Leeds Station concourse and platform improvements

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought that the idea was to reinstate the viaduct for the use of trans-Pennine services, rather than Doncaster line services?

That would make more sense as TPE services use the south side of Leeds station (platforms 15 & 16 in particular) thus making access to the viaduct easier.

As there is only an hourly EMU service Doncaster to Leeds stopper, plus a similar DMU service to Sheffield they shouldn't cause a big problem. Once electrification is extended eastwards the Doncaster EMUs are likely to continue to Micklefield, Selby or York, rather than terminate in Leeds. However the amount of platform time saved would be very little since they currently stand for only 7 minutes (xx.14 to xx.21) in platform 13. Their longer layover is about 20 minutes in platform 6 at Doncaster where they don't contribute to congestion.

The TPE services mostly use 15 & 16 but not for any particular reason. Holbeck viaduct would be of little use to trans-Pennine services as the other end joins the line to Wakefield Westgate rather than the line to Dewsbury. Reopening the viaduct would be ideal for XC services as well as the stoppers via Westgate. Whilst it's a bit pie-in-the-sky, reopening the viaduct line would also open the possibility of a platform(s) close to Elland Road stadium.

 

[Bantamzen]

Atkins have a contract for the station remodelling to prepare it for HS2, which includes improvements to the northern concourse taking place over the next five or six years.

I was thinking more about the planned upgrade to go alongside the refurbishment of City House (now Platform) next door. The render as shown in this link from Skyscraper City shows what I mean:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=138488308&postcount=1007

 

[edwin_m]

The TPE services mostly use 15 & 16 but not for any particular reason.

15 and 16 lead directly to the pair of tracks that head towards Huddersfield (along with the Woodlesford route whose trains normally use 17). So using these platforms minimises conflict west of the station. For similar reasons, continuing across the station south to north, you get trains via Bradford Interchange, then trains via Doncaster, and finally trains via Shipley and Harrogate.

 

[lejog]

The TPE services mostly use 15 & 16 but not for any particular reason.

15 and 16 lead directly to the pair of tracks that head towards Huddersfield (along with the Woodlesford route whose trains normally use 17). So using these platforms minimises conflict west of the station. For similar reasons, continuing across the station south to north, you get trains via Bradford Interchange, then trains via Doncaster, and finally trains via Shipley and Harrogate.

I agree with edwin_m, although from the time I've spent on trains from Bradford Interchange waiting for East Coast and Cross Country trains to pass, I've always thought of trains from Bradford Interchange and Westgate/Doncaster as sharing the same approach.

Am I also right in thinking that Platform 15/16 are true through platforms and would be blocked by any trains that terminate there? IIRC, platforms 8/9 and 11/12 both have the third line which allows through services to pass terminators at the west end of the platforms.

Reopening the viaduct (without a flyover) would mean trains from Westgate forming the new most southerly approach and either creating more conflicts if continuing to route them to platforms 6-13 or blocking platforms 15/16 with terminators. So not good for capacity as long unless the station is remodelled.

 

[Bantamzen]

They could, although it would cause a few extra conflicts with VTEC trains. The reason for the Micklefield turnback originally being in the CP5 plan was specifically to increase capacity by running 2 Calder Valley - Micklefield tph, but that plan seems to have been dropped, instead running 6*23m trains and terminating the extra service from Victoria at Bradford Interchange.

Hopefully any future capacity improvements will allow all Calder Valley services to run through to Leeds, if platform 0 is being built there is already extra capacity being added for Aire/Wharfe/Harrogate services.

When VTEC start running through services to Bradford FS & Harrogate there are still going to be some conflicts to the west of Leeds, even if said services approach Leeds from the east via the Hambleton Curve. But there is probably just enough slack to allow some conflicting movement across the approaches from Wakefield / Aire / Wharfe / Harrogate lines, especially if P8 isn't used as much for terminating Kings Cross VTECs.

 

[xotGD]

The TPE services mostly use 15 & 16 but not for any particular reason. Holbeck viaduct would be of little use to trans-Pennine services as the other end joins the line to Wakefield Westgate rather than the line to Dewsbury. Reopening the viaduct would be ideal for XC services as well as the stoppers via Westgate. Whilst it's a bit pie-in-the-sky, reopening the viaduct line would also open the possibility of a platform(s) close to Elland Road stadium.

The viaduct originally connected with the trans-Pennine route via Farnley & Wortley station at Gelderd Road Jn, before being modified to connect with the Doncaster line instead (in 1967-ish). A bit of compulsory purchase, and the original alignment could be reinstated.

