Item dropped on track at unstaffed station.

[fraser158]

If an item such as a phone or wallet (or shoe) were to fall onto the line at an unstaffed station, what would the proper course of action be?

 

[O L Leigh]

Well it certainly isn't what I witnessed a couple of years back at an unstaffed station.

One of a group of four very drunk eejits had dropped their phone on the track and another of their number was leaning right out over the edge to have a proper look just as I was running in. It was a good thing I was braking to a stand otherwise I would have taken his head off, no question. Then, having stopped, he elected to jump down underneath the train to fetch it while I was doing my station duties. Luckily for him I also missed this second chance to kill him because the other passengers on the platform ran up to the cab and warned me.

Needless to say I was less than impressed, so conveyed them all to the next (staffed) station, located all four of them, harangued them loudly and firmly and then had them all ejected from the train.

O L Leigh

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Press the button on the help point. If the station doesn't have a help point and you don't want to leave said item on the track then you are going to need a mobile phone. If you don't have a phone either (suppose it's the thing on the track) then you probably want to speak to the crew of the next train which stops.

 

[34D]

Keep back from the platform edge behind the yellow line?

 

[A-driver]

Going into the track to get it is never an option-no matter how well you think you know the timetable if that is what you are fishing for...

Tragically on New Year's Eve at a Hertfordshire station on the ECML a man dropped his wallet on the track and knelt down to quickly pick it up before his train arrived. Sadly a fast train came round the corner and killed him infront of his family. That was at an unstaffed station.

No matter how desperate someone is to get something back the only way to retrieve an item is to contact the TOC or NR and arrange it to be officially collected. And if course as the above poster says, keep back from the edge in the first place and then you won't actually drop anything!

 

[DJL]

Going into the track to get it is never an option-no matter how well you think you know the timetable if that is what you are fishing for...

Tragically on New Year's Eve at a Hertfordshire station on the ECML a man dropped his wallet on the track and knelt down to quickly pick it up before his train arrived. Sadly a fast train came round the corner and killed him infront of his family. That was at an unstaffed station.

No matter how desperate someone is to get something back the only way to retrieve an item is to contact the TOC or NR and arrange it to be officially collected. And if course as the above poster says, keep back from the edge in the first place and then you won't actually drop anything!

I saw a woman once drop something while she was boarding a train. Pretty hard to keep back in this instance and probably not a valid use for the emergency stop button unless:

If the item is large and somehow landed on the running rail could it pose a derailment risk? I guess it would have to be very large/heavy/solid a mobile phone would just get crushed.

Also I once witnessed a maintenance staff jump down onto the track between trains to fetch an item that a passenger had dropped just moments before the staff happened to walk past. It struck me as a foolish thing to do without at least contacting the signal box first (but maybe he did and I missed that while a train went past on a different line)

 

[tsr]

It's worth noting that whilst some TOC staff who you may call/speak to are able to arrange a line block or advise the signaller/control of any hazard on the track, not all of them are actually able to go on the line to retrieve such things. But it doesn't mean the line is then clear for a passenger to do so.

I guess if the object is not hazardous to trains and won't be destroyed by a train when one approaches, you should probably ask the crew to assist. If there are no crew because, for example, the last train of the day has gone, a help point or the NR switchboard number may be the best options to use - but don't expect someone to necessarily be called to the location to help you, unless the object could pose a significant hazard.

 

[bigdelboy]

The obvious and correct answer is as above to ensure appropriate railway authorities are contacted and for them to organise retrieval, and appropriate actions are for them to retrieve your object.

To attempt to receive oneself involves risk of injury/death (and knock on's to family and driver) and risk of prosecution.

That said, a cost/risk/benefit of an individual situation may indicate self retrieval; however it is likely most people would significantly underestimate the risk assessment and also have over complacency on some non standard senarios (e.g. 47843 running amok at high speed; possibility of tripping and knocking oneself out). For example at a remote low frequency relatively low linespeed non third rail single track with good escape to the side of the track and in daylight when a additional sober, reponsible and alert person could lookout the risk might be quite low (e.g chetnole); On a high density high speed double track third rail at night where trains could pass at high speed both ways simulatenously the risk would be considerably higher e.g. inebriated person at whitley.

