Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[507021]

So, in summary:

• 12x Mark 4 carriages - North Wales.
• Additional Class 153s (until 2022/23 according to this).
• 4x Class 170/2s - Heart of Wales Line.
• CAF Civity DMUs - Cambrian and North Wales Coast Lines, Cheltenham-Maesteg and Milford Haven-Manchester.
• Class 230s - Borderlands Line.
• Stadler FLIRT tri-modes - South East Wales.
• Stadler (Citylink?) tram-trains - Core Valley Lines.

 

[xc170]

Nothing on increasing Conwy Valley services then, unless I've missed it...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I appreciate it isn't as simple as all that, but given the subsidy required for HOWL, I'd have thought the LO 172s would be a better fit (once fitted with loos) due to being lighter and more economical.

 

[OrangeJuice]

So, in summary:

• 12x Mark 4 carriages - North Wales.
• Additional Class 153s (until 2022/23 according to this).
• 4x Class 170/2s - Heart of Wales Line.
• CAF Civity DMUs - Cambrian and North Wales Coast Lines and Milford Haven-Manchester.
• Class 230s - Borderlands Line.
• Stadler FLIRT tri-modes - South East Wales.
• Stadler (Citylink?) tram-trains - Core Valley Lines.

With the South West Wales and Cheltenham trains also using CAF DMU's, are they going to be a different sub fleet?

 

[Domh245]

With the South West Wales and Cheltenham trains also using CAF DMU's, are they going to be a different sub fleet?

They are certainly being noted differently in the materials we've seen so far, so presumably they will be a different subfleet, although the only difference may be in the passenger saloon.

 

[krus_aragon]

Nothing on increasing Conwy Valley services then, unless I've missed it...

Nope. The only mention of the Conwy Valley is new station buildings at Blaenau Ffestiniog.

 

[krus_aragon]

So, in summary:

• 4x Class 170/2s - Heart of Wales Line.

Only four? I don't remember seeing a number quoted in today's releases. I understand there are 12 170s at Anglia. Are only some being released?

 

[507021]

Only four? I don't remember seeing a number quoted in today's releases. I understand there are 12 170s at Anglia. Are only some being released?

It will be two car units on the Heart of Wales Line, Greater Anglia only have four two car 170s.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Given that the Mark 4s begin to arrive in Q4 2019, and we get 3 tpd loco hauled stock from 2019, it looks like better use is going to be made of the current Mk 3 fleet. There seems to be nothing about the Mk 4 having first class - that will upset the AMs unless that or “business class” is another omission. However, it does seem from Skates’ written statement that the current level of catering will be maintained.

 

[Domh245]

Only four? I don't remember seeing a number quoted in today's releases. I understand there are 12 170s at Anglia. Are only some being released?

Likewise I've not seen any numbers other than the 12 Mk4s - everything else is either conjecture on interpreting that graph. My rough interpretation is that there are 33 class 170 vehicles due, corresponding to 32 available in across the entire GA fleet (ie they're taking on all 32 vehicles from GA's 170 fleet and that extra vehicle is down to interpretation error). They don't have to be limited to just the one route - in the early days I expect they'll be mainly used to release sprinters for PRM and pacer replacement in the valleys.

 

[krus_aragon]

It will be two car units on the Heart of Wales Line, Greater Anglia only have four two car 170s.

Right. Let's re-frame my question then.

Are the 170s coming exclusively for use on the Heart of Wales Line, or might they be used elsewhere too? If intended for (say) West Wales local services, then the three-car units could be transferred as well. That would make a neat little DMU fleet to be based at Landore, and not be as small as micro-fleet at 4 2-car 170s.

Also, the rolling stock diagram on page 3 implies there are significantly more Class 170 vehicles in the new franchise than Mark 4s, and we're told there will be 12 Mark 4s carriages.

 

[xc170]

Nope. The only mention of the Conwy Valley is new station buildings at Blaenau Ffestiniog.

That'll give the locals something new to vandalise.

 

[krus_aragon]

Given that the Mark 4s begin to arrive in Q4 2019, and we get 3 tpd loco hauled stock from 2019, it looks like better use is going to be made of the current Mk 3 fleet. There seems to be nothing about the Mk 4 having first class - that will upset the AMs unless that or “business class” is another omission. I just hope we keep the current high standard of catering for everyone on the evening return from Cardiff.