See here for the original arrangement:

http://www.lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk/leeds west.htm

 

[theblackwatch]

The viaduct originally connected with the trans-Pennine route via Farnley & Wortley station at Gelderd Road Jn, before being modified to connect with the Doncaster line instead (in 1967-ish). A bit of compulsory purchase, and the original alignment could be reinstated.

See here for the original arrangement:

http://www.lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk/leeds west.htm

Well I've learnt something new there! I'd assumed it had always connected to the line to Westgate. I'm quite surprised it hasn't bee reinstated at all, even in one direction, given the bottleneck of trains there is now. I do remember being surprised when the viaduct was (part) electrified in around 1989 (a couple of years after closure) - it was used for stabling of 91s/Mark 4s during layovers for a couple of years.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree with edwin_m, although from the time I've spent on trains from Bradford Interchange waiting for East Coast and Cross Country trains to pass, I've always thought of trains from Bradford Interchange and Westgate/Doncaster as sharing the same approach.

Am I also right in thinking that Platform 15/16 are true through platforms and would be blocked by any trains that terminate there? IIRC, platforms 8/9 and 11/12 both have the third line which allows through services to pass terminators at the west end of the platforms.

Reopening the viaduct (without a flyover) would mean trains from Westgate forming the new most southerly approach and either creating more conflicts if continuing to route them to platforms 6-13 or blocking platforms 15/16 with terminators. So not good for capacity as long unless the station is remodelled.

15 and 16 are true through platforms, however trains do terminate there sometimes.

 

[bradders1983]

I agree with edwin_m, although from the time I've spent on trains from Bradford Interchange waiting for East Coast and Cross Country trains to pass, I've always thought of trains from Bradford Interchange and Westgate/Doncaster as sharing the same approach.

Am I also right in thinking that Platform 15/16 are true through platforms and would be blocked by any trains that terminate there? IIRC, platforms 8/9 and 11/12 both have the third line which allows through services to pass terminators at the west end of the platforms.

Reopening the viaduct (without a flyover) would mean trains from Westgate forming the new most southerly approach and either creating more conflicts if continuing to route them to platforms 6-13 or blocking platforms 15/16 with terminators. So not good for capacity as long unless the station is remodelled.

Isnt the talk about extending the Doncaster service out to the east once electrification is done?

That eliminates one train an hour, although to be replaced by the new Knottingley-Wakefield K service that is to be extended to Leeds.

Maybe that side of the station would need a new bay platform although no room to put it really.

 

[lejog]

When VTEC start running through services to Bradford FS & Harrogate there are still going to be some conflicts to the west of Leeds, even if said services approach Leeds from the east via the Hambleton Curve. But there is probably just enough slack to allow some conflicting movement across the approaches from Wakefield / Aire / Wharfe / Harrogate lines, especially if P8 isn't used as much for terminating Kings Cross VTECs.

I agree that extending VTEC services is going to create a few more conflicts at the advantage of running more services to Bradford FS and Harrogate. But why create even more conflicts by moving services from Shipley from the west facing bays, when you could extend services currently terminating in platforms 9-13 without conflicts?

If there is slack west of Leeds, why terminate services at Bradford Interchange?

 

[Bantamzen]

I agree that extending VTEC services is going to create a few more conflicts at the advantage of running more services to Bradford FS and Harrogate. But why create even more conflicts by moving services from Shipley from the west facing bays, when you could extend services currently terminating in platforms 9-13 without conflicts?

If there is slack west of Leeds, why terminate services at Bradford Interchange?

Well for a start once the wires are up to York, it would make better sense to use EMUs east of Leeds wherever possible and of course the line to Bradford Interchange isn't currently confirmed as being a recipient of electrification. The faster acceleration of the EMUs would help with the bottleneck of stoppers and fasts heading towards York/Hull & beyond. As things stand, with some VTECs running through you could use P6* (and P1 as a backup) for terminating VTECs, and primarily P8 & P9 for Aire/Wharfe <> Micklefield & VTECs running through via Hambleton. There would be some conflicts, but they would mainly be with the terminating VTECs and through services, the Calder & Wakefield lines would otherwise be fairly free of conflict.
(* this assumes that the Bradford & Harrogate through VTECs will operate in alternate hours, and not arrive as 2x5 80xs with them splitting at Leeds)

 

[xotGD]

Isnt the talk about extending the Doncaster service out to the east once electrification is done?

That eliminates one train an hour, although to be replaced by the new Knottingley-Wakefield K service that is to be extended to Leeds.

Maybe that side of the station would need a new bay platform although no room to put it really.

I'm guessing that the extra Knottingley will depart at around quarter-past the hour, to fit the existing times from Kirkgate. If so, P17 is available after the xx:05 Nottingham has departed.

Of course, there might be a total revamp of Pontefract line services, and existing times go out of the window.

