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Leeds to newbury racecourse: delay due to missed connection

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yorkie

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Surely it's the journey being made that matters. You can't have it both ways.
The journey made was Leeds to Newbury (Racecourse, presumably) The actual arrival time at Racecourse was 40 minutes later than the scheduled arrival time. That is not having it "both ways".
Via Newbury the contracted arrival time was 20:19, not 19:39.
The contracted arrival time was 19:39.
So what? The same fare is valid both via Newbury and direct from Reading. The contracted arrival time is therefore 19:39. Because the passenger arrived early at Paddington they are perfectly entitled to catch an earlier train that would get them in earlier than this by valid connections if it's valid on their ticket.
Exactly, this is 100% correct.
If one can walk faster than scheduled within London Terminals then why can't one walk the 17 minutes from Newbury to Newbury Racecourse and arrive before 18:39 rather than waiting over an hour for a train?
The time between arrival into KGX and departure from PAD was 36 minutes. I do not know where you get the impression the OP walked 2.6 miles in 36 minutes (possible at a very brisk pace but not likely to have happened, surely?). I would assume the OP used London Underground for the cross-London transfer.

Did the OP really wait over an hour for a train or did they just walk or get a lift to their ultimate destination?
Having looked at a map of Newbury, I agree that most people would have walked it. But we do not know what the OP did and I am not convinced a delay compensation claim can be rejected on the basis that someone might have walked from a nearby station.
 
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JamesRowden

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The journey made was Leeds to Newbury. The actual arrival time was 40 minutes later than the scheduled arrival time. That is not having it "both ways".

The contracted arrival time was 19:39.

Exactly, this is 100% correct.

The time between arrival into KGX and departure from PAD was 36 minutes. I do not know where you get the impression the OP walked 2.6 miles in 36 minutes (possible at a very brisk pace but not likely to have happened, surely?). I would assume the OP used London Underground for the cross-London transfer.


Having looked at a map of Newbury, I agree that most people would have walked it. But we do not know what the OP did and I am not convinced a delay compensation claim can be rejected on the basis that someone might have walked from a nearby station.
The vast majority of 2.6 miles between Paddington and Kings Cross is not within a London terminal but on the Underground. Read more carefully next time.

The arrival time was only 20:19 if the OP waited for an hour for the train. Otherwise they weren't delayed on their rail journey which was to Newbury rather than Newbury Racecourse.
 

Muzer

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The vast majority of 2.6 miles between Paddington and Kings Cross is not within a London terminal but on the Underground. Read more carefully next time.

The arrival time was only 20:19 if the OP waited for an hour for the train. Otherwise they weren't delayed on their rail journey which was to Newbury rather than Newbury Racecourse.
IF they did walk, then it's a different matter (presumably the rules for a partially-abandoned journey would apply - I don't know for certain as I can never remember these rules, but I would assume the refund for this would be very little). I think most of us are going on the assumption here that we can take OP's statements at face value. In any case, there's very unlikely to be any way of verifying one way or another whether or not OP is telling the truth.
 

JamesRowden

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IF they did walk, then it's a different matter (presumably the rules for a partially-abandoned journey would apply - I don't know for certain as I can never remember these rules, but I would assume the refund for this would be very little). I think most of us are going on the assumption here that we can take OP's statements at face value. In any case, there's very unlikely to be any way of verifying one way or another whether or not OP is telling the truth.
The OP did not explicitly state that they did wait for the train.
 

najaB

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The journey made was Leeds to Newbury. The actual arrival time was 40 minutes later than the scheduled arrival time.
Could you produce me an itinerary which respects connections times and gives that arrival time please as I haven't been able to.
 

yorkie

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The vast majority of 2.6 miles between Paddington and Kings Cross is not within a London terminal but on the Underground. Read more carefully next time.
The time allotted to walk between trains at Paddington and King's Cross is 15 minutes apiece; it does not take much to walk faster than this (especially at Paddington where the sub-surface H&C line takes you to a point adjacent with the mainline services).

The time on the tube is 15 minutes, against scheduled journey times of 11-12 minutes, making a total minimum interchange time of 45 minutes.

I don't see how this proves the passenger abandoned their journey.
 

sheff1

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If one can walk faster than scheduled within London Terminals then why can't one walk the 17 minutes from Newbury to Newbury Racecourse and arrive before 18:39

Not sure how anyone could arrive at Newbury Racecourse before 1839 if they did not leave Paddington until 1803.
 

yorkie

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Could you produce me an itinerary which respects connections times and gives that arrival time please as I haven't been able to.
I don't see how this is difficult.

The intended and contractual itinerary was:

1515 Leeds
1727 London Kings Cross

1815 London Paddington
1840 Reading

1910 Reading
1939 Newbury Racecourse​

The OP arrived in time for the 1803 from London Paddington, which has a booked arrival time into Newbury Racecourse at 1853 with a change at Newbury, as can be seen here: http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=PAD&dest=NRC&odate=20180220&otime=1805&maxres=22&maxch=5

But the connection at Newbury was missed, therefore the passenger was delayed into Newbury Racecourse (assuming they did complete the journey).

