Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[WelshBluebird]

Politicians can promise a lot, and whilst you might be disappointed with the outcome, most observers are viewing the proposals in a very positive light, and they probably represent a pragmatic and cost effective way of delivering the majority of improvements. I don't think 4th up all the Cardiff valleys was promised, but that is a huge step forward.
As for being unhappy that your comments weren't acted upon, a consultation is just that, and it's unrealistic to expect that your comments will always be listened to. Especially if provision of toilets results in a significant increase in costs. Most journeys are likely to be around no more than 30 minutes, 50 mins max to Cardiff, and if you're desperate you can jump off and rejoin with minimal delay. Toilets would mean heavy rail vehicles, which would increase vehicle costs, energy consumption, weight, wear on the tracks, and add to servicing costs. I can understand the decision to go toiletless light rail vehicles to make 4tph affordable.

Have you actually talked to anyone local?
I have. All of my friends and family from back home (the Rhondda) are totally amazed that in a few years time they won't have toilets on board. All predict chaos when it comes to people needing the facilities either on match days in Cardiff or on last trains in the evening. And all have literally no confidence that station based facilities will be enough (or will actually be open for the entire time services are running).

 

[sw1ller]

Merseyrail have managed it for a long time, it’s only an extra 15 minutes. Can hardly predict chaos. However, Ka need to deliver on their promise of station facilities at regular intervals. With 15 minutes or less between trains I can’t see it being a massive issue at all.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Merseyrail have managed it for a long time, it’s only an extra 15 minutes. Can hardly predict chaos. However, Ka need to deliver on their promise of station facilities at regular intervals. With 15 minutes or less between trains I can’t see it being a massive issue at all.

Put it like this. I (and most of the local friends and family I have talked about it with) have literally no confidence that the talked about measures will be good enough. Let me lay out my concerns (and these have been echoed by the friends and family I mentioned)
1 - I seriously doubt we will have adequate station facilities built in the first place. They'll probably say the facilities at Pontypridd and the Cardiff stations are good enough.
2 - I seriously doubt that these station facilities will be open for the length of the timetable (currently roughly 5.30am to midnight).
3 - I have a belief that they will end up being closed on a regular basis either due to staffing issues or cleaning issues.
4 - I doubt they will be easily accessible on busy match days (where you may not then be able to get the next train or the one after that because of overcrowding, or when you have no time to because of the queuing system used at Cardiff Central after stadium events, where people are held outside the station and not allowed to use the station facilities).
5 - I doubt the previously mentioned rest breaks on last trains will actually happen.

Now, granted, most of that doubt and lack of confidence is due to how the areas services and facilities have been treated in the past. Maybe KA will do something different. But when an area has had station facilities ripped out and downgraded as a matter of policy for the last few decades, you really can't be surprised when people have no confidence in the idea that station facilities will be good enough!

 

[sw1ller]

I can understand your scepticism to be fair. The current regime have done nothing to boost confidence. But I honestly the new franchise will be proactive, given the welsh governments name will basically be plastered all over every train. I really hope you’re wrong with your doubts. But.... well, only time will tell eh.

 

[Cardiff123]

Merseyrail have managed it for a long time, it’s only an extra 15 minutes. Can hardly predict chaos. However, Ka need to deliver on their promise of station facilities at regular intervals. With 15 minutes or less between trains I can’t see it being a massive issue at all.

15 minute intervals to the Heads of the Valleys only applies Monday - Saturday daytime. It definitely won't apply on Sundays, where the promise of 2tph to the HoV isn't coming in until late 2024.
I doubt very much that we'll see 15 minute interval services from first train to last train 6 days a week. If we do I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

15 minute intervals to the Heads of the Valleys only applies Monday - Saturday daytime. It definitely won't apply on Sundays, where the promise of 2tph to the HoV isn't coming in until late 2024.
I doubt very much that we'll see 15 minute interval services from first train to last train 6 days a week. If we do I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Not even Merseyrail has that, the usual approach is 30 minute interval Sunday, before about 7am and after about 7pm on other days, 15 minute interval weekday and Saturday daytime. As the service is conceptually very similar to Merseyrail I'd expect to see a very similar service operate.