 

[The Snap]

If an item such as a phone or wallet (or shoe) were to fall onto the line at an unstaffed station, what would the proper course of action be?

Surely the best thing to do is stand back from the platform edge? If the station is unstaffed, chances are it isn't generally that busy. Hence, there's no reason to be stood so close to the edge...

 

[fraser158]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I'd like to stress that I know not to go onto the track and I haven't been unfortunate enough to have anything fall onto it.

 

[carriageline]

Interesting, not sure how I would react if someone from a call center in India/control rang up to ask for a line blockage for a platform! Intact, IIRC the rules only say you can grant a line blockage to platform staff (could possibly use train crew if there is a train to hand!)

 

[jon0844]

I wonder what actually would happen if you used the help point? I'm not sure it's enough to use the emergency button, but if you pressed the Information button then the call centre in Mumbai isn't likely to have a clue what to do.

In fact, there's a good chance the person might just try giving you the time of the next train on that platform and apologising a lot.

At staffed stations, I've seen staff use a litter picker to pick up objects (I've seen a shoe and also a pair of glasses collected like this) just after a train leaves the platform, so never actually stepping down on to the track.

 

[The Snap]

I wonder what actually would happen if you used the help point? I'm not sure it's enough to use the emergency button, but if you pressed the Information button then the call centre in Mumbai isn't likely to have a clue what to do.

In fact, there's a good chance the person might just try giving you the time of the next train on that platform and apologising a lot.

At staffed stations, I've seen staff use a litter picker to pick up objects (I've seen a shoe and also a pair of glasses collected like this) just after a train leaves the platform, so never actually stepping down on to the track.

Similalrly, the train itself is used as protection and the platform staff will jump down once the driver gives the nod. This happens on the Underground frequently I beleive.

 

[edwin_m]

Also I once witnessed a maintenance staff jump down onto the track between trains to fetch an item that a passenger had dropped just moments before the staff happened to walk past. It struck me as a foolish thing to do without at least contacting the signal box first (but maybe he did and I missed that while a train went past on a different line)

Might be OK if the person concerned has IWA certification, is familiar with the area, has relevant PPE and knows they have enough visibility to get a decent warning time at that platform. All of these may be true if the person concerned is working nearby.

 

[Tomnick]

Interesting, not sure how I would react if someone from a call center in India/control rang up to ask for a line blockage for a platform! Intact, IIRC the rules only say you can grant a line blockage to platform staff (could possibly use train crew if there is a train to hand!)

I know what my response would be, and it wouldn't take long to say it either!!

 

[DJL]

Might be OK if the person concerned has IWA certification, is familiar with the area, has relevant PPE and knows they have enough visibility to get a decent warning time at that platform. All of these may be true if the person concerned is working nearby.

The worker who jumped down almost certainly couldn't have seen far enough, but there was a gang of them and the ones remaining on the platform could probably see a fair distance. I had observed the gang down on the track outside the station some minutes earlier.

He was only down there for about 5 seconds.

But qualifications and risk assessments aside, jumping down on a whim* without first at least checking with control that no trains are coming seems to me like it simply increases the opinion that the public doing so is acceptable.
From my position I couldn't hear the conversation with the member of the public so it's possible he told him "don't do this at home" or whatever, but that doesn't help the people watching it from the opposite platform.

Maybe I underestimate the average member of the public's common sense but somehow I doubt it!

*by whim I don't mean without thinking I just mean unplanned.

I've also seen the litter picker method

 

[carriageline]

I know what my response would be, and it wouldn't take long to say it either!!

Precisely my point, not sure if they would hear my response over the phone hitting the hook!! Worryingly, I can really imagine it happening!

 

[Tomnick]

I doubt the Indian call centres would have access to box phone numbers, and I'd like to think that Control would know better than to ask for it! In any case, the signalling regs only allow for a member of station staff asking for permission, though you could probably stretch a point to grant it to traincrew too (especially if they need to "walk alongside their train" to get to the object in question ).

