Jobsworths & Enthusiasts

[anthony263]

Today i had a run in with a jobsowrth at Richmond who had a go at me for taking a photo of a class 313. He certainbly didnt like it when i said that i was allowed and it wasnt illegal, after a few minutes i sadi that i would be phoning his boss up and that seemed to have shutten him up before he decided he had enough of harassing me and went to do his job and dispatch a train. This is certainly the first major inccident i have had and yes before anyone asks a email has been sent to South West Trains.

On a more pleasant step i was made very welcome taking photos of trains at Ealing Broadway and Kenssington OLympia and most other stations i visited. The only thing i was asked by staff at Ealing broadway was not to use flash.

Has anyone else had any problems with jobsworths and particulary any working for south west trains?

aAso read in the lastest copy of rail magazine is that their campaign does seem to be bearing some fruit at last although i think that some train operators need to retrain their staff!!!!!

 

[Aictos]

Did you follow the guidelines and told the staff what you were going to do as per the guidelines on the NR website - yes I know SWT manage the station but all TOCs adhere or should adhere to the Network Rail Guidelines which I was informed of by my MD.

Before you enter the platform

When you arrive at a station, please let the staff at the Network Rail Reception Desk know that you are on the station. This will help keep station staff informed so that they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there.

 

[jonnorail]

the best thing you can do is print off a copy of the TOC whose premises (stations you are doing photography within) and Network Rail and if possibly the BTP railway photography guidelines and the best and wierd thing is none of these three guidelines say it is illegal to take photographs within the railway environment and stations and anything railway related (within reason e.g. depots). Try this and if you get pulled up show the member(s) of staff that is / are giving you hassle and hopefully they will leave you be. Staff do have a habbit of making up there own rules as an individual I have noticed. I tend not to get hassle as I have a pass when I am doing freelance photography work either for a company or magazine(s) but I would reccommend this method to keep yourself right and staff as they do not seem to know what is illegal and illegal within the railway industry in terms of photography

Best Regards

Jonathan McGurk

Railway and Freelance Photographer

www.jonathanmcgurk.fotopic.net

 

[mumrar]

the best thing you can do is print off a copy of the TOC whose premises (stations you are doing photography within) and Network Rail and if possibly the BTP railway photography guidelines and the best and wierd thing is none of these three guidelines say it is illegal to take photographs within the railway environment and stations and anything railway related (within reason e.g. depots). Try this and if you get pulled up show the member(s) of staff that is / are giving you hassle and hopefully they will leave you be. Staff do have a habbit of making up there own rules as an individual I have noticed. I tend not to get hassle as I have a pass when I am doing freelance photography work either for a company or magazine(s) but I would reccommend this method to keep yourself right and staff as they do not seem to know what is illegal and illegal within the railway industry in terms of photography

Best Regards

Jonathan McGurk

Railway and Freelance Photographer

www.jonathanmcgurk.fotopic.net

The key element is to ask before undertaking any photography. It is courtesy in a very discourteous society and it's part of the guidelines we can use to defend ourselves. It also lets you know what they will and won't permit you to do while photographing, such as use of tripods etc.

 

[Jordy]

But what happens if you're changing from one train to another, and want to take a quick snap of one? Do you have to go and 'sign in' then?

 

[Ferret]

Exactly. It just calls for a bit of common sense here, sadly lacking at times. I'll put it this way; if you were to complain to a customer services department having received hassle while changing trains, I'm certain the response would be an apology
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

aAso read in the lastest copy of rail magazine is that their campaign does seem to be bearing some fruit at last although i think that some train operators need to retrain their staff!!!!!

As I've suggested elsewhere - there should be a small section on the enthusiast guidelines in the mandatory safety briefs that platform/on board crew receive periodically. A simple way of educating the ill-informed where the legalities of railway photography are concerned.

 

[Aictos]

As I've posted before FCC staff will be receiving a brief in the very near future highlighting what is and what is not permitted not to mention a poster at some of our major stations, I know Hadley Wood and New Barnet aren't exactly "major" stations but I know enthusiasts populate these stations plus I'm hoping to get two myself, one for my station and one for keeps just so I can say well I did have a hand in getting this far

I cant speak for the other TOCs but I can say that FCC does adhere to the NR Guidelines as stated by the MD who has the final word on anything.

It was this exact confusion which made me get in touch with our leader and I'm happy we've agreed and positive action will be taking place.

Still, I know some common sense does apply but that's on both parts and is a two way thing not a one way thing.

 

[anthony263]

Yes i was basically cahnging trains at richmond although i did ask one of the train dispaches if i could get a quick photo who kindly said for me to go ahead.

