Isle of Man buses and coaches.

markymark2000

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First of all, Mann is the mainland as we're not an English county like Wight. Which is exactly why this wouldn't work. Vehicles would have to be hired, tested, insured, taxed and possibly re-registered (unless an exemption was granted). Space on Sailings at the beginning and end of the TT is at a premium, meaning any hire vehicles might have to be Shipped off Island a few days after the TT. A two week hire at this point could have turned into three weeks plus. It simply wouldn't be worth it.

Southern Vectis being part of Go-Ahead Group are in effect just temporarily transferring Buses between Depots. The only real cost being shipping.
I beg to differ slightly. a 3 or even 4 week hire is doable. The cost to GoAhead is slightly lower as they won't be paying the hire fee but they are still sending staff and buses over. Staff still need somewhere to stay as well and all that stuff. The 'hire' fee would be offset by the increased revenue. An exception could be put in place as it would benefit the island that much.
I suppose what needs to be looked at is the cost difference of having the deckers for 11 months over singles and then look at the cost of brining buses over from mainland UK for the month.

Twelve Deckers would be insufficient. 30 would be ideal, and plausible perhaps sometime next year. 10 StreetDecks and 10 B9TLs withdrawn this year, and I'd order 6 more StreetDecks next year to bring us to a nice 30. That would be an optimal Decker Fleet.


Exactly the above. It would be like Arriva bringing a Bus from the Arriva Italy division to operate with Arriva North West for two weeks, then sending it back. Isle Of Man is an independent country not a uk Island.
It is COMPLETELY different to Arriva hiring buses of Italy. Italy is a lot further away, and they would be hiring off someone closer. The closest bus operators to the IOM are Northern Ireland (which has limited ferry service to the island) or Mainland UK. On an island with 1 bus operator, you need to call on industry friends sometimes and help eachother out. 1 month of hires could be cheaper than 11 months of deckers which shouldn't be needed but are because people can't schedule buses properly.

12 deckers shouldn't really be that insufficient if bus duties are created in such a way that the capacity is at the right parts of the routes at the right times.


No, they aren't being used efficiently. I suggested a way for the deckers, plus the extra ones I believe are required, to be used efficiently.

How is it TfL logic to have the island's busiest bus routes with the correct level of capacity? I drove them for a living, and a Citaro simply isn't big enough for them, even between peak periods I had Citaros which were full or nearly full. They should be kept on routes like the 4 and Douglas local routes.
Probably shouldn't be running such infrequent buses then. The Island has enough buses overall if they got used as they should. That's the problem with publicly owned and ran buses, nothing is ever efficient and capacity isn't put where demand is. IF you know some trips are going to be busy, mix up deckers and singles on the duties to make it work. Private companies can manage to match capacity with demand, why can't public!
 
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507021

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Isle of Man timetables being extremely complex, and no routing of the Douglas locals seemingly lasting more than a year or two, are you able to give us an idea of roughly what interworks with what? As a 'student of timetables' these things interest me greatly, and it isn't always easy to do a paper exercise, even if I did have the time!

Incidentally, the first time I ever rode a Streetlite was on Man, from Ramsey to the Jurby Transport Museum. I wholly concur with their dreadfulness, and it has clouded my view of the things ever since!
Apart from the dedicated minibus (Sprinters 141-5) routes, pretty much any route can interwork with another. For example, when I was there, I could start with a Douglas local route, head up to Ramsey and then come back to Douglas (via either the east or west coast) and spend the rest of the day around Douglas. It's really confusing.
 

507021

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12 deckers shouldn't really be that insufficient if bus duties are created in such a way that the capacity is at the right parts of the routes at the right times.
There's absolutely no way twelve deckers for the Isle of Man bus network is enough, because if it was, I'm fairly certain that's how many they'd have now.

Probably shouldn't be running such infrequent buses then. The Island has enough buses overall if they got used as they should. That's the problem with publicly owned and ran buses, nothing is ever efficient and capacity isn't put where demand is. IF you know some trips are going to be busy, mix up deckers and singles on the duties to make it work. Private companies can manage to match capacity with demand, why can't public!
In what world are frequencies of 15, 20 or 30 minutes infrequent?

Please read what I've said. I said the Isle of Man needs more double deckers instead of singles, not more buses on top of what they have already. I think the fleet size they have now is what it should be.
 

