Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[krus_aragon]

Quoting is not working for me

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[Gareth Marston]

Thanks, I am flushed with pride!

On a serious note, those who read Ian Walmsley's columns in Modern Railways will be familiar with his view that all too often the permanent way engineers offload infrastructure shortcomings onto the rolling stock engineers for them to deal with. The result - more complex, heavier, maintainance intensive train stock. The stellar example of this is the bi-mode units where perceived lack of competence in managing the electrification has required traction engineers to come up with bi-mode trains (he has several more examples).

I don't think the toilet issue is something he has cited but it might be perceived as falling into the category of rolling stock addressing problem that would be better addressed in the fixed infrastructure. Note also Ian was one of the main industry press proponents of light rail for the Valleys system, and light rail conversion pretty much takes the idea of investing in infrastructure specifically to facilitate light, simple, cheap vehicles to the logical conclusion. Putting the toilets landslide is not done on a whim, it is an integral part of the guiding philosophy that makes light rail so successful.

Well they'll be plenty of compare and contrast for the office workers of Cardiff to talk about as they'll be plenty of folk coming in on Flirts, CAF Civitys, Class 800/802's, Class 165/166/170 with onboard toilets.

 

[Cardiff123]

Well they'll be plenty of compare and contrast for the office workers of Cardiff to talk about as they'll be plenty of folk coming in on Flirts, CAF Civitys, Class 800/802's, Class 165/166/170 with onboard toilets.

Along with the toilet-less Citylink metro vehicles.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I fundamentally don't agree with that, though, provided the precise door positioning is done with regard to the bay size. The Class 170 is evidence enough; there are 5 bays between the doors and a few more at the ends. In the nicer layouts, each bay contains either a table or two rows of airline seats, all fully aligned. The Class 185 is similar. The Class 350 would be similar were an extra row not squeezed in in some centre sections.

Yes, you can try and make a reasonable layout with a suburban door layout, but I think the doors on 170s and 185s are quite a bit wider than the doors on 175s. Thus I think that, all other things (window alignment, legroom etc.) being equal a 175 would have slightly more seats than a 185 or 170. The suituation is less clear cut with the class 395 'Javelin' units as they have doors at thirds (or quarters) but they are narrow doors. Then again...

It used to be a problem in the days of pocket sliding doors, where you couldn't have a window in a door's width from the door itself (and it is still a problem in the end-doored Class 800 which has this old-fashioned door setup). With plug doors there is no such constraint.

The 395s use the same (or similar) sliding doors as the 800s. Plug doors are indeed much better and I am very disapointed that the 800s don't have plug-doors. I think future train orders should specify plug doors except for 'inner-suburban'/metro stock (since those 'old-fashioned' sliding doors are supposedly faster than plug doors). The doors (along with the terrible legroom) are one reason why I consider class 150s to be inner-suburban stock. The wide 'at-thirds' version of the sliding doors (as fitted on 150s, 376s and 700s) I call 'metro-sliding' doors for this reason.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Along with the toilet-less Citylink metro vehicles.

Hourly arrivals into Cardiff Central-

CityLinks TrainTrams = 8. 2 each from Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr, Radyr.
Flirts = 22(23). 5 from Vale of Glamorgan, 4 from Penarth, 2 from Coryton, 2 from Caerphilly, 4 from Rhymney, 1 from Cheltenham, 2 from Ebbw Vale, 1 (2?) from Maesteg, 1 from Swansea.

800/802 = 3. 1 from Swansea, 2 from Paddington.
MK4 = 3 per day from Holyhead.

CAF Civity, 2.5. 1 from West Wales, 1 from Machester, 0.5 from Liverpool plus another 5 per day from Holyhead.
170 = 1. 1 from Nottingham
165/166 = 2. 1 from Taunton, 1 from Portsmouth.

CityLinks wll only be 20% of the arrivals into Cardiff Central. The Flirts will be the major class seen with 57.5% of arrivals.

 

[Dai Corner]

Hourly arrivals into Cardiff Central-

CityLinks TrainTrams = 8. 2 each from Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr, Radyr.
Flirts = 22(23). 5 from Vale of Glamorgan, 4 from Penarth, 2 from Coryton, 2 from Caerphilly, 4 from Rhymney, 1 from Cheltenham, 2 from Ebbw Vale, 1 (2?) from Maesteg, 1 from Swansea.

800/802 = 3. 1 from Swansea, 2 from Paddington.
MK4 = 3 per day from Holyhead.

CAF Civity, 2.5. 1 from West Wales, 1 from Machester, 0.5 from Liverpool plus another 5 per day from Holyhead.
170 = 1. 1 from Nottingham
165/166 = 2. 1 from Taunton, 1 from Portsmouth.

