Landslip at Hatfield Colliery (near Doncaster) line to Hull/Scunthorpe now reopened.

[Eccles]

That does look like a lot of water - snowmelt from yesterday I guess?

There's a good theory on the mechanics of the landslide here:
http://blogs.agu.org/landslideblog/2013/02/14/the-geology-and-a-possible-mechanism-of-the-hatfield-stainforth-colliery-landslide/

If he's right, levelling it out could be a complete nightmare. Might be easier to divert round it...!

 

[YorkshireBear]

A worrying amount of what appears to be water pooled at the top of the slip there....

That is exactly what i was alarmed by when watching it. That isnt going to help anything!

 

[yorksrob]

That does look like a lot of water - snowmelt from yesterday I guess?

There's a good theory on the mechanics of the landslide here:
http://blogs.agu.org/landslideblog/2013/02/14/the-geology-and-a-possible-mechanism-of-the-hatfield-stainforth-colliery-landslide/

If he's right, levelling it out could be a complete nightmare. Might be easier to divert round it...!

Ah, good old rotational slumping. How I miss A-Level geography

Nice pic of it in The Times today !

 

[Rich McLean]

Ah, good old rotational slumping. How I miss A-Level geography

Nice pic of it in The Times today !

The only way I think they would solve this after it has stopped, it to two track is through that section instead of 4. Yes it would cause capacity issues, but at least it would get it back up and running again

 

[Mugby]

It will be interesting to see how they will move the slurry from the site, it must amount to thousands of tons.

I think eight weeks to re-open the line is being very optimistic.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It will be interesting to see how they will move the slurry from the site, it must amount to thousands of tons.

I think eight weeks to re-open the line is being very optimistic.

It is 8 weeks after its all stopped and they are allowed on site, which i reckon is do able, 3 weeks clearing earth, 1 week checking and i reckon with everything raring to go on site 4 weeks to install and test. OPtimistic maybe, do-able? Certainly.
Is there scope for waste to be removed by rail? Spoil trains could back up to the site very easily.

 

[petersi]

I think eight weeks to re-open the line is being very optimistic.

Maybe they will abandon the line and redouble Brigg
With a cord in the Scunthorpe

I thing the solution will depend on what the loss adjusters decide.
If the insurance will not cover reinstatement it may not happen. I doubt the colliery assets could cover the reinstatement so no point in trying to recover money from them.

 

[jonty14]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...re-tracks-left-twisted-colliery-landslip.html

Yes it is the DM, but there are some pictures in there! :P

I like the "Stop" signs on the track in the photos! Got no option but to stop!

 

[Ploughman]

No need for spoil trains just excavate the heap from the colliery side and move it further back onto their property.
Just need big machines and lots of them.
May even be possible to pump it if it is that wet just may need a bit extra liquid to enable it.
Its how they are proposing to transport the product from the new Mine at Whitby.

 

[ainsworth74]

Maybe they will abandon the line and redouble Brigg
With a cord in the Scunthorpe

And for the 2tph to Hull and beyond?

 

[petersi]

And for the 2tph to Hull and beyond?

Hull is served by Selby

Nobody on this forums wants a line closed.

But If the reinstatement is extremely expensive and insures will not cover the bill. It might not be viable to reinstate the line.

I not a civil engineer but from what I understand stabilisation can expensive and costs unpredictable.

If the Slag Heap is liable for Landfill tax it may not be economical to move it.
Remember on the blue bell line the costs because of land fill would have rise from 2 Million to 10 Million if they did not complete by a certain date.
I would be interested to here if there is a landfill tax liability ?

 

[TG]

hull might very well be served by selby but there simply isnt the capacity on the ECML to keep running that way... also, what about goole, thorne north, hatfield and stainforth and kirk sandall?? these are all very busy stations throughout the day and not just at rush hour.....

 

[mbonwick]

No need for spoil trains just excavate the heap from the colliery side and move it further back onto their property.
Just need big machines and lots of them.
May even be possible to pump it if it is that wet just may need a bit extra liquid to enable it.
Its how they are proposing to transport the product from the new Mine at Whitby.

Easiest solution is probably a fleet of Cat D11H dozers or similar and just push the whole pile back up and over.
Get a few of them working together and they can shift mountains in fairly short order....

 

[yorksrob]

But If the reinstatement is extremely expensive and insures will not cover the bill. It might not be viable to reinstate the line.

Perhaps they could sue the coal board !

 

[petersi]

hull might very well be served by selby but there simply isnt the capacity on the ECML to keep running that way... also, what about goole, thorne north, hatfield and stainforth and kirk sandall?? these are all very busy stations throughout the day and not just at rush hour.....

I am not advocating the line be abandoned.

Just fearful that the accountants and Lawyers may allow it.

as I said no one want to see a line closed as most posters including me love travelling by train.

 

[ainsworth74]

I am not advocating the line be abandoned.

That's really not what it sounds like...

Unless you have some sources to back up the claims that the line might need to be abandoned due to cost I suggest that this line of discussion is premature at best and simple scaremongering at worst.

 

[Garmoran]

Certainly this must end up being one of the longest line closures other than when that line was in the far reaches of Scotland.

There was a derailment near Ely in 2007 that led to the line from Ely to Kennet being closed for 6 months.

Ahh, wildest Cambridgeshire, South Scotland: Alex Salmond's heartland. Seriously though, I can't recall any incidents on the Highland lines which caused closure for more than a couple of weeks, except for the Ness viaduct, and that was right in the centre of Inverness

 

[dstrat]

Surely they wouldn't abandon the line? - the busiest freight line in the country (tonnage) and the important connection to the important town of Grimsby??