The delay for the Leeds to Newbury Racecourse journey is therefore based on the actual arrival time into Newbury Racecourse vs the time as per the original itinerary.

There is nothing to stop passengers making an earlier connecting if they get across to Paddington quickly enough! Surely you can see that?
 

JamesRowden

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The time allotted to walk between trains at Paddington and King's Cross is 15 minutes apiece; it does not take much to walk faster than this (especially at Paddington where the sub-surface H&C line takes you to a point adjacent with the mainline services).

The time on the tube is 15 minutes, against scheduled journey times of 11-12 minutes, making a total minimum interchange time of 45 minutes.

I don't see how this proves the passenger abandoned their journey.
The passenger knows what they did (either way). It is their responsibility to be honourable. We are giving advice to the passenger, not telling GWR what judgment to make.
 

yorkie

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So you are agreeing with me that if the passenger took the next available train to their intended destination, they were 40 minutes late for delay compensation purposes? Glad we've cleared that up!
 

JamesRowden

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So you are agreeing with me that if the passenger took the next available train to their intended destination, they were 40 minutes late for delay compensation purposes? Glad we've cleared that up!
No. Since it is up to the contract that GWR have with the DfT to determine the compensation due in such a circumstance. Not your opinion. Show us elements of the contract which explicitly define exactly what should be done in this specific case and I will be very interested. Rules aren't always fair.
 

JN114

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The much more pertinent question is why was 1C92 delayed on the 12th. Doesn’t matter how many times the valid itinerary vs invalid itinerary wheel is spun it amounts to nought if the delay is out with the control of the industry.

If it was a delay “inside” the tenor of the industry’s control; then I concur with Yorkie in that a claim for 40 mins or so Delay would be valid - with the caveat that as the delayed service (the 1803 PAD -PNZ) was a HSS division service GWR May well deem HSS compensation rules apply; which start at 60 minutes unless I’m mistaken.

To answer the OP’s original question (again). If the reason for the delay is within industry control, then yes it is worth claiming - I don’t think they’ll care that you caught an ever-so-slightly earlier train from Paddington. It’s then up to you whether you think the compensation on offer is enough for you to argue your case if they decline it.
 

JamesRowden

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I know that the Southeastern delay repay scheme is dependent on the route which the passenger intended to take. The scheduled arrival time along a route is compared to the arrival time which would have been produced by that route on the day.
 

najaB

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I don't see how this is difficult.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. The OP is asking about making a claim for a delay that arose from missing a train that they shouldn't have caught. So it would be nice to see a valid itinerary that puts them on that train. If they had stuck to the trains on their itinerary then they would have arrived much earlier than they did.
 

yorkie

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Sorry, I should have been clearer. The OP is asking about making a claim for a delay that arose from missing a train that they shouldn't have caught. So it would be nice to see a valid itinerary that puts them on that train.
I do not agree that the passenger "shouldn't have caught" that train.

From Paddington there are valid itineraries to Newbury Racecourse at 1803 (arr 1853) and 1833 (arr 1939).

Although the passenger's first official connection (having come from Leeds at 1515) is any train departing Paddington from the 1815 departure onwards, if they get to Paddington for an earlier train, there is no reason they shouldn't catch it.
If they had stuck to the trains on their itinerary then they would have arrived much earlier than they did.
Do you have a crystal ball? Can you predict that if you depart earlier than originally planned, you may actually arrive later due to an unforeseen delay?
 

bb21

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The much more pertinent question is why was 1C92 delayed on the 12th. Doesn’t matter how many times the valid itinerary vs invalid itinerary wheel is spun it amounts to nought if the delay is out with the control of the industry.

If it was a delay “inside” the tenor of the industry’s control; then I concur with Yorkie in that a claim for 40 mins or so Delay would be valid - with the caveat that as the delayed service (the 1803 PAD -PNZ) was a HSS division service GWR May well deem HSS compensation rules apply; which start at 60 minutes unless I’m mistaken.

To answer the OP’s original question (again). If the reason for the delay is within industry control, then yes it is worth claiming - I don’t think they’ll care that you caught an ever-so-slightly earlier train from Paddington. It’s then up to you whether you think the compensation on offer is enough for you to argue your case if they decline it.
I am broadly in agreement with this. To confirm, 1C92 was delayed by sub-threshold minutes, so deemed within the industry's control. Despite not having the relevant sections of the BR handbook with me, I highly doubt Newbury Racecourse would be classed as an HSS station. Each station would have a classification (sometimes dual) which would determine the service group the journey falls into. The classification of an intermediate station, in this case Newbury, would play no part in this process, even though it may be different.