CityLinks wll only be 20% of the arrivals into Cardiff Central. The Flirts will be the major class seen with 57.5% of arrivals.

Though the figures for central Cardiff (as opposed to Cardiff Central) would be different with the CityLinks Valleys-Queen Street-Bay?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Though the figures for central Cardiff (as opposed to Cardiff Central) would be different with the CityLinks Valleys-Queen Street-Bay?

Queen St-

CityLinks TrainTrams = 14. 6 each from Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr, 2 from Radyr, 6 from Cardiff Bay.
Flirts = 16. 4 from Vale of Glamorgan, 4 from Penarth, 2 from Coryton, 2 from Caerphilly, 4 from Rhymney.

 

[Along the bay]

Aren't there some heart of Wales trains that run to Cardiff ? Would 170s work those as well.

 

[craigybagel]

Aren't there some heart of Wales trains that run to Cardiff ? Would 170s work those as well.

Nobody knows at present. The HOWL currently interworks with the Crewe - Shrewsbury local and Cardiff - Swansea swanline at different times of the day. All we know at present is that the HOWL proper will use the 2 car 170s. As only 4 of them are coming, there's not that much scope to use them on other routes, especially with the plan for an extra train per day the length of the line from 2022 IIRC. They will be allocated to Canton depot - whether that is just an allocation on paper (the North Wales MKIII set is also allocated there in theory, but in practice rarely stables anywhere other then Crewe) or will see them making regular visits, that remains to be seen. KA have been very quiet on plans for both Swanline and the Crewe - Shrewsbury local.

 

[Along the bay]

Nobody knows at present. The HOWL currently interworks with the Crewe - Shrewsbury local and Cardiff - Swansea swanline at different times of the day. All we know at present is that the HOWL proper will use the 2 car 170s. As only 4 of them are coming, there's not that much scope to use them on other routes, especially with the plan for an extra train per day the length of the line from 2022 IIRC. They will be allocated to Canton depot - whether that is just an allocation on paper (the North Wales MKIII set is also allocated there in theory, but in practice rarely stables anywhere other then Crewe) or will see them making regular visits, that remains to be seen. KA have been very quiet on plans for both Swanline and the Crewe - Shrewsbury local.

Oh right thought they did for some reason

 

[uxm]

Hourly arrivals into Cardiff Central-

CityLinks TrainTrams = 8. 2 each from Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr, Radyr.
Flirts = 22(23). 5 from Vale of Glamorgan, 4 from Penarth, 2 from Coryton, 2 from Caerphilly, 4 from Rhymney, 1 from Cheltenham, 2 from Ebbw Vale, 1 (2?) from Maesteg, 1 from Swansea.

800/802 = 3. 1 from Swansea, 2 from Paddington.
MK4 = 3 per day from Holyhead.

CAF Civity, 2.5. 1 from West Wales, 1 from Machester, 0.5 from Liverpool plus another 5 per day from Holyhead.
170 = 1. 1 from Nottingham
165/166 = 2. 1 from Taunton, 1 from Portsmouth.

CityLinks wll only be 20% of the arrivals into Cardiff Central. The Flirts will be the major class seen with 57.5% of arrivals.

Where did you get this info, is there any chance that I could get info for other stations as well?

 

[uxm]

Though the figures for central Cardiff (as opposed to Cardiff Central) would be different with the CityLinks Valleys-Queen Street-Bay?

Some of the citylinks will run on the city line and loop around, they are retaining the link from the taff valleys to cardiff central.

 

[sw1ller]

Regarding mk4 stock. There’s due to be 3 sets. So would that be 2 to Cardiff one day and 1 the next? Or will the be turned around quick quickly and sent straight back out??

 

[daikilo]

Regarding mk4 stock. There’s due to be 3 sets. So would that be 2 to Cardiff one day and 1 the next? Or will the be turned around quick quickly and sent straight back out??

Seems to be 2 operating 3 single trips each, plus one spare. Of course, there could be 3 diagrams with swaps taking place at Canton.

 

[sw1ller]

Seems to be 2 operating 3 single trips each, plus one spare. Of course, there could be 3 diagrams with swaps taking place at Canton.

Thanks. I understand completely the need for a spare, but I’m not a fan of it in this instance. Seems like wasted stock. If a spare is needed then an extra 3 car CAF unit with first class could be built. Obviously not the same standard but good enough for a replacement.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Where did you get this info, is there any chance that I could get info for other stations as well?