Tetchytyke

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I drove them for a living, and a Citaro simply isn't big enough for them, even between peak periods I had Citaros which were full or nearly full.
Which routes did you find the busiest? With the changes in March the 1/2/11/12 seem to be self-contained and seem to have more double deckers on them (I say seem as obviously Covid binned all that off), and in more recent times the frequency has increased from 3bph to 4bph (2 via Colby, 2 via Port St Mary). My (limited!) experience suggests 4-6 more deckers would be plenty, and would stop the issues where deckers are nabbed from the mainline buses to run schools buses.

I'd agree about the 4, when they stick a Sprinter on it that is often enough.
 
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Tetchytyke

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The closest bus operators to the IOM are Northern Ireland (which has limited ferry service to the island) or Mainland UK
If you call the UK the mainland here you'll get lynched!

The crucial thing a lot of people don't understand is that the Isle of Man is NOT the UK. Buses would need to be re-registered here for three weeks, then re-registered again on their return to the UK. It can be quick- I re-registered my car at the post office and immediately was able to get new number plates, and my new logbook appeared in two days- but it is a faff. The vehicles also have to be tested for roadworthiness (sinilar to the MOT) before they can be registered. Hiring in buses is not simple.
 

507021

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Which routes did you find the busiest? With the changes in March the 1/2/11/12 seem to be self-contained and seem to have more double deckers on them (I say seem as obviously Covid binned all that off), and in more recent times the frequency has increased from 3bph to 4bph (2 via Colby, 2 via Port St Mary). My (limited!) experience suggests 4-6 more deckers would be plenty.

I'd agree about the 4, when they stick a Sprinter on it that is often enough.
From personal experience, the 1/2/11/12 and 5/6 were by far the busiest when I was there. I'd say the 22 is the busiest Douglas local route.

It's really good to hear the south routes are getting priority for deckers, though. It would be good to see the 5/6 go that way as well, and I'll concede the 3 is probably the only trunk route which only needs deckers at peak times. Citaros seemed to be enough on there for most of the day.
 

507021

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If you call the UK the mainland here you'll get lynched!

The crucial thing a lot of people don't understand is that the Isle of Man is NOT the UK. Buses would need to be re-registered here for three weeks, then re-registered again on their return to the UK. It can be quick- I re-registered my car at the post office and immediately was able to get new number plates, and my new logbook appeared in two days- but it is a faff. The vehicles also have to be tested for roadworthiness (sinilar to the MOT) before they can be registered. Hiring in buses is not simple.
Exactly right. The long-term StreetLite demonstrator had to be re-registered (ERZ 2028 to MAN-41-H, then again to LMN-267-K a bit later to release MAN-41-H for Sprinter 141), although interestingly the Citaro artics weren't. Unless it's changed since, I think the grace period was a bit more than three weeks when I was living there.
 

Tetchytyke

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Unless it's changed since, I think the grace period was a bit more than three weeks when I was living there.
There isn't technically a grace period and the police are really clamping down on cars with UK plates (I keep getting stopped in my car which is waiting for a test at Tromode, and I've only been here a few months), although other two-week demonstrators weren't re-registered in the past tbf. I'm sure questions would be asked if the DoT were routinely doing it, not least by those who keep getting stopped in UK registered cars.
 

507021

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There isn't technically a grace period and the police are really clamping down on cars with UK plates (I keep getting stopped in my car which is waiting for a test at Tromode, and I've only been here a few months), although other two-week demonstrators weren't re-registered in the past tbf. I'm sure questions would be asked if the DoT were routinely doing it, not least by those who keep getting stopped in UK registered cars.
It must have changed since I was there then, as the Citaro artic demonstrators were in use for a month and they retained their UK registration numbers.
 

Tetchytyke

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It must have changed since I was there then, as the Citaro artic demonstrators were in use for a month and they retained their UK registration numbers.
The law is woolly- "reasonably practicable" crops up, as does whether it's a permanent or temporary arrangement without defining either. For a demonstrator every so often I doubt anyone cares, but if it becomes a routine thing I'm sure questions would be asked. From what I've heard, it's not as though Ian Longworth is universally adored here.

It is another layer of faff to consider, on top of sourcing spare buses and finding space on the Steam Racket to get them here.
 

markymark2000

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There's absolutely no way twelve deckers for the Isle of Man bus network is enough, because if it was, I'm fairly certain that's how many they'd have now.



In what world are frequencies of 15, 20 or 30 minutes infrequent?