There'll be First (Business) Class, don't worry. I also hope for the same high standard of catering on the evening return from Bangor!

I may be reading too much into these graphs, but the rolling stock diagram implies all of the Mark 4 fleet coming into service between Q4 2019 and Q1 2020, i.e. the December 2019 timetable change.

 

[59CosG95]

Also, the rolling stock diagram on page 3 implies there are significantly more Class 170 vehicles in the new franchise than Mark 4s, and we're told there will be 12 Mark 4s carriages.

I'm not 100% sure if "12 new Mk4 carriages" includes the DVTs or excludes them...currently each WAG set runs as 4 coaches + a DVT, so that could mean 3 WAG sets, with the 12 passenger coaches being the "12 new Mk4 carriages" mentioned, and the DVTs just there for the push-pull element.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm not 100% sure if "12 new Mk4 carriages" includes the DVTs or excludes them...currently each WAG set runs as 4 coaches + a DVT, so that could mean 3 WAG sets, with the 12 passenger coaches being the "12 new Mk4 carriages" mentioned, and the DVTs just there for the push-pull element.

I expect three sets, as three return services per (week)day will require two sets in service each day, and ideally one spare/maintenance.

The current Mk3 set is three standard class carriages and a First Class/Kitchen/Buffet carriage, so I expect they aren't counting the DVTs. As another poster suggested, they might go top-and-tail with Class 43s!

 

[krus_aragon]

So as the class 153's are planned to continue to 2022 are these going to get the full PRM mods to still run as 1 car?

I could see it happening for the heart of Wales line temporarily, but if they run with something else that would be a lot of wasted space/seats.

Or could these run attached to a 150 which has been modified (not sure where this could happen) - I'm not sure what the rules would be for this?

I've seen nothing today that suggests that they'll be staying as single-car units, only that they'll continue to be part of the franchise until 2023. Given past discussions on the difficulty of fitting them with suitable toilets and keeping a reasonable number of seats, I expect that they'll either be reformed into refurbished two-car sets or permanently attached to some class 150s.

 

[D365]

As another poster suggested, they might go top-and-tail with Class 43s!

Might being the key word there. The Mk4s are traditional LHCS, for which the Class 43s would need an electrical conversion.

I've seen nothing today that suggests that they'll be staying as single-car units, only that they'll continue to be part of the franchise until 2023. Given past discussions on the difficulty of fitting them with suitable toilets and keeping a reasonable number of seats, I expect that they'll either be reformed into refurbished two-car sets or permanently attached to some class 150s.

Or, as I've stated before, they'll get a derogation. I imagine there won't be a great deal of fuss there with a replacement plan in place.

 

[507021]

Right. Let's re-frame my question then.

Are the 170s coming exclusively for use on the Heart of Wales Line, or might they be used elsewhere too? If intended for (say) West Wales local services, then the three-car units could be transferred as well. That would make a neat little DMU fleet to be based at Landore, and not be as small as micro-fleet at 4 2-car 170s.

Also, the rolling stock diagram on page 3 implies there are significantly more Class 170 vehicles in the new franchise than Mark 4s, and we're told there will be 12 Mark 4s carriages.

So far, the only thing I've seen about 170s suggests they're going to be two car and used on the Heart of Wales Line.

If Greater Anglia's three car Class 170s are transferred as well, then that would take the total to 32 Class 170 vehicles (8x 3 car (24 carriages) and 4x 2 car (8 carriages)). Looking at the graph again, I do think it's possible all of Greater Anglia's 170s could be transferring to Wales.

 

[AlexNL]

Not required for a franchisee ordering its own stock..

I'm sure I read in the past that the Welsh Government wanted to own rolling stock going forward (presumably through TfW) plus this is surely a WG contract not a Keolis-Amey one?

No idea really, haven't been following the saga.

It's possible that the trains are being ordered by KeolisAmey and are then sold immediately to the WG, if it has been specified like this in the tender. There are several German concessions where rolling stock orders have been handled in this way.

