Labour MP murdered in shooting/stabbing incident

[Muttley]

All you're doing is parroting the right-wing columnists. Talking about the causes of an issue is not "trying to score cheap political points".

I find it really quite disgusting how you're trying to brush what happened to Jo Cox under the carpet, and frankly RichmondCommu is right on.
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Totally irrelevant? If it's about a culture of xenophobia and hatred that drove a mentally ill man to do something, it's not irrelevant at all.

It's telling that it's only a core few on this forum that seem to be repeating this point over and over. Most seem to understand the hypocrisy of trying to shut down a politically inconvenient debate whilst claiming your opponent is scoring cheap political points.

On behalf of West Yorkshire council taxpayers, I'd like to thank you for solving the where's, who's, and why's of this case within minutes.
I bet you're a whizz on the last day of term when you get to take Cluedo in. You'll know who it was, where it was, what the weapon was and how the guilty party votes before a dice is rolled.

 

[TheKnightWho]

On behalf of West Yorkshire council taxpayers, I'd like to thank you for solving the where's, who's, and why's of this case within minutes.
I bet you're a whizz on the last day of term when you get to take Cluedo in. You'll know who it was, where it was, what the weapon was and how the guilty party votes before a dice is rolled.

So we shouldn't ask why until Muttley has declared it acceptable? That didn't stop any of you speculating on past threads when Islamic terrorism occurred, did it? The blind hypocrisy on display from the three of you really is a sight to behold.

Also the sheer ridiculousness of acting as though there is literally no evidence that he had connections to far right groups, despite statements, pictures and even a declared motive at the killing, is truly absurd. Even much of the traditionally right-wing press has called for a good look at what caused this, but that's not good enough for the Brexit fanatics with their silver bullet now in jeopardy.

 

[LateThanNever]

I'm not making political points, cheap or otherwise. My wife's family (who happen to be Asian) have had their property and businesses attacked by Far Right extremists. However of course you don't want to know about that because according to you that amounts to "cheap political points". Perhaps you would rather that attacks on my wife's extended family were ignored? And you do really think I care whether you think "I was doing ok" until I mentioned the reality of Far Right extremists? I'm assuming here that you don't come under almost daily attack because of the colour of your skin? Perhaps you don't think my wife's family are "worthy" of protection from Far Right groups and that they themselves are trying to make political capital out of it? At best you appear to be ignorant of what's really happening in our great country.

You are clearly unaware of how active Far Right extremists are in East Lancs, certain boroughs of East / South East London and certain areas of Essex and North Kent. Not to mention rallies in City's across the country in which they encourage white people to turn against Blacks and Asians. And even if you are aware of this it's very clear to me that you want it all to be brushed under the carpet so to speak.
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So you're suggesting that my wife's family are not under threat when their property and businesses are being attacked by Far Right extremists. They are being attacked because of racial hatred and yet you're encouraging me to pass it off as "hyperbole"???

Far Right extremists are developing their breeding grounds in boroughs of East / South East London and certain areas of Essex / North Kent. I'm afraid they already have power and respect to a certain degree in the areas that I've listed; unless we start to take the threat seriously it will continue to grow and grow.
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Oh please. He knew exactly what he was doing and who to target, or else he would have gone after his next door neighbours. Not to mention his links with overseas Far Right groups. I suspect you would rather prefer to ignore that for fear of it working against the Brexit campaign? And to think that other forum members are being accused of making political capital out of a despicable and wicked act of pure hatred
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Well at least no one could accuse you of being paranoid or anything like that. Heaven know's how you will react if there is a vote to remain in the EU next week. Who will you find to lash out at then?
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So do you condone racial attacks against Blacks and Asians because they happen to be successful? According to you Blacks and Asians who speak out against racially motivated violence are looking to "score cheap political points". You should be ashamed of yourself. Call yourself British???

