Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[tbtc]

Generally a good deal, stock wise - they've managed to promise so many good things that the 230s and 769s are generally going under the radar, as people get excited with the brand new trains.

It looks right by looking at the document about proposed services levels. it works out that the current Holyhead - Cardiff service will be limited stop between Shrewsbury and Newport either that's non stop or a call at Hereford?

It seems daft to me to skip Hereford - but I wouldn't be surprised (the existing WAG Express already does?).

And as I've suggested up-thread, Manchester to Carmarthen/Milford is such a long journey (6 hours end-to-end) that while you may be going through Cardiff at rush hour, it'll be off-peak elsewhere on the route, so with a fixed formation you'll have capacity in the wrong place at the wrong time. 2 carriages will do for Cardiff-Carmarthen at 2pm on a Wednesday lunchtime, but probably not for Crewe-Manchester at 0830 in the morning. (These two services are currently operated by the same diagram.)

This would have been a great opportunity to cut the through service into something more makeable and reliable - sadly one not taken though.

(there'll be a handful of people doing end-to-end journeys, but then there were a handful of people doing end-to-end journeys back in the day when Milford Haven etc had through services to Birmingham and people seemed to cope with that being withdrawn as a through service)

I think Northern have been very foolish in specifying 2-car units without gangways which will mostly work paired up

Agreed - the deal that Northern have signed up to until 2025 looks pretty poor when you compare it to subsequent arrangements - headline figures bumped up by ordering lots of short DMUs but pretty basic compared to this (superior) Welsh one.

I'm not convinced at the idea of 175s coming to Northern though - there are already going to be 158/ 170/ 185/ 195s for longer distance faster services (some of which have two/three coach variants) - introducing a fifth type of DMU suitable for such services is just going to make things even more complicated (esp with two/three coach versions).

the Mk4 service is little more than a token gesture

True - IMHO its a shame that they are continuing with the focus on this as the "flagship" route - I understand the politics, but as a railway enthusiast I'd rather that, if they were going to introduce Mk4s they upgraded the (Swansea) Cardiff - Manchester service instead. Hey, politics...

if the DMU's are to be standard 195's as per the image there be one particular poster along shortly to express disgust about using suburban style doors on longer distance services

I also recall talk of West Midlands Trains wanting to run more of the Shrewsbury-Birmingham services in the future

The path is there at peak times - WMT run hourly to Shrewsbury off-peak but have a second service at rush hour - so AIUI the plan is just to run this second service through the day - it wouldn't impact on the W&B services.

 

[Envoy]

Why order 2 & 3 car DMU’s for the Milford to Manchester services when that is what we have already - and they cannot cope? Perhaps they are going to run as combined units (with a through gangway) on the busier sections? Possibly they could split/combine at Whitland to form an hourly service on the Milford line as well as that to Pembroke? That being so, they could make one end streamlined for fast running with the 'gangway end' only used when on the western branches?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why order 2 & 3 car DMU’s for the Milford to Manchester services when that is what we have already - and they cannot cope? Perhaps they are going to run as combined units (with a through gangway) on the busier sections? Possibly they could split/combine at Whitland to form an hourly service on the Milford line as well as that to Pembroke? That being so, they could make one end streamlined for fast running with the 'gangway end' only used when on the western branches?

There are two big operational advantages in this case - gangways and doors at thirds (the latter allegedly being required if they wish to serve the Castlefield corridor).

 

[swt_passenger]

No open bidding or procurement then?

Not required for a franchisee ordering its own stock..

 

[Domh245]

That being so, they could make one end streamlined for fast running with the 'gangway end' only used when on the western branches?

Not a great idea because all it takes is one train to be turned, or the portions arriving out of sequence, and you can't couple them (or at least have them coupled properly with gangways)

 

[Mikey C]

Any idea what will haul the Mk 4s, the existing 67s or something newer/more economical like the 68s?

 

[headshot119]

It seems daft to me to skip Hereford - but I wouldn't be surprised (the existing WAG Express already does?).