Please read what I've said. I said the Isle of Man needs more double deckers instead of singles, not more buses on top of what they have already. I think the fleet size they have now is what it should be.
You have said yourself that they are needed for the busy month which implies that they have more than they need. The island has 73 buses! The PVR of the service work is around 30-40 thus leaving another 30-40 buses available for use to increase frequencies. On routes of 30 minute frequencies, up the frequency at peak times. You don't need deckers all the time on the island really. It's a typical publicly owned company stance. Next you will be saying that you want some of the BCI Excellence vehicles because you once had a full Gemini.

Trunk routes don't need deckers all the time, you just time buses so that they are at the right ends of the route. You can't buy deckers when they are only actually needed for a few trips per day. The additional cost of purchase and general increase in operating costs isn't sustainable for the few trips which they are needed. Especially if 10-15 mins into the trip, the a single decker would suffice. My local bus has full standing loads at peak time running every 10 minutes using Pulsars. Why don't they buy deckers, because for 95% of the time, the single decker is fine. You have to plan for the 95% of the time, not the 5% high demand.
 

507021

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You have said yourself that they are needed for the busy month which implies that they have more than they need. The island has 73 buses! The PVR of the service work is around 30-40 thus leaving another 30-40 buses available for use to increase frequencies. On routes of 30 minute frequencies, up the frequency at peak times. You don't need deckers all the time on the island really. It's a typical publicly owned company stance. Next you will be saying that you want some of the BCI Excellence vehicles because you once had a full Gemini.

Trunk routes don't need deckers all the time, you just time buses so that they are at the right ends of the route. You can't buy deckers when they are only actually needed for a few trips per day. The additional cost of purchase and general increase in operating costs isn't sustainable for the few trips which they are needed. Especially if 10-15 mins into the trip, the a single decker would suffice. My local bus has full standing loads at peak time running every 10 minutes using Pulsars. Why don't they buy deckers, because for 95% of the time, the single decker is fine. You have to plan for the 95% of the time, not the 5% high demand.
I feel I've already quite clearly explained my opinion that the island needs more deckers in the place of single deckers because the network needs more capacity than it has now for its busiest routes. And please stop being facetious, there's no need for it.

The point is, if you'd ever been to the Isle of Man, you'd have seen how busy routes like the 1/2 (airport and south) and 5/6 (Ramsey and Peel) can get and do require a full decker allocation throughout the day. I've driven them for a living, so I know from experience. Comparing your local route in Chester to routes like Bus Vannin's 1/2 and 5/6 is an extremely poor and unfair comparison. The current management of Bus Vannin prefer to have full size single deckers as the bulk of the fleet, so to repeat myself, if they felt confident that twelve deckers were enough, then that's how many there'd be. It really is that simple.

The Arriva depot I work at doesn't have full or nearly full deckers all day every day, but it absolutely does need them at and around the peak periods. Does that mean they should be swapped for Commanders and Pulsars because they're only full at certain times of the day?
 

MotCO

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There is indeed, however the most modern preserved Vehicle (low floor) is a 1997 Marshall Capital Dennis Dart. All withdrawn low floor Deckers have left the Island, sadly, as new Fleet Replacement Policy of early withdrawal to cut maintenance costs and recoup higher resale value effectively prohibits Bus Vannin Vehicles entering retirement after withdrawal. All the DAF DB250s and Dennis Tridents were shipped to the uk after service.

Olympian 99 is in Jurby Museum and still in Bus Vannin ownership however, though unlikely she'd be brought out and inspected to run for two weeks.
Do they have to be modern buses, or do they have to be disability compliant? Otherwise, surely some old double deckers could be given a run out as a bit of a novelty. It is only for two weeks after all, and in the UK, old non-compliant buses can be run for up to 20 days a year if I recall correctly.

With regard to hiring buses from the UK, if they are the same buses each year, would they need to be type approved? I also assume one difficulty is that the Isle of Man is not part of the EU.
 

507021

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Do they have to be modern buses, or do they have to be disability compliant? Otherwise, surely some old double deckers could be given a run out as a bit of a novelty. It is only for two weeks after all, and in the UK, old non-compliant buses can be run for up to 20 days a year if I recall correctly.
As far as I'm aware, all service buses must be fully accessible for passengers who are wheelchair users or have another form of disability. The only heritage vehicles which actually get used are the ones based at Banks Circus, and even then it's only for special events and private hires.