You have been accused of making cheap political points.
They are not cheap. They are profound.
First Cameron, our Prime Minister, tried to suggest that the then London Mayoral candidate, Sadiq Khan, a former government minister, was at least a closet terrorist.
Our Prime Minister has never apologised.
Then the referendum comes along with a focus on EU foreigners and immigration, with a debate conducted by our politicians - with the help of much of the tablod press - of increasing vitriol and downright demonstrable lies.
To suggest that this is ok because the alleged murderer was of unsound mind - so that's just unlucky - shows a dearth of understanding. These people of unsound mind live in our communities.
If all the talk is how immigration and the EU are responsible for all our ills then, whilst most of us know this is complete rubbish, do not be surprised if those who are not able to think straight take you at your word.
I don't usually agree with bishops but this one has it spot on
"The man charged has now owned in court his far right, nationalist motive: he gave his name as “death to traitors, freedom for Britain”. Although speculation about motive was unhelpful in the early hours after Jo’s death, there was one observation that merited consideration: the political discourse in this country is poisonous – and recognised beyond our borders to be so. To put it bluntly: if the linguistic and cultural pool we swim in is poisoned day after day – with opponents in the Referendum debate being dismissed as dishonest, corrupt, abusable and our European partners being daily written off as corrupt, incompetent and (their real crime) foreign – then we shouldn’t be surprised when some people, for whatever broken and destructive reason, push language to consequent action."
https://nickbaines.wordpress.com/2016/06/18/jo-cox/

 

[Muttley]

So we shouldn't ask why until Muttley has declared it acceptable?

No Terry.
As ever, you're spectacularly wrong, but at least you're consistent.
The forces of law and order will be finding out why, you shouldn't be assuming why.

 

[TheKnightWho]

No Terry.
As ever, you're spectacularly wrong, but at least you're consistent.
The forces of law and order will be finding out why, you shouldn't be assuming why.

I'll make sure to call you out every time any of you comment on a terrorist investigation before its results are out then.

I can't say consistency is your forte, at least. The hilariously disparate double-standards you have really aren't convincing anyone, you know. The way you're all trying to shut down discussion because you don't like the way its going really does demonstrate a commitment to democratic discourse, just like some of the right's outrage over extending the voting deadline 'Democracy when convenient' springs to mind.

 

[Muttley]

I'll make sure to call you out every time any of you comment on a terrorist investigation before its results are out then.

Do you read the stuff you post ?
Look at that quote. Look at it, read it, then think about it.
Now, do you stand by it ?
Are you really going to "call me out" (whatever that means) when somebody else makes a comment on a terrorist investigation ?

I can only conclude that you still think I'm in the government.

And purely for your information, I think you'll find you're more right wing then me. I agree (and voted for) Jeremy Corbyn when he stated he wanted a different way of doing politics, as witnessed by his non confrontational PMQs. Whereas you've aligned yourself with CMD and his love of a slanging match, including his mud slinging.

 

[Gutfright]

And purely for your information, I think you'll find you're more right wing then me. I agree (and voted for) Jeremy Corbyn when he stated he wanted a different way of doing politics, as witnessed by his non confrontational PMQs.

I also voted for Corbyn.

It's really not that rare to find Brexit-supporting Labour voters.

 

[EM2]

The forces of law and order will be finding out why, you shouldn't be assuming why.

I don't see any assumption. I see information posted that is the same as that that has posted elsewhere.

• An eyewitness heard a right-wing slogan shouted at the time.
• It has been confirmed from the accused's own history that he is mentally ill.
• Far-right publications were found at the accused's home.
• Evidence has come to light of his association with Britain First.
• He used the phrase 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' when asked his name in court.

And you missed a very important word in the post that you replied to with your silly Cluedo taunt. It is 'If'.

If it's about a culture of xenophobia and hatred that drove a mentally ill man to do something, it's not irrelevant at all.

If - an element of doubt, something that needs to be proved. Not 'It is'.

 

[Harbornite]

I don't see any assumption. I see information posted that is the same as that that has posted elsewhere.

• An eyewitness heard a right-wing slogan shouted at the time.
• It has been confirmed from the accused's own history that he is mentally ill.
• Far-right publications were found at the accused's home.
• Evidence has come to light of his association with Britain First.
• He used the phrase 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain' when asked his name in court.

And you missed a very important word in the post that you replied to with your silly Cluedo taunt. It is 'If'.

If - an element of doubt, something that needs to be proved. Not 'It is'.