 

[lejog]

Well for a start once the wires are up to York, it would make better sense to use EMUs east of Leeds wherever possible and of course the line to Bradford Interchange isn't currently confirmed as being a recipient of electrification. The faster acceleration of the EMUs would help with the bottleneck of stoppers and fasts heading towards York/Hull & beyond.

True, but after electrification you could equally extend the Doncaster-Leeds service and the Piccadilly to Leeds skip/stop service (or whatever stopping service from Huddersfield replaces it) to provide the two tph stopping services east of Leeds.

As things stand, with some VTECs running through you could use P6* (and P1 as a backup) for terminating VTECs, and primarily P8 & P9 for Aire/Wharfe <> Micklefield & VTECs running through via Hambleton. There would be some conflicts, but they would mainly be with the terminating VTECs and through services, the Calder & Wakefield lines would otherwise be fairly free of conflict.
(* this assumes that the Bradford & Harrogate through VTECs will operate in alternate hours, and not arrive as 2x5 80xs with them splitting at Leeds)

I can assure you, from years of painful experience, that delays to VTEC services DO have a significant knock-on effect on Calder Valley services. Which is why I'm all against creating unnecessary extra conflicts.

 

[deltic08]

I repeat what I said in #311 as readers have not understood me. The only way to get East Coast services from the Doncaster line to north side of Leeds station is a flyover, as at Hitchin, off the original line to Central station embankment where Holbeck High Level station used to be to the toe of platforms 1 and 2. This cuts out any conflict across the west end station throat and allows onward travel to Bradford FS, Skipton and Harrogate again without conflict.

Recommission Holbeck viaduct at the Leeds end and extend under Doncaster line, as it was originally before alterations in 1967, to former Farnley Junction even though this will mean demolition of property, mainly light industrial units, at the west end. This will allow TransPennine to stop in platforms 15/16 again with no conflict whatsoever. Calder Valley via Bradford I, Aire/Wharfe and Harrogate can come and go in the middle platforms as now as can the Castlefords and Wakefield Kirkgate services.

Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers would have to use platform 17.

What is desperately needed is quad tracking at the east end of Leeds station all the way to Micklefield so that stopping and non-stopping services can be mixed without one affecting the other. If it can be done at Ordsall why not in Leeds as we are just as short of capacity as Manchester?

 

[Bantamzen]

True, but after electrification you could equally extend the Doncaster-Leeds service and the Piccadilly to Leeds skip/stop service (or whatever stopping service from Huddersfield replaces it) to provide the two tph stopping services east of Leeds.

True I suppose you could, although relying on the Doncaster service in particular might lead to some pain (more on that in a moment).

I can assure you, from years of painful experience, that delays to VTEC services DO have a significant knock-on effect on Calder Valley services. Which is why I'm all against creating unnecessary extra conflicts.

Nothing like the pain of the Doncaster services getting held up by late running VTECs / XCs, I can assure you! Many a time when I commuted from South Elmsall we would be 20-30 late because of a late running XC, and then having to wait for a (then) GNER/EC service to follow. I've found that the Donny services have been the most prone to delays due to other conflicting late services, and closely followed by TPEs heading to Manchester.

In comparison, Aire & Wharfe services tend to be fairly resilient so personally speaking I think they would be better suited to continue east of Leeds.

 

[IanXC]

Am I also right in thinking that Platform 15/16 are true through platforms and would be blocked by any trains that terminate there? IIRC, platforms 8/9 and 11/12 both have the third line which allows through services to pass terminators at the west end of the platforms.

It's only 11/12 which have a through line. 8/9 do not, nor do they have any crossovers mid platform despite what the timetable may say.

The single most congested area of Leeds station in my experience is Platform 17. A delay on one of the services using it conflicts with the next, any excess stock or failures messes it up, and that's before we get to waiting for TPE services to depart 16...

 

[BantamMenace]

I was thinking more about the planned upgrade to go alongside the refurbishment of City House (now Platform) next door. The render as shown in this link from Skyscraper City shows what I mean:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=138488308&postcount=1007

Is this the final approved plan or just an artist impression of what is possible?

What is the estimated completion date including the glass facade entrance to the station, not just the recladding of the office block please?

 

[yorksrob]

The station looks no different, but made of glass.

I'll miss the BR pine effect ceiling on the Southern concourse. It looked good before they slapped a load of dulux on it.

 

[xotGD]

The station looks no different, but made of glass.

I'll miss the BR pine effect ceiling on the Southern concourse. It looked good before they slapped a load of dulux on it.

The significant difference is the much larger pedestrianised area in front of the entrance. At the moment, with people waiting for their bus and others stood around having a smoke before going for their train there is barely room to move.