To address some of the other points raised in the thread, firstly, there is no "should" or "shouldn't" on catching an earlier service than the recommended itinerary, provided that it is not a leg with mandatory reservation. The customer is fully entitled to catch an earlier service if they could make it, obeying time restrictions applicable to the fare paid. It is an absurd notion that the customer must unduly delay himself in order to catch the service on his itinerary in these cases, and completely against the spirit of the compensation regime. This would not apply if the earlier service had no valid connection for an earlier or equivalent arrival time at the destination, in which case it would be deemed that the customer voluntarily delayed himself.

By catching an earlier service, the customer acted reasonably and in good faith by maximising the probability of arriving at his destination on time, so shall not be penalised in the event the railway screwed things up. The argument that they would not have been delayed, with hindsight, had they delayed themselves unnecessarily for the recommended connecting train is a complete red-herring. They were not to know that at the time of arriving at their connecting station.

As for arguments about whether the customer told the truth regarding whether an extended wait was experienced in the case of missing a short-distance connection, it is not for the railway to second guess what the customer may or may not have done. If there were concrete proof that the customer were claiming fraudulently (and I have caught a few in my job, some patently copying information blindly from open data sites), appropriate actions can be taken, otherwise they are contracted to be conveyed to their destination and their words must be taken in having travelled accordingly.
 

Richard Hall

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In the initial email they said contact virgin

I repeated this issue was GWR causing delay and they said


Thank you for your email and ticket information regarding your journey . I’m sorry to hear you were so delayed


I’ve checked the details for you and unfortunately we won’t be able to give you any compensation this time. The delay to your journey was less than 60 minutes. In line with our Passenger’s Charter, we only offer compensation for delays of an hour or more.
 

Richard Hall

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Transport Focus questioned GWR's response and I will get half of 125ish fare back.

Thanks for the help with this
 

yorkie

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Transport Focus questioned GWR's response and I will get half of 125ish fare back.

Thanks for the help with this
No problem. I'm glad to hear the correct result was obtained in the end. :)

I do feel this is an example of where the rail industry sometimes makes it overly complex to claim, and it is clear that some people incorrectly believed that you were not entitled to anything. There should not be anything other than one straightforward Delay Repay scheme which all operators adhere to.

It is crazy, and totally counter-intuitive that we have to consider which services are a descendent of the former FGW "InterCity" operation and which were a descendent of the former "Thames Trains" services in order to work out if a claim is valid.
 

bb21

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Is that not what's currently happening?
It was, until the DfT stuck its meddling paws in, in order to deflect attention away from the masses of negative publicity surrounding the Southern strikes.

So before all TOCs have transferred onto the majorly sensible 30+ Delay Repay, we have started seeing 15+ Delay Repays, for a meagre 1/8 of the ticket price if you have a return ticket. Complete and utter farce.

It's all politics.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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It was, until the DfT stuck its meddling paws in, in order to deflect attention away from the masses of negative publicity surrounding the Southern strikes.

So before all TOCs have transferred onto the majorly sensible 30+ Delay Repay, we have started seeing 15+ Delay Repays, for a meagre 1/8 of the ticket price if you have a return ticket. Complete and utter farce.

It's all politics.

Personally, I'm very happy that I can benefit from a 15+ DR scheme. On my main commuting route, there are 4tph, but they are grouped into two lots of two which depart within minutes of each other - e.g. :00 then :04, :30 then :35. So if you miss one, you are likely to miss the other and have a near 30 minute delay. Yet under the old scheme (and continuing schemes for VTWC et al) I wouldn't get anything.
 

bb21

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Personally, I'm very happy that I can benefit from a 15+ DR scheme. On my main commuting route, there are 4tph, but they are grouped into two lots of two which depart within minutes of each other - e.g. :00 then :04, :30 then :35. So if you miss one, you are likely to miss the other and have a near 30 minute delay. Yet under the old scheme (and continuing schemes for VTWC et al) I wouldn't get anything.
On the face of it, consumer rights won.

Increases in admin costs and the cost of the scheme has to be funded somehow, and it ain't coming from TOC profits.

Swings and roundabouts when you take a broader view. The government hardly did it out of the goodness of the minister's heart.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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On the face of it, consumer rights won.

Increases in admin costs and the cost of the scheme has to be funded somehow, and it ain't coming from TOC profits.

Swings and roundabouts when you take a broader view. The government hardly did it out of the goodness of the minister's heart.

Of course - but it's about the fundamental fairness. The increased costs are part and parcel of this.
 

bb21

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Of course - but it's about the fundamental fairness. The increased costs are part and parcel of this.
It's also about where you draw the line. It is a sucker to just miss out, so what about people who are 14 minutes late under the new scheme? Should the line then be drawn at 10? 5?

There isn't a right and wrong answer where the line should be, but inconsistency is never good.
 
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