Well said.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Do you read the stuff you post ?
Look at that quote. Look at it, read it, then think about it.
Now, do you stand by it ?
Are you really going to "call me out" (whatever that means) when somebody else makes a comment on a terrorist investigation ?

I can only conclude that you still think I'm in the government.

And purely for your information, I think you'll find you're more right wing then me. I agree (and voted for) Jeremy Corbyn when he stated he wanted a different way of doing politics, as witnessed by his non confrontational PMQs. Whereas you've aligned yourself with CMD and his love of a slanging match, including his mud slinging.

Supporting Jeremy Corbyn does not make you automatically left-wing. I know plenty of people who are pretty sexist, racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic who support him. I also voted for Corbyn, but the idea that being on the same side as Cameron makes me right-wing is as ridiculous as me saying you're on the same side as Nick Griffin so you must be some far-right BNP supporter.

And what is your actual objection? I am calling people here hypocrites for demanding a standard that they never adhere to themselves, because suddenly they're on the other end of the sharp stick of scrutiny that is normally applied to Muslims.

All you seem to be able to do is hide behind this absurd idea that you must be a politician to have your ideas critiqued (a view only you, and you alone, seem to hold), and ridiculous misinterpretations of my comments that make you appear like a blustering, flustered blowhard who doesn't seem used to having his opinions challenged.

 

[Gutfright]

Supporting Jeremy Corbyn does not make you automatically left-wing. I know plenty of people who are pretty sexist, racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic who support him.

When you start learning about systems, everything is sexist, everything is racist, everything is homophobic.

And you have to point it all out to everyone all the time.

 

[TheKnightWho]

When you start learning about systems, everything is sexist, everything is racist, everything is homophobic.

And you have to point it all out to everyone all the time.

What on earth is your point? Should we just ignore things because they're inconvenient?

 

[Gutfright]

What on earth is your point? Should we just ignore things because they're inconvenient?

In this country, if you're white you have white privilege. If you're a man you have gender privilege. If you're heterosexual you have straight privilege. This means that, by definition, all white people are racist, all men are misogynists, all straight people are homophobic.

By contrast, it's impossible for the oppressed groups to be the oppressor. Racism, sexism and homophobia are all prejudice plus power. It's simply not possible for non-white people to be racist in the UK, or for women to be sexist.

Unless you are a transgendered black lesbian in a wheelchair, it is literally impossible for you to be left-wing. So cut all the holier-than-thou crap, yeah?

 

[EM2]

In this country, if you're white you have white privilege. If you're a man you have gender privilege. If you're heterosexual you have straight privilege. This means that, by definition, all white people are racist, all men are misogynists, all straight people are homophobic.

How do you work that out?!
I am aware that I am in a privileged position, but I have no control over my skin, gender or sexuality.
It is the actions of society that create that privilege, not the individual.

 

[GatwickDepress]

In this country, if you're white you have white privilege. If you're a man you have gender privilege. If you're heterosexual you have straight privilege. This means that, by definition, all white people are racist, all men are misogynists.

Eh? That's... not how privilege works. That isn't how privilege works, even in the darkest depths of the murky pit of Tumblr.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Unless you are a transgendered black lesbian in a wheelchair, it is literally impossible for you to be left-wing. So cut all the holier-than-thou crap, yeah?

Others have covered most of it, but I feel I need to point out how absurd this is when I was replying to someone who literally said they were probably more left-wing than me.

 

[Harbornite]

In this country, if you're white you have white privilege. If you're a man you have gender privilege. If you're heterosexual you have straight privilege. This means that, by definition, all white people are racist, all men are misogynists, all straight people are homophobic.

By contrast, it's impossible for the oppressed groups to be the oppressor. Racism, sexism and homophobia are all prejudice plus power. It's simply not possible for non-white people to be racist in the UK, or for women to be sexist.

Unless you are a transgendered black lesbian in a wheelchair, it is literally impossible for you to be left-wing. So cut all the holier-than-thou crap, yeah?

Only a thicko or an entitled brat would feel like this. Most rational people can acknowledge that blacks and Asians can also be racist, and yet recognise that there are issues that are being discussed. You just sound bitter and as though everyone is out to get you for not being politically correct or whatever.