The WAG does call at Hereford in both directions. The so called WAG 2 (1V93 0830 Llandudno - Cardiff) doesn't call at Hereford, but there is no northbound working.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Not required for a franchisee ordering its own stock..

I'm sure I read in the past that the Welsh Government wanted to own rolling stock going forward (presumably through TfW) plus this is surely a WG contract not a Keolis-Amey one?

 

[krus_aragon]

Generally a good deal, stock wise - they've managed to promise so many good things that the 230s and 769s are generally going under the radar, as people get excited with the brand new trains.

It seems daft to me to skip Hereford - but I wouldn't be surprised (the existing WAG Express already does?).

The Express has in the past skipped Hereford (or rather trundled through slowly) but it currently stops there. As stated, a non-clockface Llandudno-Cardiff service (0830 ex-Llandudno) is the only current service to skip Hereford, running fast Shrewsbury to Newport.

The path is there at peak times - WMT run hourly to Shrewsbury off-peak but have a second service at rush hour - so AIUI the plan is just to run this second service through the day - it wouldn't impact on the W&B services.

Thanks.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure I read in the past that the Welsh Government wanted to own rolling stock going forward (presumably through TfW) plus this is surely a WG contract not a Keolis-Amey one?

No idea really, haven't been following the saga.

 

[krus_aragon]

Why order 2 & 3 car DMU’s for the Milford to Manchester services when that is what we have already - and they cannot cope? Perhaps they are going to run as combined units (with a through gangway) on the busier sections? Possibly they could split/combine at Whitland to form an hourly service on the Milford line as well as that to Pembroke? That being so, they could make one end streamlined for fast running with the 'gangway end' only used when on the western branches?

Gareth Marston's reading of the tea leaves on this page suggests gangwayed units splitting at Swansea, with first class provided on the Manchester-Swansea unit. The standard-class-only unit seems to run to Carmarthen, with extensions to Milford every other hour as at present.

 

[47802]

Any idea what will haul the Mk 4s, the existing 67s or something newer/more economical like the 68s?

Perhaps neither there is also possibly the option of modified HST power cars that' have allegedly already been looked at for MML. Pity they aren't taking around 6 sets to also work a few of the busiest Manchester services as well.

 

[tbtc]

The WAG does call at Hereford in both directions. The so called WAG 2 (1V93 0830 Llandudno - Cardiff) doesn't call at Hereford, but there is no northbound working.

The Express has in the past skipped Hereford (or rather trundled through slowly) but it currently stops there. As stated, a non-clockface Llandudno-Cardiff service (0830 ex-Llandudno) is the only current service to skip Hereford, running fast Shrewsbury to Newport

Thanks both for clarification

Gareth Marston's reading of the tea leaves on this page suggests gangwayed units splitting at Swansea, with first class provided on the Manchester-Swansea unit. The standard-class-only unit seems to run to Carmarthen, with extensions to Milford every other hour as at present.

If that's what happens (and, I appreciate that there's a lot of tea leaves to settle before we can be certain) then that would make sense - Manchester - Milford Haven is a route with lots of different demands on it, but if we can have longer trains on the busiest sections then I'm in favour.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thanks both for clarification



If that's what happens (and, I appreciate that there's a lot of tea leaves to settle before we can be certain) then that would make sense - Manchester - Milford Haven is a route with lots of different demands on it, but if we can have longer trains on the busiest sections then I'm in favour.

There's a follow on batch of 20/25 long distance & rural DMU's for entry to service in 2024 coinciding with First Class to Swansea- center cars with 1st class possibly?

 

[daikilo]

There is a visual of a 4-car (+power plug) Stadler bi-mode in TfW colours, any idea where they would operate given that the Marshes are supposed to be 2-3 car units?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a visual of a 4-car (+power plug) Stadler bi-mode in TfW colours, any idea where they would operate given that the Marshes are supposed to be 2-3 car units?