 

[JetStream]

Current plan seems to be 2 for Wrexham - Bidston, 1 for Conwy Valley, 1 for Chester - Crewe, and 1 spare. When the CAF units arrive, they'll replace the 230s on the latter two routes and those 230s will double the frequency on Wrexham - Bidston.

As I've said on other threads however, it's hard to picture a train more inappropriate for Chester - Crewe then 230s, so I do have my doubts as to whether that will actually happen or not.

It'd be better off on the Crewe-Shrewsbury service.

 

[ys123]

Wales completes £800m order for 148 new trains (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45197544) says today

Will the new trains
1) Replace the current ATW trains?
2) Increase the frequency of services?
3) Both the above?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Will the new trains
1) Replace the current ATW trains?
2) Increase the frequency of services?
3) Both the above?

by the end of 2022 there will be a total fleet replacement across the board, c90% of it new build.

Some places will see increases in frequency (notably services through Cardiff Queen St) others not i.e West Wales

There will be a new destination of Liverpool via the Halton Curve 1 tph.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yet Rhymney services are going from 1tph up to 4tph and are getting heavy rail Stadler Flirts.

I wonder whether we would now be seeing the entire Valleys network getting tri-mode Stadler Flirts if TfW hadn't written into the ITT (remember we were promised the ITT would be published? ) that the winning bidder must procure vehicles capable of running on-street, to use the pre-specified depot at Taffs Well that Welsh Govt already bought the land for long before the Metro and franchise winner was announced.

A standard electric fleet for all electrified parts ValleyLines network would probably have been sensible if no street-running was intended; but that doesn't necessarily mean FLIRTs which, being fairly complicated tri-mode units, might not have been the cheapest option in that case. But thank you for agreeing with me; they can do heavy-rail 4tph to Rhymney so there is no reason (bar the Taffs Well depot (which presumably will not be equiped to fuel/maintain diesel stock) and possible guaging issues) why they couldn't also do that to Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert.

I find it extraordinary the number of posts such as this example going on about the onboard toilets. Pity the people setting off from Cardiff on the T4 bus to Newtown!

There are currently toilets on all trains working ValleyLines services; therefore removal of toilets is a reduction in the standard of service compared to what is currently available and is hence a cause for complaint which might not arise were this a brand-new light-rail system. However, my concern is not just for the current network but also the prospect of future extensions; most likely from Aberdare to Hirwaun but with my 'ambitious' hat on idealy Aberdare to Swansea via Glyn-Neath and (even more ambitious) Merthyr to Brecon. These extensions would add to the journey time and could potentially run at a reduced frequency compared to the core (even with my ambitious hat, I envisage only 2tph between Aberdare and Swansea and the same to Brecon), increasing the need for an on-board toilet.

As for the T4, I used to be of the opinion that it should not run into Cardiff but terminate at Merthyr and only changed that viewpoint when I discovered it might actually be faster by bus than rail. Even so, at the moment changing on to a train at Merthyr and using the toilet on the way into Cardiff is presumably an option; the Citylinks are likely to change that. Also, a consultation done several years ago (2010 I think) regarding the long-distance bus network that is now TrawsCymru (which includes the T4) found that on-board toilets were a high-priority, along with improved legroom (neither of which happened). Unfortunately, fitting a normal low-floor bus with a toilet would be neigh-on impossible and there doesn't appear to be a sufficient budget to provide both a local bus service and a high-floor express coach. The tighter bends of the road network would also highten the risk off being thrown off the loo while trying to use it too, compared to rail. With a heavy-rail service on the other hand, there is an established solution to the provision of on-board toilets. The best excuse for the lack of toilets on the bus is "it can't be done"; that doesn't apply to rail. So pity the people setting off on the T4 to Newtown indeed; and try and retain the option of a toilet-fitted train at least as far as Merthyr so that they do not need to travel quite so far without access to a toilet. Even better, extend the railway to Brecon (with toilets) so they only need to brave the (toiletless) bus from there to Newtown.

