Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[sw1ller]

So those new stations - is this all of them?

- Bow Street (Cambrian) - 2020
- Crwys Road (Rhymney/Coryton) - 2022
- Loudoun Square (Cardiff Bay) - 2023
- The Flourish (Cardiff Bay) - 2023
- Llanwern (SWML)- date tbc
- Cardiff Parkway (SWML)- date tbc
- Miskin (SWML)- date tbc
- Gabalfa (Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr)- date tbc
- Treforest Estate/Nantgarw (Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr) - date tbc

and the closing stations:

- Cardiff Bay - 2023
- Treforest Estate - date tbc

From what I’ve read, yes.

I see absolutely no mention of the new Deeside parkway station anywhere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Might be funding too.
The initial service to Chester is funded from the Liverpool City Region deal - ie English money.
incidentally, Jo Johnson has welcomed the new franchise so it looks like both governments have buried the disputes hatchet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s a shame there won’t be extra services between Chester and New Street via Stafford...

I believe, much as I would support such a service, that until HS2 there aren't paths.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Some artist impressions of new-build long-distance rolling stock include end-gangways. This is probably better than 4-car units, as you won't be needing 4 carriages' capacity over the whole route from Manchester to Milford.

Most of the talk about proposed services seems to be happening over other other thread.

Another snippet i picked up

A first-class service from Swansea to Manchester from 2024- suggests that portion working for West Wales will be the norm with a Standard class only DMU joining up with detached DMU with 1st class section at Swansea.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

I'm not sure if this is the best thread as it's partly a rolling stock query, but also about proposed services.

From http://tfw.gov.wales/what's-happening-wales-borders :
'Introduce new two and three-car new diesel multiple units (DMUs) for the Milford Haven to Manchester service by 2023.'

Surely it would have been better to replace the 2 & 3 car class 175 with all 3/4 car to increase capacity between Manchester and Cardiff/South Wales. Does anyone know if they plan to double the 2 cars?

Although I do note they plan to introduce Liverpool to Cardiff every two hours (is this in addition to the Holyhead - Cardiff ) as this would also improve the service between Shrewsbury and Cardiff (I think this may have been mentioned as an extra too in the Annex document previously added on here, so I'm a bit confused over what the final service plan/capacity will be)

Edit:

I think the main part which is confusing is from 2022 there will be a:
'New service 0.5tph Cardiff - Liverpool,
0.5tph Shrewsbury – Cardiff' on the 'Cardiff Central – Liverpool via
Wrexham General' route.

So does this mean the 0.5tph Shrewsbury – Cardiff is just the current Holyhead to Cardiff or it a new service in which case would there be 2.5tph Shrewsbury to Cardiff?

Looks like 2.5 trains a hour between Shrewsbury and Cardiff with these service pattern as follows:

1 tph Manchester - Carmathen/Milford Haven (semi fast)
1 tp2h Holyhead - Cardiff (Non stop between Shrewsbury - Newport or a call at Hereford)
1 tp2h Shrewsbury - Cardiff (all stations between Shrewsbury and Newport)
1 tp2h Liverpool - Cardiff (all stations between Shrewsbury and Newport)

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm not sure if this is the best thread as it's partly a rolling stock query, but also about proposed services.

From http://tfw.gov.wales/what's-happening-wales-borders :
'Introduce new two and three-car new diesel multiple units (DMUs) for the Milford Haven to Manchester service by 2023.'

Surely it would have been better to replace the 2 & 3 car class 175 with all 3/4 car to increase capacity between Manchester and Cardiff/South Wales. Does anyone know if they plan to double the 2 cars?

Although I do note they plan to introduce Liverpool to Cardiff every two hours (is this in addition to the Holyhead - Cardiff ) as this would also improve the service between Shrewsbury and Cardiff (I think this may have been mentioned as an extra too in the Annex document previously added on here, so I'm a bit confused over what the final service plan/capacity will be)

Edit:

I think the main part which is confusing is from 2022 there will be a:
'New service 0.5tph Cardiff - Liverpool,
0.5tph Shrewsbury – Cardiff' on the 'Cardiff Central – Liverpool via
Wrexham General' route.

So does this mean the 0.5tph Shrewsbury – Cardiff is just the current Holyhead to Cardiff or it a new service in which case would there be 2.5tph Shrewsbury to Cardiff?