Bus Vannin's fleet became fully accessible ten years ago, so well ahead of the vast majority of UK operators.
 

Tetchytyke

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The PVR of the service work is around 30-40 thus leaving another 30-40 buses available for use to increase frequencies
The PVR is higher- one full circuit (Nobles-Douglas-Port Erin-Douglas-Onchan-Douglas) on the south buses is 3h32, and that has 4 buses an hour.

And you don't factor in the schools services- all operated by Bus Vannin- which require double deckers at the same time as the peak. Some of the schools services are quite long, as you'd expect as there's only 5 secondary schools on the whole island. So actually, you can need double deckers for only a few journeys a day.

The Citaros cope fine most of the time, but I'd agree with @507021 that a few more Streetdecks instead of Citaros wouldn't go amiss. As much as anything, they provide cover.
 

507021

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The Citaros cope fine most of the time, but I'd agree with @507021 that a few more Streetdecks instead of Citaros wouldn't go amiss. As much as anything, they provide cover.
Absolutely, a half and half order next year would be ideal, and then similar orders again in the future if demand increases.

The island's population is growing gradually (currently 85,000 compared to 83,000 when I left), so I expect that at some point in the latter part of the next 10 years we'll possibly see a shift back towards deckers again. Time will tell though.
 

markymark2000

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The PVR is higher- one full circuit (Nobles-Douglas-Port Erin-Douglas-Onchan-Douglas) on the south buses is 3h32, and that has 4 buses an hour.

And you don't factor in the schools services- all operated by Bus Vannin- which require double deckers at the same time as the peak. Some of the schools services are quite long, as you'd expect as there's only 5 secondary schools on the whole island. So actually, you can need double deckers for only a few journeys a day.

The Citaros cope fine most of the time, but I'd agree with @507021 that a few more Streetdecks instead of Citaros wouldn't go amiss. As much as anything, they provide cover.
I was looking at the 1 timetable and it's hard to make much sense of it but I got a general just of around 10-15 buses. School routes (the published timetables on the gov site) seemed quite small as well. 10-15 mins. Some longer of course but a good few smaller ones which worked out that each bus could do more than 1 school.
 

507021

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I was looking at the 1 timetable and it's hard to make much sense of it but I got a general just of around 10-15 buses. School routes (the published timetables on the gov site) seemed quite small as well. 10-15 mins. Some longer of course but a good few smaller ones which worked out that each bus could do more than 1 school.
If the fleet PVR was as low as you've suggested, then there's no way they'd have 78 vehicles. When I was there, it wasn't uncommon for Banks Circus depot to be empty in the morning and also when the afternoon school services were operating. I'd imagine it's still the same now.

I really don't think you can get an idea of how Bus Vannin works just by looking at the timetables. If you ever get the chance to do so, you need to go over there and see it for yourself.
 

duncombec

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If the fleet PVR was as low as you've suggested, then there's no way they'd have 78 vehicles. When I was there, it wasn't uncommon for Banks Circus depot to be empty in the morning and also when the afternoon school services were operating. I'd imagine it's still the same now.

I really don't think you can get an idea of how Bus Vannin works just by looking at the timetables. If you ever get the chance to do so, you need to go over there and see it for yourself.
Quite! I have just tried looking at the timetables, and have estimated an off-peak PVR in the high 30's, if not low 40s. I got lost trying to work out what half the 1 etc group does with the 21, 22H and 25H, which seem to have more journeys ending at Nobles Hospital than beginning, and the complex 4/14 group, so guessed a bit towards the end. That is also on minimal layovers and not allowing for any stepping back, e.g. 8 minutes layover at either end were the 3 self-contained. That doesn't include any peak hour extras such as the Manx Express services, or schools, which must be another good dozen (and the timetables suggest few occasions where services could do two schools, unless the bus can be in two places at once), nor anything other than one bus for the Ramsey village services.

I think we have to take the current or former locals - especially drivers - at their word and accept that the network runs as the network needs, not the word of someone who has done a little bit of timetable study and thinks Bus Vannin have a 100% spares ratio.
 

507021

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Quite! I have just tried looking at the timetables, and have estimated an off-peak PVR in the high 30's, if not low 40s.
I don't know what Bus Vannin's current PVR is, but that sounds about right.

They're a good operator to work for, but as a driver I found the way the network operates very confusing. It's a lot easier where I work now, with drivers allocated to certain routes rather than the majority of the network.
 