I seriously doubt that these station facilities will be open for the length of the timetable (currently roughly 5.30am to midnight).

Even if they do initially, there is no guarantee that they will do so for long. When I was using the Cambrian line roughly every fortnight the toilets at Aberystwyth were closed after 17:30 Monday-Friday (probably Saturday too), despite trains running at least until 21:30 and buses almost that late, and all day on a Sunday. I thought that was poor, but yesterday I saw that they now have a notice saying they close at 15:30.

 

[Bikeman78]

I find it extraordinary the number of posts such as this example going on about the onboard toilets. Pity the people setting off from Cardiff on the T4 bus to Newtown! Many will prefer to use a land based crapper rather than risk the onboard john being out of use or heavily in demand by other customers. This means not only that upgrading the specification of the railway means less railway can be afforded with the same budget, but the throne (I strongly suspect) will only be used by a minority of the regular customers of the line anyway.

I find it amazing that sockets and Wi-fi are considered more important than a toilet. Personally I'd rather have a flat phone battery than wet trousers! The journey might only be an hour but what happens when a train gets stuck between stations?

 

[Gareth Marston]

A standard electric fleet for all electrified parts ValleyLines network would probably have been sensible if no street-running was intended; but that doesn't necessarily mean FLIRTs which, being fairly complicated tri-mode units, might not have been the cheapest option in that case. But thank you for agreeing with me; they can do heavy-rail 4tph to Rhymney so there is no reason (bar the Taffs Well depot (which presumably will not be equiped to fuel/maintain diesel stock) and possible guaging issues) why they couldn't also do that to Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert.

There are currently toilets on all trains working ValleyLines services; therefore removal of toilets is a reduction in the standard of service compared to what is currently available and is hence a cause for complaint which might not arise were this a brand-new light-rail system. However, my concern is not just for the current network but also the prospect of future extensions; most likely from Aberdare to Hirwaun but with my 'ambitious' hat on idealy Aberdare to Swansea via Glyn-Neath and (even more ambitious) Merthyr to Brecon. These extensions would add to the journey time and could potentially run at a reduced frequency compared to the core (even with my ambitious hat, I envisage only 2tph between Aberdare and Swansea and the same to Brecon), increasing the need for an on-board toilet.

As for the T4, I used to be of the opinion that it should not run into Cardiff but terminate at Merthyr and only changed that viewpoint when I discovered it might actually be faster by bus than rail. Even so, at the moment changing on to a train at Merthyr and using the toilet on the way into Cardiff is presumably an option; the Citylinks are likely to change that. Also, a consultation done several years ago (2010 I think) regarding the long-distance bus network that is now TrawsCymru (which includes the T4) found that on-board toilets were a high-priority, along with improved legroom (neither of which happened). Unfortunately, fitting a normal low-floor bus with a toilet would be neigh-on impossible and there doesn't appear to be a sufficient budget to provide both a local bus service and a high-floor express coach. The tighter bends of the road network would also highten the risk off being thrown off the loo while trying to use it too, compared to rail. With a heavy-rail service on the other hand, there is an established solution to the provision of on-board toilets. The best excuse for the lack of toilets on the bus is "it can't be done"; that doesn't apply to rail. So pity the people setting off on the T4 to Newtown indeed; and try and retain the option of a toilet-fitted train at least as far as Merthyr so that they do not need to travel quite so far without access to a toilet. Even better, extend the railway to Brecon (with toilets) so they only need to brave the (toiletless) bus from there to Newtown.

Even if they do initially, there is no guarantee that they will do so for long. When I was using the Cambrian line roughly every fortnight the toilets at Aberystwyth were closed after 17:30 Monday-Friday (probably Saturday too), despite trains running at least until 21:30 and buses almost that late, and all day on a Sunday. I thought that was poor, but yesterday I saw that they now have a notice saying they close at 15:30.