 

[yorksrob]

The significant difference is the much larger pedestrianised area in front of the entrance. At the moment, with people waiting for their bus and others stood around having a smoke before going for their train there is barely room to move.

That will certainly be an improvement.The walkways to the town are currently far too narrow.

 

[Sceptre]

I do wonder what will happen to the taxi rank though; you can't really move it to Princes' Square as that's a bottleneck just with the PHVs.

 

[xotGD]

I do wonder what will happen to the taxi rank though; you can't really move it to Princes' Square as that's a bottleneck just with the PHVs.

I thought that was the taxi queue at the bottom of the picture where there are some road markings (indicating the taxi bay?).

 

[Andyh82]

The station looks no different, but made of glass.

I'll miss the BR pine effect ceiling on the Southern concourse. It looked good before they slapped a load of dulux on it.

The roof also looks to be maybe twice as high to allow a second layer of retail.

I can't see them moving the buses away considering it's fairly recently that they brought them onto New Station Street in the first place, and unless they put the other roads back to how they were, bus users would end up even worse than they were in the first place (Boar Lane used to be two way all the way through to City Square)

 

[brompton rail]

The roof also looks to be maybe twice as high to allow a second layer of retail.

I can't see them moving the buses away considering it's fairly recently that they brought them onto New Station Street in the first place, and unless they put the other roads back to how they were, bus users would end up even worse than they were in the first place (Boar Lane used to be two way all the way through to City Square)

The Platform website also shows a taxi rank (with only one 'London' type taxi!) outside the pedestrian entrance, so I doubt much credence can be awarded to an 'artists impression.

The Rotunda building also seems to exclude the Cycle Point!

 

[rich r]

The roof also looks to be maybe twice as high to allow a second layer of retail.

Yes - the planning submission shows a future mezzanine level for retail and food outlets. Having somewhere (other than the pub) to sit down and eat has long been a thing customer surveys have shown people would like.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes - the planning submission shows a future mezzanine level for retail and food outlets. Having somewhere (other than the pub) to sit down and eat has long been a thing customer surveys have shown people would like.

I can remember when Burger King had the retail unit now occupied by M&S they had seating available. I very rarely used them after they moved to the concourse kiosk.

 

[Bantamzen]

Judging by the current closure of the pavement directly in front of City House / Platform, and pedestrians being redirected along New Station Street on a section of closed off road alongside the taxi access, I think perhaps this is more to do with the final removal of the scaffolding for the building re-cladding and preparation for the installation of the building's new facade. I don't think now that any works will be taking place in front of or in the concourse area, as suggested by the earlier render I posted.

I was under the impression that the new concourse roof was part of the overall plan, but perhaps this is something that NR will address at a future date.

 

[Saint66]

Judging by the current closure of the pavement directly in front of City House / Platform, and pedestrians being redirected along New Station Street on a section of closed off road alongside the taxi access, I think perhaps this is more to do with the final removal of the scaffolding for the building re-cladding and preparation for the installation of the building's new facade. I don't think now that any works will be taking place in front of or in the concourse area, as suggested by the earlier render I posted.

I was under the impression that the new concourse roof was part of the overall plan, but perhaps this is something that NR will address at a future date.

Indeed, as I posted briefly a week or two ago the closure is largely for the final stage of the re-clad of the Platform building.

NR appointed designers for the station only last year, so I wouldn't expect much change for a while yet.

 

[Grumpy]

There's a bit more blurb in yesterday's local rag
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....ation-a-world-class-gateway-to-city-1-8437696

Masterplan to make Leeds Station a ‘world class gateway’ to city

A long-term masterplan to rebuild Leeds Station is being drawn up which will see extra platforms, new concourse areas and extra retail space as the city aims to create a “world class gateway” for visitors.

Leeds Station is already one of the busiest transport hubs in the north and the council and partner agencies want to begin work now to accommodate HS2 and HS3 as well as expected growth on the existing network.

The project could involve opening up the Dark Arches to create new pedestrian areas and to remove traffic from Neville Street and City Square, Leeds is to work with London and Continental Railways, the Government-owned property company that helped mastermind the successful Kings Cross Central scheme and the design work is being led by Hiro Aso of Gensler, the architect of the Kings Cross station renovation.

To oversee the redevelopment Leeds City Council has pulled together a group of all the organisations with a stake in the station to work on the plans....

 

[johntea]

Meanwhile whilst all these fancy plans are being drawn up, platforms knocked up, ticket barriers being installed from scratch at other stations on the Northern network...

The QR readers for the main ticket barriers STILL aren't in operation! Getting a bit silly now, I could have probably programmed them from scratch by now!