 

[The Snap]

The worker who jumped down almost certainly couldn't have seen far enough, but there was a gang of them and the ones remaining on the platform could probably see a fair distance. I had observed the gang down on the track outside the station some minutes earlier.

He was only down there for about 5 seconds.

But qualifications and risk assessments aside, jumping down on a whim* without first at least checking with control that no trains are coming seems to me like it simply increases the opinion that the public doing so is acceptable.
From my position I couldn't hear the conversation with the member of the public so it's possible he told him "don't do this at home" or whatever, but that doesn't help the people watching it from the opposite platform.

Maybe I underestimate the average member of the public's common sense but somehow I doubt it!

*by whim I don't mean without thinking I just mean unplanned.

I've also seen the litter picker method

No matter how well intentioned from the track worker, if caught he'd probably have lost his ticket, and most likely his job!! (unless of course he did speak to the signaller, get a line blockage, and have the correct SSoW for the task...)

 

[Elecman]

A track worker even with IWA cannot work between platforms unless they are staggered without a Line Blockage as all lines between platform faces are RED Zone Prohibited.

 

[carriageline]

For the uninitiated, red zone prohibited means (in a nut shell) they can't work on an open line with look outs, has to be under a blockage, or a fence erected (AIUI anyway)

 

[Gemz91]

Had a lass come up to me a couple of years ago telling me she'd dropped her shoe down the side of the train after we pulled into a unstaffed station.

Told her she had two choices, either get on the train with one shoe, or go speak to the signal man once we'd left (there was a signal box at the end of the platform) and see if he had anything he could retrieve it with, but told her we couldn't wait as we were already late.

Still makes me smile to this day as i saw her leaving the train at a large station, walking among all the commuters with only one shoe on. Really hope she didn't have far to walk to work.

 

[SPADTrap]

I had to attend a recent incident as staff at Biggleswade on the ECML where a lad discovered he was on the wrong platform and had that exact dangerous thought "I'll only be on the line for seconds, quicker than any other way" and off he went! Those platform edges are higher than they look and he was right, he was only on the line for a few seconds but that's all it took for an East Coast HST on it's way back from Edinburgh to be unable to stop as he panic climbed the platform. Next thing he knew he was bing stabilised by paramedics who then had to search for his legs after losing them to the train.

Is an iPhone/wallet/keys/whatever you loose down there, a SHOE, really worth that?

All it takes. The same seconds that can make you think you're safe can change everything.

 

[bramling]

A track worker even with IWA cannot work between platforms unless they are staggered without a Line Blockage as all lines between platform faces are RED Zone Prohibited.

Just a genuine thought -- is it permissible on Network Rail for a train driver to secure his train and jump down in front to recover an item off the track? The reason I ask is because on LUL it's standard procedure, having first got the go ahead from control, for station staff to ask for the Train Operator to surrender their key in order to prove the train is secured, and then access the track using the train as their means of protection. I'm not sufficiently familiar with national rail rules & procedures to know if this is a viable option. Obviously I know it would be a non-starter if there was any possibility of the member of staff coming close to an adjacent line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had to attend a recent incident as staff at Biggleswade on the ECML where a lad discovered he was on the wrong platform and had that exact dangerous thought "I'll only be on the line for seconds, quicker than any other way" and off he went! Those platform edges are higher than they look and he was right, he was only on the line for a few seconds but that's all it took for an East Coast HST on it's way back from Edinburgh to be unable to stop as he panic climbed the platform. Next thing he knew he was bing stabilised by paramedics who then had to search for his legs after losing them to the train.

Is an iPhone/wallet/keys/whatever you loose down there, a SHOE, really worth that?

All it takes. The same seconds that can make you think you're safe can change everything.

I remember when I was initially trained on track safety, one of the first things that was trained was *never* access the track between two adjacent platform edges -- if needing to cross the track, always do it at the platform end so you have a place of safety immediately and easily accessible. I have climbed up from track level to platform when under official track access (with protection in place) and it's not as easy as it looks. I always shudder when I see kids (including those old enough to know better) thinking it's a bit of fun to play between platforms. Most of the time people get away with it, but luck always runs out in the end.