A lot of stuff possibly for another thread there however as you say the success or otherwise of the made up core valley lines toilet less tram trains is going to be down to staffing levels at the principal stations and infrastructure work. Take Pontypridd - the up the Valleys platform currently has only a waiting shelter with all the old station (considerable) buildings on the Cardiff side.

 

[Cardiff123]

A standard electric fleet for all electrified parts ValleyLines network would probably have been sensible if no street-running was intended; but that doesn't necessarily mean FLIRTs which, being fairly complicated tri-mode units, might not have been the cheapest option in that case. But thank you for agreeing with me; they can do heavy-rail 4tph to Rhymney so there is no reason (bar the Taffs Well depot (which presumably will not be equiped to fuel/maintain diesel stock) and possible guaging issues) why they couldn't also do that to Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert.

The FLIRTS are needed because they are not doing a complete job of electrification.
South of Queen Street nothing at all is being electrified so diesel mode is needed to keep through trains running to Barry, Penarth and Bridgend via the VoG.
North of Queen Street will be discontinuous electrification with some large gaps between the wires. As diesel will be banned north of Queen Street from 2025 batteries are needed.

If the entire Valley lines network (Inc Penarth, Barry & Bridgend via the VoG) was getting continuous wires as proposed in the 2012 HLOS then pure EMUs would have been fine. But that was dead in the water years ago when the 'Core Valley Lines' were suddenly invented by the Welsh Govt and the Professor.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The FLIRTS are needed because they are not doing a complete job of electrification.
South of Queen Street nothing at all is being electrified so diesel mode is needed to keep through trains running to Barry, Penarth and Bridgend via the VoG.
North of Queen Street will be discontinuous electrification with some large gaps between the wires. As diesel will be banned north of Queen Street from 2025 batteries are needed.

If the entire Valley lines network (Inc Penarth, Barry & Bridgend via the VoG) was getting continuous wires as proposed in the 2012 HLOS then pure EMUs would have been fine. But that was dead in the water years ago when the 'Core Valley Lines' were suddenly invented by the Welsh Govt and the Professor.

Actually; diesel is not completely banned north of Queen Street. The ITSFT said that "diesel operation is permitted, as part of a dual traction system"; such a "dual traction system" was required to achieve "at least 50% of CVL passenger capacity miles on zero carbon power" with higher percentages scoring higher. On that basis, bi-mode D-trains (with OHLE and diesel power modes) or class 769s would both have had the potential to meet those particular minimum requirements. There was nothing, except cost, stopping continuous wires across the entire Core Valley Lines. The bidders could presumably also have proposed full wiring to (for example) Aberdare and Treherbert, and wires as far as Caerphilly on the Rhymney route allowing the use of EMUs on the routes fully-wired and bi-modes on the others. So the FLIRTs weren't the only option; any bi-mode would have done and EMUs on selected routes may have been possible although the batteries allowing 100% electric operation on the Core ValleyLines would have earned them some bonus points.

 

[laseandre]

Hey, just wondering, does anyone have that presentation PDF from the start of June? It's been deleted from their website and no cached version is available.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Hey, just wondering, does anyone have that presentation PDF from the start of June? It's been deleted from their website and no cached version is available.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gEgOvffNEbW6XPuWuT6zMcgjY7x44KG_/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[_toommm_]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gEgOvffNEbW6XPuWuT6zMcgjY7x44KG_/view?usp=drivesdk

One major issue with the planned design of the trains (on page number 15) is that 2 out of the 3 trains only have 1 set of doors per carriage on each side! Major bottleneck and I truly hope that isn't the final design of them!

 

[superalbs]

One major issue with the planned design of the trains (on page number 15) is that 2 out of the 3 trains only have 1 set of doors per carriage on each side! Major bottleneck and I truly hope that isn't the final design of them!