 

[pemma]

I'm not convinced at the idea of 175s coming to Northern though - there are already going to be 158/ 170/ 185/ 195s for longer distance faster services (some of which have two/three coach variants) - introducing a fifth type of DMU suitable for such services is just going to make things even more complicated (esp with two/three coach versions).

Unless I've missed something TPE are going to keep 29 x 185s and release 22 x 185s and there's no firm plans for what will happen for those 185s, the daily loans of 185s to Northern will certainly not be continuing long term.

Northern need to secure a further 18 x 2 car 170s or equivalent by 2022. On paper the 175s don't easily meet that requirement but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. One option could be the 16 x 170s Northern are getting from Scotrail transfer to another operator (possibly initially as a sublease), the 175/1s could indirectly replace them and the 11 x 2 car 175s could be part of that requirement, maybe with a few extra 195s tagged on to the existing order or maybe even some of the refurbished 158s from ATW would be acceptable to DfT and TfN as 170 equivalents?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Given the objections to temporarily using the Pretendolino carriages on TPE, I can't see any long-term (2-3 years) derogations for 153s happening without a fair bit of controversy. Indeed a recent YouTube video on the HOWL from Geoff Marshall (Broome: the Least Used Station in Shropshire) focused largely on accessibility issues at rural stations.

 

[Domh245]

Northern need to secure a further 18 x 2 car 170s or equivalent by 2022. On paper the 175s don't easily meet that requirement but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. One option could be the 16 x 170s Northern are getting from Scotrail transfer to another operator (possibly initially as a sublease), the 175/1s could indirectly replace them and the 11 x 2 car 175s could be part of that requirement, maybe with a few extra 195s tagged on to the existing order or maybe even some of the refurbished 158s from ATW would be acceptable to DfT and TfN as 170 equivalents?

I'm not so sure, they only have to have the performance and quality of a 170 refurbished in line with the rest of the fleet, so I wouldn't think the quality part would be an issue. The performance aspect might be more of a challenge, but I can't imagine that they accelerate any worse than a 170 - so the only real issue would be with the doors and dwell times, which you should be able to manage your way around.

 

[DelW]

I appreciate it isn't as simple as all that, but given the subsidy required for HOWL, I'd have thought the LO 172s would be a better fit (once fitted with loos) due to being lighter and more economical.

I think they're already planned to go straight into service on West Midlands, as soon as LO can release them. Delays on GOBLIN electrification and emu deliveries mean they're already late for the move.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So far, the only thing I've seen about 170s suggests they're going to be two car and used on the Heart of Wales Line.

If Greater Anglia's three car Class 170s are transferred as well, then that would take the total to 32 Class 170 vehicles (8x 3 car (24 carriages) and 4x 2 car (8 carriages)). Looking at the graph again, I do think it's possible all of Greater Anglia's 170s could be transferring to Wales.

Well theye committed to Pacer withdrawn by end of 19 and we know the GA fleet should be off lease by then. 30 Pacers probably equals about 15 diagrams to cover. Add in the extra 153's and that's how there doing it. The Class 769's are there to allow 150's and 158's to have there prm mods.

The ex GA 170's will essentially mop up anything non long distance away from Cardiff except Borderlands & Cambrian Coast. Pembroke Dock, Fishguard, Crewe to Shrewsbury local and Conwy valley.

 

[pemma]

Given the objections to temporarily using the Pretendolino carriages on TPE, I can't see any long-term (2-3 years) derogations for 153s happening without a fair bit of controversy.

It's not clear how exactly they are going to be used. If they are only used attached to a 150 or 158 then it won't be so much of an issue.

 

[D365]

It's not clear how exactly they are going to be used. If they are only used attached to a 150 or 158 then it won't be so much of an issue.

Is there a need for three car services where the Class 153s currently operate?

 

[Domh245]

Perhaps not, but you put a 2 car something onto a service operated by a 153, and then use that 153 to strengthen a 2 car service to a 3 car service elsewhere.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

170s (17 two-car and 6 three-car) come free from WMT in 2020. as for the LO 172s, they are already booked to come to the West Midlands this winter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might being the key word there. The Mk4s are traditional LHCS, for which the Class 43s would need an electrical conversion.

Though it seems that work is likely to be done for EMT.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Of course one thing no onesmentionedis all these brand new DMU's will need to be replaced by 2040