 

[Groningen]

So it appears that Jack Buckby from the British National Party will be contest the seat left vacant by Jo Cox.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that a fund set up in Jo Cox's honour has raised over £700,000 so far for charities she supported. I can't post a link to it as I'm posting on my phone.

 

[Zoidberg]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that a fund set up in Jo Cox's honour has raised over £700,000 so far for charities she supported. I can't post a link to it as I'm posting on my phone.

Mentioned in this BBC article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36569937

The mother of two was killed in the town on Thursday, and a fund set up in her name has exceeded £700,000.

 

[zuriblue]

So it appears that Jack Buckby from the British National Party will be contest the seat left vacant by Jo Cox.

With any luck he won't get the 10 signatures that are required. (although following the 2015 election several UKIP activists have found themselves in court for forging signatures on nomination papers)

If he does stand he's almost certainly saying goodbye to his deposit.

 

[yorkie]

In this country, if you're white you have white privilege. If you're a man you have gender privilege. If you're heterosexual you have straight privilege....

I see absolutely no evidence of any of that.

 

[Muttley]

...is as ridiculous as me saying you're on the same side as Nick Griffin so you must be some far-right BNP supporter.

But that's exactly what you're intimating.
You might not read the crap you write, but i used to.
And don't come back with that "just your interpretation" rubbish when you're caught out with your lies.

 

[Busaholic]

The bloke is mentally ill.

That will be for the court to determine. I can also tell you the reason why the Magistrate Court appearance was in London - it was so that he could be held in custody at Belmarsh Prison in S.E. London following his court appearance, this being the prison with the highest security clearance. In the days of the unlamented IRA it used to be Paddington Green Police Station where such people were held, but that is considered too risky post-IRA i.e. allowing for suicide bombers as part of a strategy to 'spring' a prisoner.

 

[317 forever]

Jo Cox was my local MP, I met her at local meetings and she was a very dedicated woman who had an awful lot of time for her constituents. Absolutely shocking that something like this could happen so close to home. My thoughts are obviously with her family and friends right now, so I won't go into my thoughts on the perpetrator of this shocking and vile attack.

Jo was indeed dedicated to helping people through her international charity work, then as an MP. She is famous for not having become an MP to be a career politician but to have aspired to become MP for Batley & Spen for the honour and privelege of helping and serving people on her home patch.

The Conservatives have indicated they will not contest the by election as a mark of respect towards to a much-loved and respected politician.

That is a generous and decent tribute.

This is a remarkably sensitive move, and I also credit the other parties who have followed suit. Given that the Conservatives held the seat until 1997 and won neighbouring Outwood & Morley last year, they might have sacrificed a potential by-election win.

Even UKIPcould have won it on the back of their increased publicity and airtime as a result of the referendum.

Report on the ITV news just now said about Jo Cox helping to set up a Friends of Batley station group and helping to get safety improvements for passengers crossing the line.

I have seen the picture of Jo at Batley station. As we on this forum are rail enthusiasts, I feel I can say here that I shall find it a sad and poignant reminder of her next time I travel through Batley, as it is of course on the main Leeds - Manchester route.

 

[Antman]

That will be for the court to determine. I can also tell you the reason why the Magistrate Court appearance was in London - it was so that he could be held in custody at Belmarsh Prison in S.E. London following his court appearance, this being the prison with the highest security clearance. In the days of the unlamented IRA it used to be Paddington Green Police Station where such people were held, but that is considered too risky post-IRA i.e. allowing for suicide bombers as part of a strategy to 'spring' a prisoner.

Yes that will be for a court to decide but I think most of us can draw our own conclusions.

I know about Belmarsh but I can't see why this bloke is any greater risk than any other alleged murderer.

 

[Gutfright]

I see absolutely no evidence of any of that.

It's called privilege theory and even though it's based far more on anecdote than fact (one example of "white privilege" is -and I kid you not - being able to buy beige coloured sticking plasters!) there is a small minority of credulous morons on the left who buy into it wholeheartedly.

This becomes problematic when people on the left decide to ignore serious issues such as TTIP, the funding of the European far-right by the EU, austerity being forced on southern Europe by the EU and European Central Bank, the destruction of the countryside caused by the EU's Common Agricultural Policy etc etc, and instead concentrate on denouncing one another for real and imagined ideological thought crimes.