It's all in the public domain on TFW, DFT, KeolisAmeys websites.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Nobody knows at present. The HOWL currently interworks with the Crewe - Shrewsbury local and Cardiff - Swansea swanline at different times of the day. All we know at present is that the HOWL proper will use the 2 car 170s. As only 4 of them are coming, there's not that much scope to use them on other routes, especially with the plan for an extra train per day the length of the line from 2022 IIRC. They will be allocated to Canton depot - whether that is just an allocation on paper (the North Wales MKIII set is also allocated there in theory, but in practice rarely stables anywhere other then Crewe) or will see them making regular visits, that remains to be seen. KA have been very quiet on plans for both Swanline and the Crewe - Shrewsbury local.

Pretty sure we'll not see the 170's north of Shrewsbury. The Crewe to Shrewsbury local could still be integrated with the Aberystwyth only runs on the Cambrian. There's some platform occupancy issues regarding number 4 at Shrewsbury to resolve Northbound. The 3 car 170's by default will do Pembroke Dock and Fishguard you might see 1 or 2 a day reach Cardiffon boat trains.

I take that Swanline will be 1 tph Flirts probably running through to Cheltenham.

 

[craigybagel]

Oh right thought they did for some reason

They do. On a weekday the 0556 from Shrewsbury and 1720 from Crewe (1824 from Shrewsbury) both run through from Swansea to Cardiff. There are no official through workings in the opposite direction however (although the set for the 0934 Swansea - Shrewsbury arrives at Swansea after working the 0714 from Cardiff).

Seems to be 2 operating 3 single trips each, plus one spare. Of course, there could be 3 diagrams with swaps taking place at Canton.

Thanks. I understand completely the need for a spare, but I’m not a fan of it in this instance. Seems like wasted stock. If a spare is needed then an extra 3 car CAF unit with first class could be built. Obviously not the same standard but good enough for a replacement.

Bear in mind the current MKIII set has several spare vehicles sitting in Canton, despite the fact it only does one round trip per day!

One issue that will need resolving though is if as expected it's two sets each doing 1.5 return trips per day, with the 2 sets alternating between stabling in Holyhead and Canton each night, a change to the current crewing arrangements may well need to be made. At present, only Shrewsbury conductors can work LHCS south of Chester. Unless the MKIVs are worked in a drastically different way to the MKIIIs, you need a guard to prep the set - not just a driver. If the set is leaving Cardiff in the morning, then most likely Cardiff depot will need to sign the the stock, which will either mean either dividing the current single link depot into links, or training up about 90 guards. The other alternative would be to keep the set at Canton until the 0920 departure - then there would be enough time for a Shrewsbury guard to work down and get to Canton to prep the set.

Pretty sure we'll not see the 170's north of Shrewsbury. The Crewe to Shrewsbury local could still be integrated with the Aberystwyth only runs on the Cambrian. There's some platform occupancy issues regarding number 4 at Shrewsbury to resolve Northbound. The 3 car 170's by default will do Pembroke Dock and Fishguard you might see 1 or 2 a day reach Cardiffon boat trains.

I take that Swanline will be 1 tph Flirts probably running through to Cheltenham.

That indeed would make more sense for the locals - it would speed up journeys from the Cambrian to London and probably be a more efficient use of stock. But I'm not sure how easy those issues around platform 4 could be fixed.

 

[Along the bay]

Thought it was something like that thanks

 

[krus_aragon]

One issue that will need resolving though is if as expected it's two sets each doing 1.5 return trips per day, with the 2 sets alternating between stabling in Holyhead and Canton each night, a change to the current crewing arrangements may well need to be made. At present, only Shrewsbury conductors can work LHCS south of Chester. Unless the MKIVs are worked in a drastically different way to the MKIIIs, you need a guard to prep the set - not just a driver. If the set is leaving Cardiff in the morning, then most likely Cardiff depot will need to sign the the stock, which will either mean either dividing the current single link depot into links, or training up about 90 guards. The other alternative would be to keep the set at Canton until the 0920 departure - then there would be enough time for a Shrewsbury guard to work down and get to Canton to prep the set.

While you could just about fit in one and a half return journeys starting at 0920 (finishing in Holyhead at midnight) I doubt it'd be the chosen approach: the first two services at least wouldn't have enough business passengers to bother carting a fist class coach and kitchen about.

The catering staff would need rearranging too: since the original service launch the chef and serving staff have worked down in the morning, had the day to themselves, then worked back up in the eveningThat won't work with three services each way, though. I guess either there'll be some overnight stays for chefs, serving staff working trolleys on another service as a positioning move, a lot of cushion time, or some other interesting combination.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The 395s use the same (or similar) sliding doors as the 800s. Plug doors are indeed much better and I am very disapointed that the 800s don't have plug-doors. I think future train orders should specify plug doors except for 'inner-suburban'/metro stock (since those 'old-fashioned' sliding doors are supposedly faster than plug doors). The doors (along with the terrible legroom) are one reason why I consider class 150s to be inner-suburban stock. The wide 'at-thirds' version of the sliding doors (as fitted on 150s, 376s and 700s) I call 'metro-sliding' doors for this reason.