 

[A-driver]

Just a genuine thought -- is it permissible on Network Rail for a train driver to secure his train and jump down in front to recover an item off the track? The reason I ask is because on LUL it's standard procedure, having first got the go ahead from control, for station staff to ask for the Train Operator to surrender their key in order to prove the train is secured, and then access the track using the train as their means of protection. I'm not sufficiently familiar with national rail rules & procedures to know if this is a viable option. Obviously I know it would be a non-starter if there was any possibility of the member of staff coming close to an adjacent line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes it is possible to do that on NR metals. You don't surrender your key ( except on the NCL ) but I have retrieved things from the track before using my train as protection. I take the key off and put the brake into emergency so I know the train can't be moved whilst I'm infront of it.

You should tell the signaller what you are doing first and confirm that your train is adequate protection. Only time I have not told the signaller was on a single line when someone dropper a bag infront of the train whilst stationary at a platform. I saw no need to cause further delays when I could just jump down, retrieve bag, close doors and carry on in seconds using my train as protection.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I've seen more than once, on low-frequency parts of the underground, members of staff on the platform just waiting for a train to pass and then getting down to retrieve an item (between two platform faces) without calling anybody first.

Once, this was to retrieve a child's 5p coin

 

[bramling]

I've seen, more than once on low-frequency parts of the underground, members of staff on the platform just waiting for a train to pass and then getting down to retrieve an item (between two platform faces) without calling anybody first.

Once, this was to retrieve a child's 5p coin

Providing the member of staff is confident with the location and there is adequate sighting time, there's nothing inherently unsafe in this, at least where the platforms are at tube height -- a completely different matter for surface height platforms however. However the official method is for a train to be held to provide protection, by doing it this way you're removing virtually every element of risk.

One also has to be slightly mindful of what the passenger audience sees - there's a difference between a competent member of staff doing something, and a passenger whose perception and management of the risks may be very different.

Recently I had to remove a newspaper which had become caught on a tripcock tester. The consequence of not removing this newspaper would be that trains might start getting tripped, and then incurring delays whilst the safety procedures are followed. I rode through the section by train, got the driver to stop short, took his key for protection, jumped down in front of the train (wearing correct PPE), picked it up, and got back in the cab -- all done within 20 seconds. It did occur to me afterwards that the passengers waiting on the platform probably thought we'd seen an interesting newspaper on the track and fancied collecting it for a read!

In essence, whilst staff may do things which look casual, the reality is that there are strict procedures which are followed, it's the element of experience and familiarity with the local area which makes things happen quickly. I would always rather have to spend the time making the arrangements to collect something off the track, which to experienced staff is a very quick and easy process, then having to pick up the pieces when someone has made a decision which has gone horribly wrong.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Shouldn't they get the juice turned off?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Providing the member of staff is confident with the location and there is adequate sighting time, there's nothing inherently unsafe in this, at least where the platforms are at tube height -- a completely different matter for surface height platforms however. However the official method is for a train to be held to provide protection, by doing it this way you're removing virtually every element of risk.

One also has to be slightly mindful of what the passenger audience sees - there's a difference between a competent member of staff doing something, and a passenger whose perception and management of the risks may be very different.

I've seen this done on platforms at compromise height and SSL height (although never at tube height).

The passenger perception point is very very true - while most people are at least scared of the juice rails, I'm sure that very many people don't see the difference from a raw safety point of view of using an unsignalled crossing and going onto the track in a station - "I'm fit and alert, the screen says no trains for 3 minutes, what could possibly go wrong?"

Shouldn't they get the juice turned off?

I have no idea, but it's my impression, as someone who doesn't work in the industry, that staff on LU are trusted a bit more than staff on the big railway not to kill themselves

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I've seen a plank of wood that a chav had chucked on the line once at an unstaffed station, I waited til this lad had buggered off and went to the signal at the end of the platform and rang the signalman to red light the area so that I could with his permission (which I got) to retirive the item remotely as it was on the rails. Luckily there were no trains coming for 20 minutes which was enough time to safely remove the said item. Once removed I rang the same signalman again to say that the object has been removed and it is safe to let trains pass.