Marches Services (Newport to Shrewsbury) are as follows

0.5 tph Cardiff to Holyhead 3 of which will be LHCS MK 4 sets and the other 5 DMU worked.
0.5 tph Cardiff to Liverpool via Wrexham and Halton Curve - DMU's
1 tph (West Wales) to Manchester.

Shrewsbury to Chester will be 2 tph

0.5 tph Cardiff to Holyhead 3 of which will be LHCS MK 4 sets and the other 5 DMU worked.
0.5 tph Cardiff to Liverpool via Wrexham and Halton Curve - DMU's
0.5 tph Shrewsbury to Liverpool via Wrexham and Halton Curve - DMU's
0.5 tph BHM INTL to Holyhead (?)

North Wales Coast (Chester westwards) will be ( 3 tph)

0.5 tph Cardiff to Holyhead 3 of which will be LHCS MK 4 sets and the other 5 DMU worked.
0.5 tph BHM INTL to Holyhead (?)
1 tph Bangor to Manchester Airport
1 tph Llandudno to Liverpool.

 

[backontrack]

From what I’ve read, yes.

I see absolutely no mention of the new Deeside parkway station anywhere.

What about Caerleon? Is that one dead in the water?

 

[krus_aragon]

North Wales Coast (Chester westwards) will be ( 3 tph)

0.5 tph Cardiff to Holyhead 3 of which will be LHCS MK 4 sets and the other 5 DMU worked.
0.5 tph BHM INTL to Holyhead (?)
1 tph Bangor to Manchester Airport
1 tph Llandudno to Liverpool.

I suspect that the 0.5 tph BHM-HHD will evaporate, with the Cambrian Hourlies taking it's Shrewsbury-Birmingham portion and the Liverpool-Shrewsbury taking the Chester-Shrewsbury part. Otherwise there'd be 2tph each way between Chester and Wrexham, which exceeds the current (improved) infrastructure capacity, IIRC. We've heard a lot about how it was down-scoped from 2tph to 1.5tph, and the grumbling about the unaffordability of 2tph. (And this portion is still maintained by Network Rail, unlike the Metro Valleys.)

 

[backontrack]

I suspect that the 0.5 tph BHM-HHD will evaporate, with the Cambrian Hourlies taking it's Shrewsbury-Birmingham portion and the Liverpool-Shrewsbury taking the Chester-Shrewsbury part.

Perhaps the Holyhead-Birmingham service might be routed via Crewe and Stafford? Big if true. If not, then I imagine it will be the Manchester service.

 

[tbtc]

I suspect that the 0.5 tph BHM-HHD will evaporate, with the Cambrian Hourlies taking it's Shrewsbury-Birmingham portion and the Liverpool-Shrewsbury taking the Chester-Shrewsbury part

That's the way that I'd look at it - call my suspicious, but since there's little about Birmingham in what I've read, and the Cambrian will be a regular hourly service, the direct service from Birmingham could well be a casualty.

That said, it looks like a generally good set of changes overall - about time Liverpool got direct services to Wales - I'm cautiously optimistic about this new TOC.

That said, given the problems getting the WMT service from (Walsall) Birmingham - Wolverhampton service extended to Stoke/ Crewe, I'm not sure that there'll be paths for Welsh services from Birmingham to Stafford (and on to Crewe/ Llandudno Junction etc) - especially given speed differentials.

 

[nedchester]

I suspect that the 0.5 tph BHM-HHD will evaporate, with the Cambrian Hourlies taking it's Shrewsbury-Birmingham portion and the Liverpool-Shrewsbury taking the Chester-Shrewsbury part. Otherwise there'd be 2tph each way between Chester and Wrexham, which exceeds the current (improved) infrastructure capacity, IIRC. We've heard a lot about how it was down-scoped from 2tph to 1.5tph, and the grumbling about the unaffordability of 2tph. (And this portion is still maintained by Network Rail, unlike the Metro Valleys.)

You can get 2tph between Chester and Wrexham under the current infrastructure now that doubling between Saltney Jn and Rossett Jn has been completed.

Therefore, both Liverpool to Shrewsbury / Cardiff and the Holyhead to Birmingham services and v.v. can run.

 

[krus_aragon]

You can get 2tph between Chester and Wrexham under the current infrastructure now that doubling between Saltney Jn and Rossett Jn has been completed.

Therefore, both Liverpool to Shrewsbury / Cardiff and the Holyhead to Birmingham services and v.v. can run.