I always speak to a member of staff at any major station station i visit unless i am geting a quick photo as i am changing trains.

i have sent an email complaing to south west trains. In the case of first capital connect, 99% of their staff have welcomed me at their stations & the only time i havent asked a member of staff is when there is no staff about for example: at drayton park etc

Anyway most of the staff at stations i visit are very welcoming and it is sad when you get some idiots who spoil it.

 

[mumrar]

Yes i was basically cahnging trains at richmond although i did ask one of the train dispaches if i could get a quick photo who kindly said for me to go ahead.

I always speak to a member of staff at any major station station i visit unless i am geting a quick photo as i am changing trains.

i have sent an email complaing to south west trains. In the case of first capital connect, 99% of their staff have welcomed me at their stations & the only time i havent asked a member of staff is when there is no staff about for example: at drayton park etc

Anyway most of the staff at stations i visit are very welcoming and it is sad when you get some idiots who spoil it.

Your experience sounds all too familiar, and I'm afraid there are certain staff who do get off on this stuff. It actually makes them feel warm and fuzzy to have upset you. Their request rarely has anything to do with security or safety and everything to do with picking on someone. Lets not forget, outside the world of railway enthusiasts we are all trainspotters, regardless of having a pad, dictaphone, camera, or a rover ticket or whatever.

 

[Ferret]

Your experience sounds all too familiar, and I'm afraid there are certain staff who do get off on this stuff. It actually makes them feel warm and fuzzy to have upset you. Their request rarely has anything to do with security or safety and everything to do with picking on someone. Lets not forget, outside the world of railway enthusiasts we are all trainspotters, regardless of having a pad, dictaphone, camera, or a rover ticket or whatever.

Well, the more people complain about this kind of staff behaviour, the more likely these kind of staff are to receive disciplinary action. They'll soon reconsider if they find their livelihoods threatened.........

 

[LilLoaf]

Over the last few months i've been to several differant parts of this country and never had problems. I just kept myself to myself got on with what i was doing and didn't make a fuss about it which is want most train spotters do anyway. I've even been around London and the ever famous Birmingham New Street. I've asked staff or signed in (simply becuase i couldn't be bothered) and never had any problems.

Only time i've noticed staff getting "hyped up and excited" is when a charter comes through and train spotters are hanging out of windows as if the train is a horse box! Also when tornado came through Newcastle they had "event cover" staff who seemed to think putting a high vis vest on made them king of the world and caused more problems than enough!

At my local station Newcastle the staff are very pleasent and just leave you to get on with it. At Leeds back in arriva northern days (when times were easier as there was no terror attacks) a staff member asked me what i was doing and was actually interested in my hobby. He was asking me about number books, train mags, photo's, places i'd been etc. Made me feel very welcome.

 

[richa2002]

Let's have some common sense. It's obvious to anyone what we're doing, we're taking photos of trains, we shouldn't need to tell the station staff that.

 

[Tom B]

At Leeds back in arriva northern days (when times were easier as there was no terror attacks) a staff member asked me what i was doing and was actually interested in my hobby. He was asking me about number books, train mags, photo's, places i'd been etc. Made me feel very welcome.

What, so terrorism didn't exist prior to 2001?

 

[LilLoaf]

What, so terrorism didn't exist prior to 2001?

knew someone would come back with that. I meant there wasn't such a panic in this country as there is now. It wasn't on the news, papers as much as it is now.

I agree with Richard its obvous what we are doing. Taking photo's, its not rocket science.

 

[ukrob]

Let's have some common sense. It's obvious to anyone what we're doing, we're taking photos of trains, we shouldn't need to tell the station staff that.

Lets say there is a rare car on your street and a car enthusiast wants to take a picture of it from inside your front garden (private property).

Do you not think it would be courtious for the person taking the photo to let you know what he was doing?

This country has a far bigger problem with being curtious than a lack of common sense.

 

[D107]

Lets say there is a rare car on your street and a car enthusiast wants to take a picture of it from inside your front garden (private property).

Do you not think it would be courtious for the person taking the photo to let you know what he was doing?

This country has a far bigger problem with being curtious than a lack of common sense.

Fair point, but I hardly think you could compare 12a Acacia Avenue to Platform 5 at Kings Cross! Both are "privately owned" but Platform 5 has an implied right of public access.

Common sense should prevail of course. In this part of the world anyone who leaves a rare car on the street would need his head read....

 

[jon0844]

What, so terrorism didn't exist prior to 2001?

In the IRA days, train stations were being targeted more than now (7/7 excepted).

Personally, I wouldn't be worried about anyone obviously out taking photos of trains (how many people are aiming their cameras at CCTV installations?). And a terrorist using a (D)SLR? Unlikely.. more likely a covert camera or trying to look like a tourist. If I was doing any sort of recon for this purpose, I'd being along someone with me and we'd look like it was a day out - posing for photos etc. There would be a near 0% chance of being stopped if you did this.

