Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[xc170]

Exactly, we're talking about 8 miles of single track, Not the ECML, spend the money now and you're sorted for another 30 years...

 

[Chris M]

Doesn't the tunnel have reduced clearance half way?

Yes. And car body length is at least as much an issue as height due to a tight bend in the middle - the portals are not the limiting factor.

 

[K.o.R]

Howsoever, if you look at the areas covered by the Island Line, against the whole settlement areas of the Isle of Wight that are served by bus services, you must agree that Southern Vectis do serve a much more widespread area.

Oh absolutely. The kicker being that most of those areas used to have a rail connection.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Exactly, we're talking about 8 miles of single track, Not the ECML, spend the money now and you're sorted for another 30 years...

I am afraid that "spare change" projects do not feature very high in the railway financial planning these days.

 

[Chris125]

I still wonder about boring out the the two tunnel ends into one bore and then slewing the track into the middle of the tunnel (as can be seen from a video posted earlier most of the tunnel is a single bore)?

I guess you could replace the arches at either end with a flat roof covering both tracks but it would be very costly and the tunnel is not the only constraint on clearances - at the very least you'd have to do something about the bridges carrying Rink Road, Park Road, St John's Road and Smallbrook Lane. The bill just keeps getting bigger, as does the disruption.

I've previously posted a diagram which shows how various classes compare against structures in the Ryde area.

With the amount of tax payer money the DFT/NR throw away each year and how many billions is going to be spent on HS2, I can't see how anyone can justify not spending a few quid on sorting Ryde tunne out and strengthening Ryde pier and bring over some 319's(Or whatever other 3rd rail stock is available)...

If it was just the pier and tunnel that might be worthwhile, but the rest of the line was never built to allow such trains.

As mentioned above overbridges are as much a constraint on clearances as the tunnel, extra weight would have implications for the rest of the infrastructure including the power supply, and I see no easy way for 20m long vehicles (far longer than anything used on the Island before) to call at Esplanade. The depot is also of limited length in a very constrained site.

 

[hooverboy]

I guess you could replace the arches at either end with a flat roof covering both tracks but it would be very costly and the tunnel is not the only constraint on clearances - at the very least you'd have to do something about the bridges carrying Rink Road, Park Road, St John's Road and Smallbrook Lane. The bill just keeps getting bigger, as does the disruption.

I've previously posted a diagram which shows how various classes compare against structures in the Ryde area.



If it was just the pier and tunnel that might be worthwhile, but the rest of the line was never built to allow such trains.

As mentioned above overbridges are as much a constraint on clearances as the tunnel, extra weight would have implications for the rest of the infrastructure including the power supply, and I see no easy way for 20m long vehicles (far longer than anything used on the Island before) to call at Esplanade. The depot is also of limited length in a very constrained site.

cut+shut ex DLR stock does sound like quite a good alternative then!
DLR has insanely sharp bends, the stock is articulated in the middle, so you just need to take a hacksaw to the roof and shave about a foot off it!,plus change shoegear.

given that the DLR stock is being replaced right now..what sort of auction price per unit for a used one?

 

[Mikey C]

As TfL can't afford the extra 1995 and 1996 units they had planned to buy for the Northern and Jubilee lines, perhaps the IoW can place an order for new trains with Alstom and TfL can then piggy back on that order

 

[Dougal2345]

given that the DLR stock is being replaced right now..what sort of auction price per unit for a used one?

Good question - one of those carriages would make a nice sunhouse for the back garden

But there's an earlier post in this thread that says that their use on the Island would be difficult for all manner of reasons, not just roof height...

 

[Chris M]

cut+shut ex DLR stock does sound like quite a good alternative then!
DLR has insanely sharp bends, the stock is articulated in the middle, so you just need to take a hacksaw to the roof and shave about a foot off it!,plus change shoegear.

The DLR does have very sharp bends, but it also has a generous loading gauge. The "foot off the roof" would be more like two at the sides as they are very square units unlike the very curved ones the island needs, it would also compromise (possibly completely) the structural integrity of the vehicle. In addition to this, there is significant end-throw so you would likely need to shorten the ends of the vehicles as well, further reducing the crashworthiness. The trains are about 50mm wider as well, which might cause you some problems too, particularly as the widest point is likely to be higher than the widest point of a 38-stock.
While the units are articulated, each part is around 14 metres (1938 stock is 15.94m) and the articulation doesn't bend anywhere near as much as the inter-car connections.
Then you would need to either lower the floor by about 400-450 mm (very expensive if not impossible) or raise all the platforms by the same amount (expensive, and goodness knows whether it would cause any other difficulties).
Also, you either need to equip them all with cabs for manual driving (not cheap*) or convert the whole Island Line to ATO (very expensive) and upgrade the control room/build a new one (very expensive).