Valley Lines (that aren't going to be trams).

 

[OrangeJuice]

So as the class 153's are planned to continue to 2022 are these going to get the full PRM mods to still run as 1 car?

I could see it happening for the heart of Wales line temporarily, but if they run with something else that would be a lot of wasted space/seats.

Or could these run attached to a 150 which has been modified (not sure where this could happen) - I'm not sure what the rules would be for this?

 

[TRAX]

Rail Journal tells us that orders will be placed with CAF (trains built in Newport) for DMUs, and Stadler for tri-mode MUs (diesel/OHE/BE).
There’s also mention of Mk4s, 170, 230s, and 769s (the 769s will disappear after the introduction of the new CAF and Stadler stock).
Out will go the Pacers, 150s, 153s, 158s, and 175s.

 

[KashmireHawker]

One would presume that the 170's will most likely be the cascaded batch from West Midlands Railway, which are due to go when the new CAF & Bombardier stock roll into town?

 

[strettonarms96]

So the second quarter of 2019 for Class 170s according to the appendix? Where do we anticipate these being initially?

 

[D365]

So as the class 153's are planned to continue to 2022 are these going to get the full PRM mods to still run as 1 car?

I'd imagine a derogation would be the likely outcome. Is it known yet whether the incoming two-car Class 170 units will be received from Greater Anglia or from West Midlands Railway?

(the 769s will disappear after the introduction of the new CAF and Stadler stock)

That's if they appear in the first place

 

[507021]

Very interesting times ahead, I really like the choice of new stock too.

 

[507021]

One would presume that the 170's will most likely be the cascaded batch from West Midlands Railway, which are due to go when the new CAF & Bombardier stock roll into town?

It's been suggested by Richard Clinnick the Class 170s will be from Greater Anglia.

 

[Envoy]

So the second quarter of 2019 for Class 170s according to the appendix? Where do we anticipate these being initially?

I think they will go to the Heart of Wales line as 2 car units - which would be really ideal - especially as they have nice big windows for enjoying the scenery.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd imagine a derogation would be the likely outcome

Or running with other stock?

 

[OrangeJuice]

So the second quarter of 2019 for Class 170s according to the appendix? Where do we anticipate these being initially?

The pacers will be going off lease as not PRM compliant, so I assume they will be used to replace 150's which in turn will replace pacers on the valleys. So South-West Wales initially?

Or they could be used on the Heart of Wales as that's where they'll end up

 

[Domh245]

It's been suggested by Richard Clinnick the Class 170s will be from Greater Anglia.

Agreed - given that they are entering service Q4 2019 it can only be from GA - the WMR new fleet won't be in place by then and the dates match up to what is stated in the GA franchise agreement.

 

[krus_aragon]

One would presume that the 170's will most likely be the cascaded batch from West Midlands Railway, which are due to go when the new CAF & Bombardier stock roll into town?

See page 3 here: The 170s are apparently coming and staying, at least as far as 2025. (Likewise the 230s, and Mk4 stock.)

Edit: I misread your post; I thought you were suggesting the 170s would be due to leave Wales when the new (CAF and Stadler) stock arrives there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Which makes me think why didn't they just order 3-car or go all out and order 4-car units anyway.
The tiny amount of time they'll spend operating as 2-car units - may as well just get 4-cars.

I predict that a decision will be made to extend all 195s by one vehicle, but typically it'll be made just as CAF decide to end production of the type or update it in a way that means the new vehicles won't easily be able to "talk" to the originals.

 

[TRAX]

One would presume that the 170's will most likely be the cascaded batch from West Midlands Railway, which are due to go when the new CAF & Bombardier stock roll into town?

No, the 170s will stay beyond the arrival of the new stock.

I think they will go to the Heart of Wales line as 2 car units - which would be really ideal - especially as they have nice big windows for enjoying the scenery.

The 170s are planned for the Heart of Wales Line, yes.
Yes 2 car and refurbished, arriving around 2022.