I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect there's at least one supposedly left-wing contributor to these threads who's exitedly preparing to type "So you're defending white privilege now? I knew it! Das raycist! RAYCIST!!!" as if that constitutes some sort of an argument.

The left really is it's own worst enemy sometimes.

 

[TheKnightWho]

But that's exactly what you're intimating.
You might not read the crap you write, but i used to.
And don't come back with that "just your interpretation" rubbish when you're caught out with your lies.

Nope, I'm pretty sure I didn't. Care to quote me as actually saying that?

It's pretty obvious you're getting very desperate at this point.

 

[Busaholic]

This is a remarkably sensitive move, and I also credit the other parties who have followed suit. Given that the Conservatives held the seat until 1997 and won neighbouring Outwood & Morley last year, they might have sacrificed a potential by-election win.

Even UKIPcould have won it on the back of their increased publicity and airtime as a result of the referendum.



.

'Any Answers' on Radio 4 yesterday asked anyone who knew Jo Cox in her constituency to phone in. The last caller, a male, said he had stood as a candidate against her at the General Election, but that despite their political differences he had been very impressed by her and had been even more so during her brief time in Parliament. I expected him to have been the Cons or LibDem candidate but was very surprised when it was announced he had been the UKIP candidate.
Uncontested elections are normally anathema, but exceptions prove the rule. The BNP and other such groupings will seek to spread their poison, but I hope the Labour Party do NOT campaign and thus, other than mentioning an election is taking place, the others will not be able to get publicity from the broadcasting authorities and can go back under their stones.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well it's 3 days since Jo Cox was murdered and personally I'm still feeling shocked by it. I can't imagine what her family and those close who knew her must be going through, especially hearing on national media, her very well publicized last words about being in too much pain. I know that across the world, in many countries, this kind of thing - and much worse - happens with depressing regularity, but there is something that feels particularly shocking when it happens so close to home. It's already had a noticeable impact in my local Labour Party, in London, 200 miles from Jo Cox's constituency, where some of my friends are now seriously feeling a sense of 'it could have been me' - and I understand our own MP is - unsurprisingly - feeling that particularly badly.

There's obviously going to be - and should be - a lot of soul-searching about the causes of this attack. Personally, I do not think it's remotely credible to dismiss this as one person with mental health problems. Not only is that unfair (and somewhat insulting to the millions of other people in the UK who have mental health problems of some description, almost all of whom pose no danger to anyone except possibly themselves), but it ignores that none of us live in a vacuum; we are all heavily influenced by our culture, by society, by the attitudes of other people, and by the media. It seems very obvious to me in this regard that the continual denigration of politics, the cynicism, the assumption that politicians are always acting in bad faith, and the determination by many people (and many newspapers) to find reasons to make out that there is foul play or bad motivation must surely be a factor. The Telegraph has an unusually thoughtful article about this:

Public discourse about politicians is becoming ugly. It’s one thing to be critical of a specific MP’s language, or their actions, or a party’s policies. But it’s quite another to wish a plague on all their houses, to snort that they’re “all the same”, that they’re “only in it for themselves”. I’m tired of hearing about “the elites” and “the establishment”, “the bubble” and “the political class”, nasty little phrases that dehumanise the individual, encourage brainless paranoia, poison us with suspicion – and provoke some to hate. We aren’t ruled by a cabal of the evil, greedy and callous. We’re served by human beings who make mistakes, and get no end of grief even when they don’t.

We should remember Jo Cox – and we should remember that.

Aside from remembering most people, whether politicians or otherwise, do actually often try to do their best with their limited understanding of whatever the situation is, I think that's a good reminder to try to conduct debates in a respectful manner.

And then I come to railforums and, on the thread that's supposed to be about this tragedy, I read stuff like this:

It's pretty obvious you're getting very desperate at this point.

This seems to be part of a long, rather boring to read, and increasingly acrimonious sub-discussion that, so far as I can tell, mostly seems to be made up of certain forum members questioning other forum members' intelligence/honesty/good faith/etc. I think several people here could do with stepping back and considering the thing about respectfulness.