I mean.....14 miles of the selby diversion was built to bypass possible subsidence.

 

[ainsworth74]

Seriously though, I can't recall any incidents on the Highland lines which caused closure for more than a couple of weeks, except for the Ness viaduct, and that was right in the centre of Inverness

It was the Ness Viaduct of which I was thinking which cut off the Far North Line for some considerable time. I'm not sure what the confusion is?

Surely they wouldn't abandon the line? - the busiest freight line in the country (tonnage) and the important connection to the important town of Grimsby??

Exactly! Unless someone has a source for the suggestion that it might be abandoned I don't think there's any reasons for such discussion. I also suspect that closing the line would actually require Parliamentary approval so equally would also not be a simple process.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yep... i dont think anyone is mentioned that except you, the line will not close, it might take a while for 4 track at full speed again but the line will not close especially not in favour of the Brigg line.

 

[dstrat]

Yeah I think it is a batty idea. I mean, the Brigg line surely has to exist in part as a relief line to the Scunny to Barnetby section. The fact that such a large part of the electricity generation in this country is down to the fuels being transported from up the line to the trent power stations - I can't see how it would be a possiblity to get rid of it.

 

[DarloRich]

The only way I think they would solve this after it has stopped, it to two track is through that section instead of 4. Yes it would cause capacity issues, but at least it would get it back up and running again

Maybe they will abandon the line and redouble Brigg
With a cord in the Scunthorpe

I thing the solution will depend on what the loss adjusters decide.
If the insurance will not cover reinstatement it may not happen. I doubt the colliery assets could cover the reinstatement so no point in trying to recover money from them.

Hull is served by Selby

Nobody on this forums wants a line closed.

But If the reinstatement is extremely expensive and insures will not cover the bill. It might not be viable to reinstate the line.

I not a civil engineer but from what I understand stabilisation can expensive and costs unpredictable.

If the Slag Heap is liable for Landfill tax it may not be economical to move it.
Remember on the blue bell line the costs because of land fill would have rise from 2 Million to 10 Million if they did not complete by a certain date.
I would be interested to here if there is a landfill tax liability ?

I am not advocating the line be abandoned.

Just fearful that the accountants and Lawyers may allow it.

as I said no one want to see a line closed as most posters including me love travelling by train.

Grow a brain :roll: It is a very important freight artery. Consider what is made at Scunthorpe and what the trains need to run on. No one is going to abandon it or build a diversion.

What will happen is this :

1) Once the heap is stable the spoil will be removed, no doubt to another location on the site ( the option of moving it elsewhere by rail could be a possibility)

2) The formation will be dug out, cleaned, leveled and rebuilt

3) Track will be laid ballasted, tamped, signals & telecoms will be restored.

4) Trains will run like nothing has ever happened. ( except perhaps a speed)

The colliery public liability insurance will take a hit and it wont be a quick job but the line will reopen. Surprising as it might seem to many of you the blokes who fix the track are pretty good , especially in a crisis. Relaying the track is the easiest part of the lot.

This will still be cheaper than building a diversion, increasing capacity on other routes or any other idea anyone might dream up.

 

[petersi]

The fact that such a large part of the electricity generation in this country is down to the fuels being transported from up the line to the trent power stations - I can't see how it would be a possiblity to get rid of it.

Please ignore the idea I am just feeling pessimistic as so often short cuts with infrastructure are taken because of short term finical goals which the country then regrets in the long term.

 

[TG]

Grow a brain :roll: It is a very important freight artery. Consider what is made at Scunthorpe and what the trains need to run on. No one is going to abandon it or build a diversion.

What will happen is this :

1) Once the heap is stable the spoil will be removed, no doubt to another location on the site ( the option of moving it elsewhere by rail could be a possibility)

2) The formation will be dug out, cleaned, leveled and rebuilt

3) Track will be laid ballasted, tamped, signals & telecoms will be restored.

4) Trains will run like nothing has ever happened. ( except perhaps a speed)

The colliery public liability insurance will take a hit and it wont be a quick job but the line will reopen. Surprising as it might seem to many of you the blokes who fix the track are pretty good , especially in a crisis. Relaying the track is the easiest part of the lot.

This will still be cheaper than building a diversion, increasing capacity on other routes or any other idea anyone might dream up.

as usual rich... i salute you!!

 

[swj99]

The colliery pays. Rylands v Fletcher, if you bring and keep something dangerous on to your land, you're liable for damage to land resulting from it's escape.

Sounds about right.

If the insurance will not cover reinstatement it may not happen. I doubt the colliery assets could cover the reinstatement so no point in trying to recover money from them.

Unless someone has a source for the suggestion that it might be abandoned I don't think there's any reasons for such discussion. I also suspect that closing the line would actually require Parliamentary approval so equally would also not be a simple process.

Exactly.
One way it could go would be for NR to simply finance the repair then claim the cost back from the owner and / or operator of the colliery, or their insurer.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Please ignore the idea I am just feeling pessimistic as so often short cuts with infrastructure are taken because of short term finical goals which the country then regrets in the long term.

Fortunately in regards rail, this has stopped and people are starting to look to the future far more.

 

[NathanPrior]

At least this happened when it did and not on Saturday when I'm on my way to/from Hull, no increase in journey time due to the diversion either though so that's all good.

 

[TG]

you are aware of the engineering works at selby at the weekend right?!

 

[YorkshireBear]

you are aware of the engineering works at selby at the weekend right?!

I wanted to leave someone else the pleasure for that :P

 

[NathanPrior]

you are aware of the engineering works at selby at the weekend right?!

Train diverted via Google instead