the lightest vehicles, Wightlink had to spend a significant sum refurbishing it a few years ago and now strictly enforce the 10mph speed limit.

Apart from the pier all of the issues you have mentioned could be resolved through a good busway and bus priority system combined with a suitable bus layout and a new ticketing system. A proper replacement for the line would need to be tailored for the purpose with most of the bottom deck used for luggage and prams and services to Shanklin, Ventnor, Newport, Yarmouth, East and West Cowes running on a very limited stoping pattern. Local residents could register for a pass allowing reduced fares both on and off peak allowing income to be generated from tourists without punishing local people for living in a tourist hotspot. The pier weight limit is unfortunate but does less than half a mile of track justify keeping another 8 miles open? The pier ferry link and connection with the IWSR could be preserved by running just Pier to St Johns Road on a single track with one 1930s unit in use each day and the rest of the line leased / gifted to IWSR. Express bus services could run from the Esplanade with bus tickets allowing free use of the train to reach Wightlink

 

[Chris M]

ex DLR stock with a cut 'n' shut to 10ft height would be ideal.

No it wouldn't. Even ignoring concerns about structural integrity, the floors are ~40 cm too high, the cars are too long, the electrification system of the trains or railway would need to be completely redoing as they are physically incompatible (no idea about electrically), they would need conversion to manual operation or the railway converting to automatic operation. It also ignores the fact that the trains are being withdrawn because they are life expired already. Oh, and they are full of all the electrical systems that the Island Line apparently don't want.

It would be far cheaper in the long run (and quite possibly in the short term as well) to buy new stock that will last 50+ years than waste your money on already life-expired trains that don't fit on the railway you want to run them on.

 

[hooverboy]

No it wouldn't. Even ignoring concerns about structural integrity, the floors are ~40 cm too high, the cars are too long, the electrification system of the trains or railway would need to be completely redoing as they are physically incompatible (no idea about electrically), they would need conversion to manual operation or the railway converting to automatic operation. It also ignores the fact that the trains are being withdrawn because they are life expired already. Oh, and they are full of all the electrical systems that the Island Line apparently don't want.

It would be far cheaper in the long run (and quite possibly in the short term as well) to buy new stock that will last 50+ years than waste your money on already life-expired trains that don't fit on the railway you want to run them on.

at 8.5 miles long, do you really think it justifies 1 driver and 1 guard per train?.
operating costs on the line are frankly abysmal
as said before on previous posts, even if you get 313's for £1 each the wheels will need shaving down to get to platform height.

best option you could get would be paris or toulouse metro(fully automated), but RMT will throw their toys out of the pram

check this out.it's DLR on steroids.and it works.

 

[StephenHunter]

Didn't BR cite the existence of an effective local bus service when it closed lines under Beeching... then that service got run down itself? The Epping-Ongar bus service is far inferior to what we'd have had if that line stayed fully open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A thought on the heritage angle - could the Ffestiniog build something brand new but a bit olde-worlde at Boston Lodge Works? There's no need for modern crashworthiness when the only thing one can hit is the other one.

 

[Chris M]

at 8.5 miles long, do you really think it justifies 1 driver and 1 guard per train?.
operating costs on the line are frankly abysmal
as said before on previous posts, even if you get 313's for £1 each the wheels will need shaving down to get to platform height.

best option you could get would be paris or toulouse metro(fully automated), but RMT will throw their toys out of the pram

check this out.it's DLR on steroids.and it works.

My comments are about the unsuitability of using existing DLR stock, not about the unsuitability of that style of operation. Indeed, a fully walk-through train normally operated automatically but with a flexible member of staff on board to do door duties, ticket sales/revenue protection, and generally deal with passengers who can operate the train from the front when needs be* does seem like a good fit for the line. On the DLR there are sometimes multiple members of staff on a train doing revenue protection blitzes, or available at particularly busy times.
*On the DLR this is when there are failures, the first train of the day (after an accident a few years ago when a train hit maintenance left on the after overnight works), when there are workers trackside and in times of high wind when there is a risk of debris.

 

[Chris M]

A thought on the heritage angle - could the Ffestiniog build something brand new but a bit olde-worlde at Boston Lodge Works? There's no need for modern crashworthiness when the only thing one can hit is the other one.