I'll consider myself corrected then: I thought that while the work originally targeted 2tph, it had since been downscoped by Network Rail to 1.5tph.

(If so, and the Holyhead-Birmingham does survive, that would allay my fears of Bangor-Holyhead dropping to 1tp2h, with associated chaos with the ferries.)

 

[B&I]

From what I’ve read, yes.

I see absolutely no mention of the new Deeside parkway station anywhere.

Perhaps, if Merseyrail's bi-mode battery trains prove to be a success, Bidston-Wrexham will be handed over to Merseyrail, and they'll be left to arrange new stations (hopefully further up the Wirral, as well as Deeside).

 

[krus_aragon]

You can get 2tph between Chester and Wrexham under the current infrastructure now that doubling between Saltney Jn and Rossett Jn has been completed.

Therefore, both Liverpool to Shrewsbury / Cardiff and the Holyhead to Birmingham services and v.v. can run.

Thanks for the correction. I knew 2tph had been the original target for that section, but thought Network Rail had down-scoped it to 1.5tph due to rising costs. (With all the new announcements today, my memory is running at full tilt trying to keep up.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another snippet i picked up

A first-class service from Swansea to Manchester from 2024- suggests that portion working for West Wales will be the norm with a Standard class only DMU joining up with detached DMU with 1st class section at Swansea.

There is I suppose a distinct possibility that of the long-distance CAF fleet the 3-car sets will have 1st and the 2-car sets not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps, if Merseyrail's bi-mode battery trains prove to be a success, Bidston-Wrexham will be handed over to Merseyrail, and they'll be left to arrange new stations (hopefully further up the Wirral, as well as Deeside).

A long term view that that might happen is a very good reason for ordering limited-life new stock i.e. 230s, same as the plan for the Marston Vale basically being to use them for 10 years then replace with whatever EWR ends up using.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There is I suppose a distinct possibility that of the long-distance CAF fleet the 3-car sets will have 1st and the 2-car sets not.

There's a follow on batch of around 20/25 long distance and rural DMU vehcicle's due to enter service in 2024 Centre Cars with First Class?

 

[Chester1]

Thanks for the correction. I knew 2tph had been the original target for that section, but thought Network Rail had down-scoped it to 1.5tph due to rising costs. (With all the new announcements today, my memory is running at full tilt trying to keep up.)

Its a rather awkward 2tph capacity. The single section has been reduced from 9 to 5.5 miles which is still difficult to reliably timetable 2tph and freight uses the route too. Had the most southern 2 miles of the single track section been doubled then the line could have theoretically supported more than 2tph but that was the plan. I still think the Birmingham service is being scrapped, it would have been mentioned otherwise.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Apologies if i have missed a post but it doesnt seem clear which lines are going trams and which aren't?

 

[krus_aragon]

Apologies if i have missed a post but it doesnt seem clear which lines are going trams and which aren't?

As I read it, Queen Street to Pontypridd and beyond (via Radyr and City Line) and Queen Street to Cardiff Bay are going to be tram-trains. Rhymney to Penarth, Barry and Bridgend will remain as regular trains.

 

[nedchester]

Its a rather awkward 2tph capacity. The single section has been reduced from 9 to 5.5 miles which is still difficult to reliably timetable 2tph and freight uses the route too. Had the most southern 2 miles of the single track section been doubled then the line could have theoretically supported more than 2tph but that was the plan. I still think the Birmingham service is being scrapped, it would have been mentioned otherwise.

Or missed out in error...…….after all the whole point in doubling the section they did would be to increase capacity.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Or missed out in error...…….after all the whole point in doubling the section they did would be to increase capacity.

I agree it is likely to be an error as there's mention of the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury extras but not through to Birmingham and can't see them reducing Birmingham to every other hour.

Also Holyhead would only get 1 train every two hours and would the fast/express stop at the request stops on Anglesey (I could be completely wrong)

So I think amongst all the improvements they've forgotten to mention that Birmingham to holyhead is staying

 

[allaction]

Absolutely no mention (that I can see) about services to Pembroke Dock (Pembrokeshire’s most-used rail line...)

Has anyone spotted anything?

 

[sw1ller]

Is it possible the Birmingham Holyhead is routed via Stafford. I know everyone’s saying there’s simply no available paths.... but could it be the case?? If the welsh government pay enough for a path, I’m sure they can find space.