The Shinkansen (of which the 395 and A Train series are based off) seems to do just fine with sliding doors. They're also much better from a maintenance perspective, I understand.

 

[uxm]

Will the citylink trams really boost capacity compared to the pacers? they seem quite short.

 

[Cardiff123]

Will the citylink trams really boost capacity compared to the pacers? they seem quite short.

A '3-car' Citylink 'train-tram' is the same length as a 2 car 150.
The capacity increase is coming from the increased frequency.

 

[uxm]

A '3-car' Citylink 'train-tram' is the same length as a 2 car 150.
The capacity increase is coming from the increased frequency.

Why are they doing this? we need longer trains of course it's better frequency but it still doesn't justify it as there is severe overcrowding on the taff vale lines. Check this video:

 

[Chris192]

Why are they doing this? we need longer trains of course it's better frequency but it still doesn't justify it as there is severe overcrowding on the taff vale lines. Check this video:

I think the idea is that the demand spreads out a bit as the service becomes more turn up and go. So rather than making the trains longer, they’re reducing the wait time between trains (which is still an increase because there are twice the number of trains per hour). Not being able to get on a train because it’s busy is not such a bad prospect if you know there’ll be another one along in about 5 minutes. As far as I’m aware, the trains generally reach capacity south of Ponty, which is where there’ll be 12 trains per hour.

That’s the theory at least. I guess only time will tell if it actually works in practice!

 

[Along the bay]

Isn't that similar to virgin cross-countrys plans for the voyagers ? (Increase the frequency but have short trains)

 

[craigybagel]

While you could just about fit in one and a half return journeys starting at 0920 (finishing in Holyhead at midnight) I doubt it'd be the chosen approach: the first two services at least wouldn't have enough business passengers to bother carting a fist class coach and kitchen about.

The catering staff would need rearranging too: since the original service launch the chef and serving staff have worked down in the morning, had the day to themselves, then worked back up in the eveningThat won't work with three services each way, though. I guess either there'll be some overnight stays for chefs, serving staff working trolleys on another service as a positioning move, a lot of cushion time, or some other interesting combination.

Indeed, there's going to have to be a lot of changes. My first question in my head when I saw the proposals was "how are they going to make that work with the catering staff?". But given the current system is rather labour intensive for what it achieves (like the stock, staff work a very long day but only cover two trains!) change may not be such a bad thing.

A '3-car' Citylink 'train-tram' is the same length as a 2 car 150.
The capacity increase is coming from the increased frequency.

Isn't that similar to virgin cross-countrys plans for the voyagers ? (Increase the frequency but have short trains)

Similar but better. With the citylinks running at 12 trains an hour, twice the frequency of the current service, and with each citylink similar in capacity to a single 150, that would mean that if all citylinks were to be run singly, and all 150s were currently run in pairs, capacity would be broadly the same.
However, someone else on this forum has run the figures and calculated that many of the citylink services will be run as pairs, and at present of course not all services on the Taff Valley run as paired up 150s. (Today for example, of the 6 departures southbound from Pontypridd between 0700-0800, 4 are single 150s and 2 (both from Treherbert) are double 142/3s). This is where your increases in capacity will be. And hopefully, if the figures are wrong this time around we won't have to wait another 15 years to see them get fixed......

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't that similar to virgin cross-countrys plans for the voyagers ? (Increase the frequency but have short trains)

Sort of. The difference being that this is a capacity increase, whereas that was actually a slight decrease.

 

[Gareth Marston]

And hopefully, if the figures are wrong this time around we won't have to wait another 15 years to see them get fixed......

No only do we need a mechanism to change /alter things but we need a culturally mature approach from the Welsh Government/ Transport for Wales toward legitimate criticism. Things will go wrong/be delayed / not pan our as expected however whats needed is that these things are sorted out not the denial/refusal to accept responsibility/blame others that we've seen.

 

[craigybagel]

No only do we need a mechanism to change /alter things but we need a culturally mature approach from the Welsh Government/ Transport for Wales toward legitimate criticism. Things will go wrong/be delayed / not pan our as expected however whats needed is that these things are sorted out not the denial/refusal to accept responsibility/blame others that we've seen.

Indeed - blaming Arriva and/or Westminster for everything that goes wrong into the new franchise will only get them so far.