Tetchytyke

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as a driver I found the way the network operates very confusing
It's not any less confusing for us passengers :lol:

got lost trying to work out what half the 1 etc group does with the 21, 22H and 25H, which seem to have more journeys ending at Nobles Hospital than beginning
The 'extra' bus goes back to Lord Street as a 5.

It's hard to follow because they swap buses through Banks Circus during the day.

The 4 and 14 are fairly straightforward, the 4 does Douglas-Foxdale-Peel-Niarbyl and the 14 does Douglas-Foxdale-Castletown. They time it so a 4 from Peel arrives at Foxdale at the same time as a 14 to Castletown, and try and promote it as a through link from Peel to Castletown, but it isn't really.

Trying to work anything much out from Bus Vannin timetables is fun! I know when the 4/14 goes past my house in Douglas, but apart from that its anyone's guess.
 

Arriva Fan

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No problem, happy to do that. :)

Quite possibly, it's just modern buses have a lot more electrical features (sensors etc) and they can be quite expensive to replace. It's the same with modern cars with DPFs, once they reach a certain age the cost of replacing a DPF exceeds the value of the car.

I thought 121-6 were alright, but 131-4/241-2 were absolutely dreadful. For me, what should have happened is 121-6 were retained longer, and then replaced with Citaro Ks. My main issue with the interworking is that if one bus is running late it can lead to a knock-on effect across the network, whereas if the trunk routes were operated separately then this won't have as much of an effect. I can see the benefits to interworking, but the former is the main downside, as well as high capacity buses end up being wasted on routes where they're not needed.

Had this order been all for StreetDecks, I think that would have been ideal, but another six next year instead could well do the trick. I'm quite interested to see how the hybrid Citaros fare though, being the island's first hybrid buses, so I'll definitely be asking my friend how they're doing once they've entered service.

Good news to hear Bus Vannin have chosen the six cylinder powerplants, that means they'll have plenty of power for the island's hills.

No problem, I hope you get to drive for them one day. :)
Gura mie ayd :), it's genuinely good to have someone else who is into Bus Vannin.

This is true, and perhaps why Bus Vannin have shortened their initial 12 year life expectancy. However, I don't see Mercedes going anywhere soon, so replacement parts and support should continue to be available, though at what price I'm not sure. Whereas ELC and DAF are both out of the Bus Market through take overs.

Had the Citaro K not become available Bus Vannin would have retained 131-134 & 241-242 for a reasonable working life, however the desire to standardise on a common supplier to save costs drove their early retirement. If there was a Citaro Double Decker it'd be on the Island, and given Berlins preference to Decker Operation it's a little surprising there ins't a Citaro Doppeldecker. I can see that being a problem, road works in Pulrose leading to a delayed Douglas-Laxey-Ramsey Interurban Service 3 Departure for example, but I think with Bus Vannin being a regular target for public criticism, they need to operate as efficiently as possible. I don't think they could achieve that by splitting their Urban, Interurban (and possibly Rural) networks.

I genuinely think that we might see more StreetDecks soon. Had the Volvo B5TL performed better, the 2009 B9TL batch would probably have been replaced by now, their extended life was only to allow Bus Vannin to source the next generation of Double Decker. Hopefully the Daimler Powered StreetDeck is the answer, but the large order suggested Bus Vannin are confident in them. Remember, pre global pandemic, Bus Vannin were recording good passenger numbers and healthy annual growth, so it's entirely possible we'll see a 2021 StreetDeck batch.

Thanks mate, I've got my PCV License now so hopefully I'll get to the Island soon.
 

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Yeah, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea tbh.

We asked about one of 55 or 80 when they were the last two of 2002 batch left in service, as that was our favourite batch of DB250s.

Locally, Maghull Coaches have 8, 41-43 and 44-46, and Ashcrofts have 89-91. A bit further afield, but not all that far away, Howards Travel Group have 7 and 10. I'd like to have another go at buying either 55 or 80, if not then I'd try and go for one of the 44-46 batch.

So far, the only ELCs which have been scrapped after leaving the island are 78 and 92-94, although one of the latter was destroyed by fire.
Yeah, like I said I'd have loved 55 at the time but then I couldn't have driven her so it was all just a dream really. I've heard before that the 2002 batch were the best, what was it about them?

That's quite an ex Bus Vannin Fleet you have close by, I'd struggle to choose who to preserve! It would be nice to see one of the Spectras preserved, but the ELC Myllennium is more iconic. They simply were Manx Buses.