Are you aware that they are replacing pacers, which also have similar amounts of doors per side?

In any case, the doors and gangways are wide, and the vehicles are quite short too, so there shouldn't be too many problems at the end of the day.

 

[_toommm_]

Are you aware that they are replacing pacers, which also have similar amounts of doors per side?

In any case, the doors and gangways are wide, and the vehicles are quite short too, so there shouldn't be too many problems at the end of the day.

I am aware yes, and I've grown up around Pacers in South Yorkshire. Still, I feel it will be a major bottleneck, especially around rush hour.

 

[Philip]

175s '107 and '110 were at Chester earlier and both had had their Arriva branding removed.

 

[_toommm_]

175s '107 and '110 were at Chester earlier and both had had their Arriva branding removed.

Couple of 142s and 143s at Pontypridd with the same.

 

[uxm]

Does anyone know what rolling stock MTR we’re gonna use? I know that they wanted to fully electrify the valleys without batteries

 

[uxm]

Some of the trains excluding all pacers may be refurbished into the transport of wales livery

 

[uxm]

They used tram trains on the taff vale routes because of their rapid acceleration and it’s a more integrated network, the stadler flirts are for longer distances and have slower acceleration on electric . They will mainly operate as joined units and form 6 car units. And there are more of them than the old fleets , this will cause a big increase in capacity

 

[Charlie M.]

you don’t need to spread or your messages, and use quotes so it makes sense.

 

[Cardiff123]

All information about rolling stock changes and what will be used where can be found by reading back through this thread and here: http://tfw.gov.wales/journey-begins

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I find it extraordinary the number of posts such as this example going on about the onboard toilets. Pity the people setting off from Cardiff on the T4 bus to Newtown! Many will prefer to use a land based crapper rather than risk the onboard john being out of use or heavily in demand by other customers. This means not only that upgrading the specification of the railway means less railway can be afforded with the same budget, but the throne (I strongly suspect) will only be used by a minority of the regular customers of the line anyway.

In passing, does anybody know if the industry has ballpark costs for the running costs of an onboard bog? There is not only the cleaning and provision of consumables such as bog roll and soap common to a land based khazi (itself more labour intensive due to cubicles being distributed along train rather than in one place like land based WC), but also charging the freshwater tank and discharge of sewerage, different maintenance requirements for vacuum type systems relative to normal flusher, addition of deadweight and loss of revenue earning floorspace in vehicle, not to mention purchase price of a specialised piece of equipment.

Impressive variety of terms for loo in this post. Well played!

 

[js1000]

All information about rolling stock changes and what will be used where can be found by reading back through this thread and here: http://tfw.gov.wales/journey-begins

Average age of the fleet will be down from 25 to 7 years by 2023 - big improvement for Wales. The spare Class 158s & 175s will also be perfect to help solve Northern's diesel problem - two birds on one stone. So no reason to think why this won't work out.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Average age of the fleet will be down from 25 to 7 years by 2023

At a price; at least if we cannot get the issues fixed. -

big improvement for Wales.

Not as things stand; newer isn't always better and the old trains being replaced include not just the awful Pacers and 150s but also the 158s and 175s which, along with the mark 3s, are the best trains in ATW's current fleet. Both 158s and 175s are higher-quality trains than the visualisations suggest the new CAF units will be. The new trains look like they will have huge areas for standing passengers (due to wide doors), ironing board seats, no carpets and no tables. That all needs to change if they are to be a suitable replacement for 158s and 175s. Given that there are currently no timetable improvements planned for the lines west of Swansea I also think that the new franchise should retain either the 158s or the 175s to permit service enhancements.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Average age of the fleet will be down from 25 to 7 years by 2023 - big improvement for Wales. The spare Class 158s & 175s will also be perfect to help solve Northern's diesel problem - two birds on one stone. So no reason to think why this won't work out.

Will they? Would either be considered "equivalent to Class 170" as specified in the vaguely worded Northern franchise arrangement? The end-doors will be an issue on many routes for example.