If there are level crossings then they need to be crashworthy enough to withstand an impact with a modern road vehicle. Similarly they need to survive impacts with trees, crane booms, any on-track plant, bridge masonry, etc.

 

[Chester1]

Didn't BR cite the existence of an effective local bus service when it closed lines under Beeching... then that service got run down itself? The Epping-Ongar bus service is far inferior to what we'd have had if that line stayed fully open.

That was over 50 years ago and doesn't mean any modern railway closure is wrong. Busitution failed in rural areas but can work in urban areas. The Isle of Wight will always need a decent bus service because of its population density and huge day tripper demand. Busitution is much more likely to work if money is spent on busways and priority systems because a) they provide a faster and more reliable service, b) they are low maintenance and c) if the government has invested a large amount of money on a piece of infrastructure then they have a political incentive to make sure its a success.

I haven't used the Gosport system, what is the local opinion of it? I like the Leigh busway and after an intial low uptake it then needed an extra service to meet demand. I would have prefered it to have been a Metrolink line but the finances did not stack up and there is not a suitable route to connect it to the rest of the system.

 

[Chris125]

Apart from the pier all of the issues you have mentioned could be resolved through a good busway and bus priority system combined with a suitable bus layout and a new ticketing system.

The pier is a pretty fundamental issue, as is the cost - a significantly less useful service that would surely cost far more than retaining Island Line really doesn't make any sense and that's why the idea has never been taken seriously.

The pier weight limit is unfortunate but does less than half a mile of track justify keeping another 8 miles open?

In a word, yes - access to the mainland is so important to the local economy and Sandown Bay's in particular, substantially downgrading it will only hurt it's already fragile economy and do nothing to promote regeneration.

 

[JohnRegular]

I haven't used the Gosport system, what is the local opinion of it? I like the Leigh busway and after an intial low uptake it then needed an extra service to meet demand. I would have prefered it to have been a Metrolink line but the finances did not stack up and there is not a suitable route to connect it to the rest of the system.

I don't have an especially large sample size, but the people I know from Gosport are rather disappointed they didn't end up with a light rail system. The bus service is quite good I believe, but I don't think it has taken especially many people out of their cars, or at least not nearly as many as light rail would have. Gosport is now the largest settlement in the UK with no rail service, and if you've ever tried to drive in or out at a peak time, it really shows; I'd say there's still a strong case for reinstating a rail service, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

I don't think this is a useful comparison to the Island line though; Gosport is of course much more densely populated, and the railway had been gone for quite some time before the busway was built.

 

[hooverboy]

My comments are about the unsuitability of using existing DLR stock, not about the unsuitability of that style of operation. Indeed, a fully walk-through train normally operated automatically but with a flexible member of staff on board to do door duties, ticket sales/revenue protection, and generally deal with passengers who can operate the train from the front when needs be* does seem like a good fit for the line. On the DLR there are sometimes multiple members of staff on a train doing revenue protection blitzes, or available at particularly busy times.
*On the DLR this is when there are failures, the first train of the day (after an accident a few years ago when a train hit maintenance left on the after overnight works), when there are workers trackside and in times of high wind when there is a risk of debris.

my point being that systems such as this are FULLY automatic.
you get the occasional random ticket inspector.that's it.

lets take the example of video posted. about double the length of island line. no driver,or guard.I have personal experience of using that line on a daily basis and it's generally very good...and at €1.30 per trip a hell of a lot cheaper than a typical end to en town bus journey.

 

[DerekC]

I am absolutely not a rail to road conversion fanatic or part of the busway brigade, but the more you think about the special aspects of the IoW problem, the more attractive a Gosport-style busway looks. The capital cost will be comparable to the railway refurbishment and you will get a system which can be integrated much better with the bus network across the island. The pier is the big issue - but why can't the railway pier be converted to bus use? The only real difficulty I can see is that turning them round at the end would involve demolishing the station buildings.

 

[Chris125]

The pier is the big issue - but why can't the railway pier be converted to bus use? The only real difficulty I can see is that turning them round at the end would involve demolishing the station buildings.

Even if it could take the weight of a two lane roadway and it's exposure to the weather didn't limit the use of double deckers, at what cost?

A busway is a solution looking for a problem - the cost of conversion would surely far exceed that of renewing the railway, yet produce a less attractive service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW the railway pier looks in OKish condition (maybe another 10-20 years in it?) though Pier Head station itself is falling to bits, as is the tram pier.