The people who question you obviously like the feeling of power. I was stopped by a lady taking a photo of a Heathrow Express train - and the reason I was doing it was because I, like many other journalists, had been invited by HEX to go there and preview their new onboard Wi-Fi service.

When I showed her my press card, she went off - to get someone else who came back and assumed I was a police officer!! I pointed out that I'd never said I was a police officer (does journalist sound similar?) and showed my badge again.

Luckily these people had gone by the time the rest of the press had arrived to take one of the trains to Heathrow and use the service.

The funny thing was that I knew I was totally in the right (I'd been given permission in advance) but you could see that these people were looking at each other and wondering what they could do besides leaving me be!

My other experience was a PCSO giving me hassle, until a 'proper' officer told her to go away and apologised to me. This was when I'd taken a photo that wasn't even ON railway property - but had the station building in it (and in the corner, the PCSO that took offence).

 

[Ferret]

Lets say there is a rare car on your street and a car enthusiast wants to take a picture of it from inside your front garden (private property).

Do you not think it would be courtious for the person taking the photo to let you know what he was doing?

This country has a far bigger problem with being curtious than a lack of common sense.

No disrespect intended but I'm tired to the back teeth of hearing this 'railway stations are private property' argument as justification for the behaviour of staff. Indeed they are private in law, but all the TOCs and NR have made it perfectly clear that enthusiasts are welcome at stations to pursue the legitimate activity of photography.

If anything is discourteous, it's the idiotic hounding of enthusiasts, done in the name of security but in reality achieving precisely nothing.

 

[ukrob]

No disrespect intended but I'm tired to the back teeth of hearing this 'railway stations are private property' argument as justification for the behaviour of staff. Indeed they are private in law, but all the TOCs and NR have made it perfectly clear that enthusiasts are welcome at stations to pursue the legitimate activity of photography.

If anything is discourteous, it's the idiotic hounding of enthusiasts, done in the name of security but in reality achieving precisely nothing.

If you read my post again, it had nothing whatsoever to do with justifying station staff behaviour.

 

[anthony263]

As i said before i always speak to a member of staff if i visit a station however on this occasion i was just transfering fron one train to another which was on the opposite platform and funny how the other train staff there didnt really take any notice but this staff member was bored, however probably didnt expect me to have the nerve to argue back.

I visited London Bridge and Waterloo East not long after and i had a enjoyable time . i spoke to a member of staff at each of the station's who kindly told me to carry on and just not to use a tripod, go over the yellow line etc.

I am not having a go at railway staff, however i would like to be treated with respect when i visit any station.

 

[Mintona]

One day someone will be taking photos but no-one will say or do anything. They will then return and blow the place up.

 

[LilLoaf]

One day someone will be taking photos but no-one will say or do anything. They will then return and blow the place up.

Oh don't be so daft about things. Thats just going completly over the top. If they want to do that a camera aint going to be make a differance. The contents of the suitcase might like. Are you saying we should search bags like at airports. Sadly though i see that happening some day, some day soon.

 

[EM2]

...Are you saying we should search bags like at airports. Sadly though i see that happening some day, some day soon.

You mean like they already do on Eurostar? Or at Left Luggage offices at major stations?

 

[ukrob]

One day someone will be taking photos but no-one will say or do anything. They will then return and blow the place up.

Not being able to take a photograph is not going to put off a bomber.

 

[snuk]

But what happens if you're changing from one train to another, and want to take a quick snap of one? Do you have to go and 'sign in' then?

That's what I was wondering. I'd just left my Pendolino at New Street and wanted to take a picture before he left. Would I have to report to reception first? I just discreetly took a couple of photos anyway making sure my flash was disabled and making sure I didn't get in anyone's way or cause any risk - I was more than happy to have a chat with any member of staff who objected.

Steve.

 

[LilLoaf]

You mean like they already do on Eurostar? Or at Left Luggage offices at major stations?

yep but at all stations

 

[ukrob]

yep but at all stations

Not much point unless every single station is done 24/7 luckily.

 

[Tom B]

The stupid thing was, if a terrorist wanted to take photos he's just wander along, sign in, and wander along snapping away...

 

[Ferret]

One day someone will be taking photos but no-one will say or do anything. They will then return and blow the place up.

Total bollards. A terrorist does not need to take a photo to plan out a terrorist attack. That kind of comment is typical of the counter-productive paranoia that is far too evident these days
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you read my post again, it had nothing whatsoever to do with justifying station staff behaviour.

Then in a thread about jobsworth staff, precisely what point were you trying to make?

 

[ukrob]

Then in a thread about jobsworth staff, precisely what point were you trying to make?

Try reading it in the context it was with written with the post it was quoting Mr Forum Police. :roll: