Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[341o2]

Especially as I don't think there has been any brand new stock on the IoW lines within living memory. The island's railways relied on handed down mostly ex-London suburban stock at least as far back as the early 20th century.

Have the Isle of Wight railways ever received brand new stock?

 

[py_megapixel]

Have the Isle of Wight railways ever received brand new stock?

I don't know, but if they haven't, SWR would love to market that they are bringing new trains to the IoW "for the first time ever!"

 

[hooverboy]

Not only does the new book 'Ryde Rail' by Richard Long describe and publish the 80s proposal to use Class 503s, a former member of staff confirms the story that 03079 with original 12ft 2in cab was successfully squeezed through both tracks of Ryde Tunnel.

...however it could only get there on the Down (wrong) Line from St Johns, they tried but Rink Road overbridge was indeed too low on the Up Line.

As for upgrade news, a local councillor recently suggested a decision wasn't now due before Brexit and it seems that our MP isn't expecting anything for a few months yet either.

ok, so the height is not a problem for a 313,
the length and the reverse curve is.
a class 03 shunter is a pretty tiny wheelbase.


I think cl483 are 17m long, so you do have a choice of 143/144 pacers going very spare that would fit(I think they are 11' 9" same as 313, but only 15m long)

other than that then you have D-trains or you have to wait for the waterloo and city stock to go spare in about 3 years.
..you could have the outgoing DLR stock if converted to top contact!

it is probably easier just biting the bullet and making the infrastructure adjustments, but as usual there will be lots of dithering,prognosticating and general thumb-up-bum brain-in -neutral goings on so as to miss yet more potentially useable stock sent to scrap, just like the last underground stock they could have had.

they could have a fleet of half a dozen 313's for quite literally pennies.
at the very worst would cost less than SWR's CEO's annual bonus.

 

[MotCO]

I don't know, but if they haven't, SWR would love to market that they are bringing new trains to the IoW "for the first time ever!"

Such as Class 230?

 

[hooverboy]

Such as Class 230?

well at nearly £1m each it's not exactly cheap...so lets say £6m for a fleet of D trains.
D trains are only cheap because the cost of an average newbuild DMU/EMU is £1m- 1.5m PER CARRIAGE.

half a dozen 313's going at scrap rate would probably be about £150k...maybe get 4 more to cannibalise for spares and thats £250k.
the remainder could then be spent on the necessary groundworks and electricals

by the time you've nabbed some refurbished 750v switchgear and shaved the platforms you've probably still got £2m left.
..that £2m could be used for sorting out any nasty sections of rail that really desperately need replacing.
from a finance point of view if that's supposed to be a 20-30 year investment it's not that expensive.(I think I said before IoW council should probably bring in a hotel/resort fee /municipal tax of 2 or 3 quid per room per night to cover the cost)

 

[hooverboy]

I don't know, but if they haven't, SWR would love to market that they are bringing new trains to the IoW "for the first time ever!"

if they'd love to market it, why haven't they done it?

current business plan says it's a loss leader and so costs need stripping out.
..business needs drumming up is another way of looking at it, but that one falls fairly and squarely on the council.

put on some decent events and people will come.
make the travel process to/from/on the island easier,and more people will come.

 

[Chris M]

other than that then you have D-trains or you have to wait for the waterloo and city stock to go spare in about 3 years.

And the rest. I believe the Waterloo & City line will be getting new stock around the same time as the Central line again - which is going to be closer to 2030 than 2020.

..you could have the outgoing DLR stock if converted to top contact!

Somewhere in this thread I did a detailed comparison of the 1938 stock, D train and B90/92/2K stock. Even if it wasn't already worn out it would be too tall, too long and the floor too high for the island line.

 

[67018]

if they'd love to market it, why haven't they done it?

current business plan says it's a loss leader and so costs need stripping out.
..business needs drumming up is another way of looking at it, but that one falls fairly and squarely on the council.

put on some decent events and people will come.
make the travel process to/from/on the island easier,and more people will come.

A loss leader is something sold below cost in the anticipation of future profits. The Island line is no such thing as all information we have suggests is could quadruple its revenue and still would run at a loss.

There are plenty of decent events on the island and many people come - and use the excellent Southern Vectis bus service to get around.

Sadly nobody so far has come up with an answer to the challenge of a line with knackered trains, knackered infrastructure and which can’t cover more than a fraction of its costs.

 

[penrithsteve]

Have the Isle of Wight railways ever received brand new stock?

Yes .... but you have to go back a long way!
The Cowes & Newport Railway bought no.1 Pioneer and no. 2 Precurser new in 1861 and the Isle of Wight Railway's Beyer Peacock's were bought new between 1862 and 1883. I think the most recent new loco was the Isle of Wight Central Railway's no.8 in 1898

120 years of second-hand motive power doesn't look like ending soon

 

[Chris125]

I see no need to go round the block again re 313s, DLR etc - Long Marston is full of D78s in good condition, they are lightweight, low/short bodied, fit through the tunnel and by all accounts are SWR's preferred solution. We just need the DfT to make a decision.

 

[adrock1976]

To save me going back to the beginning of the tread and wading my way through 55 pages, are there still plans to transfer London Underground Piccadilly Line stock to the Isle of Wight?

If so, would it be the double cab sets e.g. the 8xx numbered sets?

I am almost certain that I read somewhere a few years ago in one of the forum sections that Piccadilly line stock was mentioned.

 

[Doomotron]

To save me going back to the beginning of the tread and wading my way through 55 pages, are there still plans to transfer London Underground Piccadilly Line stock to the Isle of Wight?

If so, would it be the double cab sets e.g. the 8xx numbered sets?

I am almost certain that I read somewhere a few years ago in one of the forum sections that Piccadilly line stock was mentioned.

Not really. The newest Underground stock is a couple of years away, and the D-Trains are SWR's (rightly!) preferred option.

 

[Chris125]

It seems £30m is the sum Network Rail will be spending on Ryde Pier:

https://twitter.com/IoWBobSeely/status/1158011968852254721

 

[takno]

It seems £30m is the sum Network Rail will be spending on Ryde Pier:

https://twitter.com/IoWBobSeely/status/1158011968852254721

What an incredibly strange tweet. Think I'd be inclined to wait for an announcement from Network Rail tbh

 

[Chris125]

What an incredibly strange tweet. Think I'd be inclined to wait for an announcement from Network Rail tbh

Strange? In what way?

 

[takno]

Strange? In what way?

The whole recognised as an island thing. He sounds a bit unhinged

 

[Chris125]

The whole recognised as an island thing. He sounds a bit unhinged

He's referring to government funding - a recent review finally saw the treasury acknowledge the financial impact.

https://twitter.com/IoWBobSeely/status/1158068639997845504

 

[The Ham]

The whole recognised as an island thing. He sounds a bit unhinged

He wrote a very reliable article on why we don't need HS2 recently including why we shouldn't be spending £132bn on it, seems perfectly normal to me.


(OK he didn't say £132bn but he did say £400 million a mile, which given HS2 is 330 miles long is the same thing)
https://onthewight.com/seely-resigns-from-parliamentary-private-secretary-role-over-hs2-vote/

 

[Mark J]

Surely the cheapest option would be to get a fleet of Parry People Movers onto the Island Line.

Something like this

or

At the same time upgrading the bullhead track on wooden sleepers with continuously welded track on concrete sleepers and removing the third rail.

In addition the Island Line needs some way of getting back into Newport, Cowes and Ventnor to cover all the main population areas of the island.

The only way now would be via Light Rail units that could also do Street running.

The Bembridge branch could be easily re-opened with a single PPM on single track.

 

[hwl]

Surely the cheapest option would be to get a fleet of Parry People Movers onto the Island Line.


At the same time upgrading the bullhead track on wooden sleepers with continuously welded track on concrete sleepers and removing the third rail.

In addition the Island Line needs some way of getting back into Newport, Cowes and Ventnor to cover all the main population areas of the island.

The only way now would be via Light Rail units that could also do Street running.

The Bembridge branch could be easily re-opened with a single PPM on single track.

Or CWR + concrete sleepers and keep the 3rd rail. The power issue is partially return current due to poor condition of jointed track...

 

[Chris125]

Surely the cheapest option would be to get a fleet of Parry People Movers onto the Island Line.

It's been suggested many times but the issues remain the same - an 8 mile/45mph/2tph service is way beyond the capabilities of their only proven design and seems entirely unsuited to their small engine/flywheel concept.

In reality it would be a new train to a new design which comes with considerable cost and risk. Converting from electric to diesel would be highly controversial too, with any significant reduction in performance risking the ability to run a timetable that connects with the hourly ferries.

 

[reddragon]

Surely the cheapest option would be to get a fleet of Parry People Movers onto the Island Line.

Something like this

or

At the same time upgrading the bullhead track on wooden sleepers with continuously welded track on concrete sleepers and removing the third rail.

In addition the Island Line needs some way of getting back into Newport, Cowes and Ventnor to cover all the main population areas of the island.

The only way now would be via Light Rail units that could also do Street running.

The Bembridge branch could be easily re-opened with a single PPM on single track.

Nah, hand it over to the IOW steam railway and use Terriers!

 

[Mark J]

How difficult would it be for the IOW Steam Railway to get back to Newport? It's crazy that the capital town of the IOW was cut off and still remains so.

On Google maps it looks like it would be possible to the outskirts of Newport but not much further.

 

[Sprinter150]

I believe that there is a road and an industrial estate, which blocks the path of the railway. I’ve heard that the route from Newport to Cowes is fairly intact, though.

 

[A0wen]

I believe that there is a road and an industrial estate, which blocks the path of the railway. I’ve heard that the route from Newport to Cowes is fairly intact, though.

I think when this has been asked previously the IoWSR could get to Cross Lane area of Newport - no further owing to development.

The Cowes line was on the east side of the Medina estuary, whereas the IoWSR comes in from the west side - no chance of the IoWSR getting to Cowes.

 

[Chris125]

There was a study by Jacobs a few years back on possible extensions which suggested a station near Victoria Road, a little short of the tunnel, made the most sense for Newport:

http://old-iwight.onthewight.com/li.../Transport_Strategies/images/IWCRailStudy.pdf

However realistically it could only be justified as an extension of the Steam Railway, and I can't see where the will nor the funding to achieve this would come from.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does Southern Vectis still meet the travel needs of the residents of the Isle of Wight?

 

[A0wen]

Does Southern Vectis still meet the travel needs of the residents of the Isle of Wight?

The answer to that seems to be yes - and arguably more effectively than the Island Line on the Ryde - Shanklin corridor as well.

 

[Sprinter150]

Whilst I can’t disagree about the efficiency of the seemingly well used operation, when I was using the services a few weeks ago, there appeared to be no slack in the timetable - even with fast drivers, 10 mins were lost. Although the modern E400 MMCs on many routes compensates.

 

[Chris125]

Does Southern Vectis still meet the travel needs of the residents of the Isle of Wight?

That rather depends on where you live, where your going, how much money you have to pay and how quickly you want to get there.

Though relatively comprehensive and frequent on the core routes, fares are expensive while Island roads and ever increasing road congestion make them slow and somewhat unreliable.