 

[krus_aragon]

Is it possible the Birmingham Holyhead is routed via Stafford. I know everyone’s saying there’s simply no available paths.... but could it be the case?? If the welsh government pay enough for a path, I’m sure they can find space.

My understanding (from other members of this forum) is that Virgin's VHF timetable (Euston to Scotland via Birmingham) ate them all up. You'll have to pay another service (provider) to be redirected if you're going to force your way in through Stafford.

 

[sw1ller]

Fair enough, how are they going to improve the times from Cardiff-Holyhead then?? Simply missing out more stops is hardly an improvement. I figured if this went via Stafford and brum, it would be a way of improving the times.

 

[Envoy]

Fair enough, how are they going to improve the times from Cardiff-Holyhead then?? Simply missing out more stops is hardly an improvement. I figured if this went via Stafford and brum, it would be a way of improving the times.

It is a longer route via Stafford & Brum. The Marches line has also had speed improvements between Shrewsbury & Chirk.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Fair enough, how are they going to improve the times from Cardiff-Holyhead then?? Simply missing out more stops is hardly an improvement. I figured if this went via Stafford and brum, it would be a way of improving the times.

Well, The evening Gerald is already around 15 minutes faster as of last month, so I presume there will be a similar acceleration to other services. The redoubling (now partial) from Chester to Wrexham was mooted to take 15 minutes off the journey, and there have been line speed increases further south as well, also I think along the coast.

 

[krus_aragon]

Fair enough, how are they going to improve the times from Cardiff-Holyhead then?? Simply missing out more stops is hardly an improvement. I figured if this went via Stafford and brum, it would be a way of improving the times.

Yes, it's by dropping stops. There's a new Liverpool-Cardiff 0.5tph on the horizon, and a further 0.5tph Shrewsbury to Cardiff. By shifting the smaller stops (Church Stretton, Craven Arms, etc.) onto these new services, they can speed up the Cardiff-Holyhead service, and also (optionally) increase the service frequency at some of the dropped stations.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

First impressions:
We're going to have to wait quite a while for some of these new services.
2tph Wrexham-Bidston is not till 2021.

158s, and presumably 175s, stay around until 2022/23, so the new CAF? DMUs are not coming quickly.​

Chester station upgrade (whatever that is) is not till 2028!
LHCS is 3tpd Holyhead-Cardiff, so not Manchester-Holyhead or Manchester-Cardiff
2-car DMUs on Milford Haven-Manchester and elsewhere is not an upgrade.
In fact why are we persisting with 2-car trains with poor per-vehicle economics?
And personally I prefer to see the driver in a proper cab and not a broom cupboard for a 200+ mile journey.
The changes in fares for under 11s and 16-18s presumably is on Welsh-only routes (would be entertaining on shared English routes otherwise).
How will that work with other operators within Wales (eg ICGW, ICWC/WCP)?
Nothing much said about services in England (eg to Manchester/Birmingham airports, or to Bristol).
There's a danger of the 60mph D-Train units clogging up the 90mph main lines while working to/from their designated lines (eg Chester-Crewe shuttle) - that would be unwelcome.

I have yet to discover how the franchise is being contracted.
All the announcements talk about "we", but it's not clear who "we" is - TfW or KeolisAmey.
This is now on the KeolisAmey web site: http://www.keolisamey.cymru/news-an...es-and-borders-network-and-south-wales-metro/

KEOLISAMEY today (June 4) unveiled bold plans for the Wales and Borders rail network and the development of the South Wales Metro working in partnership with Transport for Wales (TfW). £1.9billion, from a range of sources, including the Welsh Government will be invested to achieve these plans

I can't see anything about rolling stock contracts, or depot policy (aside from Machynlleth).
In any case the Metro vehicle spec is apparently not finalised, so early orders are unlikely.
The KA contract and handover phase from ATW starts today.
2tph Chester-Wrexham is probably feasible with the reduced upgrade, but not at all clockface hours. The services might be imbalanced as a result.

The improvements and general ambition are to be welcomed, especially after the ATW straightjacket, but I'm less impressed the more I read.
I haven't seen anything on branding, apart from the colour scheme and Metro logos which look fine.
A lot of Arriva green (and even some FNW green and FirstGroup lilac) will have to be replaced!
What will be plastered on the trains outside the Metro area?