I strongly suspect that it would be cheaper to buy new bespoke stock to fit the line than to convert the DLR units. When you take into consideration that the DLR units are being replaced because they are life expired and increasingly unreliable the economics just doesn't come close to adding up.

*Yes, the first DLR stock was converted in this manner, but they were different, simpler trains that were less than 10 years old when converted (they were sold because they weren't sufficiently fire proofed to be used in tunnels and lacked end doors. The current stock will be between about 22 and 34 years old when withdrawn based on the current schedule. I believe the design life was in the 20-30 year range).

 

[XDM]

I visited Ryde a few years ago & inspected the public park above the troublesome tunnel. I haven't google earthed it though.
Why not open out the tunnel as there is nothing significant above?
But I remember two minor roads. They could be left as arched bridges if possible, or rebuilt. That done the line could be used by any stock.

 

[K.o.R]

I think there are a couple of places that might object to this plan...

Although it is noticeable that the line follows where the buildings more or less are not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most probably was built cut and cover.

 

[paul1609]

Theres a noticeable hump where the esplanade passes over the rail tunnel. I think if you tried to widen it out you'd probably take the roof off. The flooding is as I recall happens when sea levels are high so Id guess you'd have major problems pumping it out unless you drained the solent....

 

[Chris125]

Why not open out the tunnel as there is nothing significant above?
But I remember two minor roads. They could be left as arched bridges if possible, or rebuilt. That done the line could be used by any stock.

The central section with nothing significant above is less of an issue - it's double track, so the railway can be singled and slewed towards the centre of the arched tunnel without much difficulty.

The single track sections at either end aren't so easily mitigated, and with roads above would be much more costly and disruptive to alter - and that still wouldn't allow 'any stock' to be used.

Theres a noticeable hump where the esplanade passes over the rail tunnel. I think if you tried to widen it out you'd probably take the roof off. The flooding is as I recall happens when sea levels are high so Id guess you'd have major problems pumping it out unless you drained the solent....

There is water ingress at high tides but there are pumps to deal with this - the times it floods to the roof are when Monktonmead Brook (which the line follows from Smallbrook into Ryde) bursts it's banks, flowing along the trackbed and down into the tunnel.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think if you tried to widen it out you'd probably take the roof off. The flooding is as I recall happens when sea levels are high so Id guess you'd have major problems pumping it out unless you drained the solent....

Let's be honest though who really needs to use the solent anyway? The odd ferry? The Royal Navy occasionally? Perhaps a cruise liner from time to time with the infrequent container ship? Certainly nothing significant in comparison to the massive importance that ensuring that the Island Line survives to perform it's utterly vital role in the Isle of Wight's transport mix...

 

[Stroud Valleys]

When is the next significant date about the future of the island line now that the consultation has closed?

I'm no engineer but surely if the island line infrastructure use to be able to take steam trains, the infrastructure could be reverted back to allow larger trains. Even if there are flooding problems, does anyone know how often these occurred and whether modern day techniques could help. Network rail are always banging on about flood works inside tunnels in the uk.

Also wondering - steam trains use to run to ryde pier. How did the steam engines turn round and what was the track layout for the station?

 

[adamello]

View attachment 41907

I think there are a couple of places that might object to this plan...

Although it is noticeable that the line follows where the buildings more or less are not.

if you look on the map view, not satellite view, you would be quite correct that it appears to avoid buildings

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.7307369,-1.1562028,17.39z

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

I didn’t know all this, thanks guys!

 

[Rick1984]

View attachment 41907

Can see my flat in that picture!
While the tunnel may not go directly under buildings I think people may object to there garden or car park being destroyed to open up the tunnel!

 

[DelW]

Looking at old maps on the NLS (National Library of Scotland) website, it's quite surprising (to me anyway) how much the area was built up before the railway arrived. At least one house had to be demolished at the southern portal of the tunnel, and others on Monkton St were either rebuilt or at least heavily modified. Two small buildings on the south side of East St also disappeared, possibly as a consequence of tunnel construction. "Ryde Castle" pre-dates the railway despite the tunnel passing so close, although the western half of it is later than the eastern half. Esplanade Gardens originated at around the same time, and possibly the necessary fill may have been material arising from the tunnel excavation.