I'm seriously considering one of the 1994 Dennis Dart Plaxton Pointers still on Jersey, either 72 or 79. I know they weren't on the Island long, but I've always like the Pointer and it'd be good to have one.

Also, when you say you'd like to return a DB250 to the Island, do you mean you'd like to re-migrate in the future?
 

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I beg to differ slightly. a 3 or even 4 week hire is doable. The cost to GoAhead is slightly lower as they won't be paying the hire fee but they are still sending staff and buses over. Staff still need somewhere to stay as well and all that stuff. The 'hire' fee would be offset by the increased revenue. An exception could be put in place as it would benefit the island that much.
I suppose what needs to be looked at is the cost difference of having the deckers for 11 months over singles and then look at the cost of brining buses over from mainland UK for the month.


It is COMPLETELY different to Arriva hiring buses of Italy. Italy is a lot further away, and they would be hiring off someone closer. The closest bus operators to the IOM are Northern Ireland (which has limited ferry service to the island) or Mainland UK. On an island with 1 bus operator, you need to call on industry friends sometimes and help eachother out. 1 month of hires could be cheaper than 11 months of deckers which shouldn't be needed but are because people can't schedule buses properly.

12 deckers shouldn't really be that insufficient if bus duties are created in such a way that the capacity is at the right parts of the routes at the right times.



Probably shouldn't be running such infrequent buses then. The Island has enough buses overall if they got used as they should. That's the problem with publicly owned and ran buses, nothing is ever efficient and capacity isn't put where demand is. IF you know some trips are going to be busy, mix up deckers and singles on the duties to make it work. Private companies can manage to match capacity with demand, why can't public!
Not if one or two weeks of the hire is spent in Port awaiting shipment, at a Vehicle Testing Centre awaiting certification and waiting for relevant documents before being used in Service. Go-Ahead could also get their own staff to bring them to the Island, Bus Vannin would need to have them delivered to the Port, then collected in Douglas by their own staff as a Manx PPV License isn't valid in the uk and vice versa. Where would the delivery staff come from? You've also called Bus Vannins use of resources inefficient and criticised supposed poor scheduling, so who has approx 10 Double Deckers available for hire and the staff to deliver them in a short timescale? I'd say that's the operator who isn't utilising their assets efficiently.

It's an exaggerated comparison, but the regulatory nightmare of re-registering a Vehicle for two weeks is totally valid. Also, what you aren't understanding is that the TT attracts around 45000 visitors. Most of whom travel by Bus at some point, and Bus Vannin operate additional Services to meet this demand, on Routes 3, 5/6 & 19 alongside additional TT Specials TT3 & TT6. Also, the Race Course cuts though Douglas and Ramsey, meaning some Services need to be split, 22 becomes 22V & 22L for example. So it's not 'poor scheduling', on the contrary it is exceptional scheduling from their OWN RESOURCES because Bus Vannin cannot hire vehicles in (explained above) or hire drivers in.

Either yourself or the beloved private operators couldn't do it, so lets stop criticising Bus Vannin and complimenting their excellent work to keep Mann moving during it's busiest period from existing resources. All whilst under the critical gaze of the Manx Taxpayers.
 

duncombec

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The 'extra' bus goes back to Lord Street as a 5.
Ah... I hadn't noticed there was only one 5 in one direction but two in the other on the hospital summary. I shall have to revise my figures! (Although it does make you wonder why they don't run it as a 25H, so both the 22H and 25H are hourly circulars... they must have their reasons!) It does go to prove the point made further up the thread that sometimes, you do actually have to go and watch what happens.

The 4 and 14 are fairly straightforward, the 4 does Douglas-Foxdale-Peel-Niarbyl and the 14 does Douglas-Foxdale-Castletown. They time it so a 4 from Peel arrives at Foxdale at the same time as a 14 to Castletown, and try and promote it as a through link from Peel to Castletown, but it isn't really.
Again, having to scroll between pages I hadn't noticed the timings for the "connections" were the same. I'll look at that one again as well. There has to be some interworking there, as I believe the 14 arrive back something like 2 minutes after the next one leaves.

Trying to work anything much out from Bus Vannin timetables is fun! I know when the 4/14 goes past my house in Douglas, but apart from that its anyone's guess.
Kept me amused for half an hour yesterday afternoon at any rate... and looks like another half hour this evening!
 

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