On the later map, there is a small circular structure centred on the tunnel alignment just east of Eastridge Court, which I thought might be a tunnel access shaft, suggesting bored rather than cut and cover tunnelling. However there's a similar structure on the earlier map, albeit not shown in exactly the same position, so it may just be a garden feature.

1865 map here http://maps.nls.uk//view/105990355
1908 map here http://maps.nls.uk//view/105990361

 

[DelW]

Also wondering - steam trains use to run to ryde pier. How did the steam engines turn round and what was the track layout for the station?

The island steam fleet was exclusively tank engines so turning would not be required. Old maps from the site mentioned above don't show a turntable either at Pier Head or St Johns.
Map of Pier Head here: http://maps.nls.uk//view/105990343

 

[Rick1984]

Looking at old maps on the NLS (National Library of Scotland) website, it's quite surprising (to me anyway) how much the area was built up before the railway arrived. At least one house had to be demolished at the southern portal of the tunnel, and others on Monkton St were either rebuilt or at least heavily modified. Two small buildings on the south side of East St also disappeared, possibly as a consequence of tunnel construction. "Ryde Castle" pre-dates the railway despite the tunnel passing so close, although the western half of it is later than the eastern half. Esplanade Gardens originated at around the same time, and possibly the necessary fill may have been material arising from the tunnel excavation.

On the later map, there is a small circular structure centred on the tunnel alignment just east of Eastridge Court, which I thought might be a tunnel access shaft, suggesting bored rather than cut and cover tunnelling. However there's a similar structure on the earlier map, albeit not shown in exactly the same position, so it may just be a garden feature.

1865 map here http://maps.nls.uk//view/105990355
1908 map here http://maps.nls.uk//view/105990361

Very interesting thanks. You can see how some of the buildings are shaped so they're not over the tunnel.
Interesting to see that what is now a takeaway was a public house, the Strand Inn. Never knew that

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As TfL can't afford the extra 1995 and 1996 units they had planned to buy for the Northern and Jubilee lines, perhaps the IoW can place an order for new trains with Alstom and TfL can then piggy back on that order

Who did you mean when you referred to "the IOW" in your posting above?

 

[The Ham]

Who did you mean when you referred to "the IOW" in your posting above?

IOW = Isle of Wight (presumably in this case railway or council)

 

[The Ham]

Let's be honest though who really needs to use the solent anyway? The odd ferry? The Royal Navy occasionally? Perhaps a cruise liner from time to time with the infrequent container ship? Certainly nothing significant in comparison to the massive importance that ensuring that the Island Line survives to perform it's utterly vital role in the Isle of Wight's transport mix...

[SARCASM] Of course without that pesky bit of water in the way it would be possible to link through to the line at Portsmouth, which would improve matters no end. It's such a great idea surprised noone had though if it before...[/SARCASM]

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There is an argument to be made though, that if the Isle of Wight wasn't an island, it would have lost ALL it's railways under Beeching rather than just most of them.

 

[The Ham]

There is an argument to be made though, that if the Isle of Wight wasn't an island, it would have lost ALL it's railways under Beeching rather than just most of them.

It depends on where it connected onto the network, if it was an area of countryside to the south of Portsmouth (where trains would be able to turn around in an area where land was cheap) then chances are it would have retained at least some of its services. If it was like the Isle of Purbeck (Swanage) then it would have lost them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

IOW = Isle of Wight (presumably in this case railway or council)

I was just wondering whether IOW referred to the current TOC, the heritage railway or indeed the council that was referred to in the posting that I responded to.

 

[K.o.R]

Also wondering - steam trains use to run to ryde pier. How did the steam engines turn round and what was the track layout for the station?

I think the crazy thing is the pier head station used to have four platforms. You can still see the supports for the outermost track next to the fishing area, and the in-use platform is doubly wide because it is over where a track once was.

 

[urbophile]

I think the crazy thing is the pier head station used to have four platforms. You can still see the supports for the outermost track next to the fishing area, and the in-use platform is doubly wide because it is over where a track once was.

I remember visiting the island while the Newport-Cowes line was still running, as well as the Ventnor one. Two trains were happily steaming away at the end of the pier as the ferry docked; I assume this happened in connection with every sailing. I can imagine that when the island rail network was at its height, ferries ran more frequently, and/or the tourist season was in full swing, all four platforms would be needed.