Letting passengers off a broken down train- is this impossible?

[Comstock]

Say you even successfully make it to "freedom." You're in the middle of nowhere, you don't know the area, no idea where you are or where the nearest road is and it's starting to rain. Everyone else is sat in a dry, air-conditioned passenger carriage. But not you.

Ah come on, how many places, in England at least, are truly in the 'middle of nowhere'? Checking the sat nav on your smart phone might be a good start?

Anyway, I can't see anywhere to go with this discussion, it's gone way beyond what I orginally intended.

 

[Darandio]

Ah come on, how many places, in England at least, are truly in the 'middle of nowhere'? Checking the sat nav on your smart phone might be a good start?

What if you cannot get a signal?

Although of course there are places in the middle of nowhere.

 

[bb21]

Ah come on, how many places, in England at least, are truly in the 'middle of nowhere'? Checking the sat nav on your smart phone might be a good start?

Anyway, I can't see anywhere to go with this discussion, it's gone way beyond what I orginally intended.

A lot of people have given reasons why it would be a bad idea to leave some passengers "fending for themselves" trackside. Isn't that what you wanted discussing?

 

[Oswyntail]

... I was more aiming my post at the "when the train broke down they should have got things arranged quicker" type posts from the hindsight brigade....

As (I presume) one of these, I would like to point out that, if the picture being depicted by what one assumes are genuine rail professionals on this board is correct, it is astonishing that the rail industry seems to have little concept of incident management. Is it really the case that those managing the response to the incident wait potentially for hours (while a fitter travels to the scene and attempts to diagnose and correct a fault) before even considering what to do if the fitter admits he is baffled? If that is the case, then the industry is in deep trouble. If not, then could someone who actually knows what they are talking about please enlighten us as to what the incident management steps and processes might be.

 

[KA4C]

As (I presume) one of these, I would like to point out that, if the picture being depicted by what one assumes are genuine rail professionals on this board is correct, it is astonishing that the rail industry seems to have little concept of incident management. Is it really the case that those managing the response to the incident wait potentially for hours (while a fitter travels to the scene and attempts to diagnose and correct a fault) before even considering what to do if the fitter admits he is baffled? If that is the case, then the industry is in deep trouble. If not, then could someone who actually knows what they are talking about please enlighten us as to what the incident management steps and processes might be.

The staff on the scene do not manage an incident in isolation, they do so with their relevant controllers overseeing the situation. Don't forget that communications can be difficult, dodgy mobile signals, controllers being on the phone 100% of the time to all and sundry

 

[455driver]

Anyway, I can't see anywhere to go with this discussion, it's gone way beyond what I originally intended.

You mean you have been proved to actually know very little but presume to know much and you also have a very poor understanding about what is possible or practicable to do in these situations?

If that is the case then yes you are correct!

Should the pax have been stuck on the train for 6 hours? No of course they shouldnt.

Should the loco have been mobilised quicker? Yes if it was available sooner, nobody actually knows when it became availabe. As I understand it 59202 was used to rescue another 59 (005 possibly) at Westbury that wouldnt start and hauled its train into the quarry, then 59202 was sent up to Pewsey to rescue the Powercar so I dont think it would have been available any earlier. If anyone can prove any of this info to be inaccurate then please feel free to correct me.

 

[Antman]

Maybe I've been fortunate but the longest I've been trapped on a train was about 25mins and that was bad enough on a hot day. There were passengers considering using the emergency door controls just let some fresh air in. The guard did an excellent job walking up and down the train making sure everybody was alright and keeping us updated.

It was a SET near Otford that had developed some sort of fault, I can't remember what it was but when we reached the four track section at Swanley eveybody was turfed off, most passengers accepted it all in good spirit.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Ah come on, how many places, in England at least, are truly in the 'middle of nowhere'? Checking the sat nav on your smart phone might be a good start?

Loads if you are on the train. Between urban areas the track is often miles from the nearest road. I'll admit I've only skimmed the thread but most of your ideas just seem to be that FGW (or whoever) should just swap one problem for a bunch of others.

 

[Comstock]

You mean you have been proved to actually know very little but presume to know much and you also have a very poor understanding about what is possible or practicable to do in these situations?

If that is the case then yes you are correct!

.

To be fair, I've never claimed to be an expert. I was purely asking if it was neccessary to keep people on an overcrowded train *if* , and only if, they were able and willing to get off it.

If I've sounded arrogant, then I wish to apologise.

 

[NJTom]

Unless i was late for my own wedding, I wouldn't consider using an emergency release to leave the train .. but sitting there that long, you'd better believe I am smoking.

 

[jopsuk]

Unless i was late for my own wedding, I wouldn't consider using an emergency release to leave the train .. but sitting there that long, you'd better believe I am smoking.

if you sparked up in a crowded train with no opening windows and failed venitlation I reckon you'd find yourself being used to open a window. Why in that situation should your addiction trump everyone else's health?

 

[Antman]

Unless i was late for my own wedding, I wouldn't consider using an emergency release to leave the train .. but sitting there that long, you'd better believe I am smoking.

If you wish to smoke might it not be best to get off the train or at least stand next to a fully open door or window?

 

[A-driver]

I doubt in that scenario if you hung out a window anyone would 'do you' for smoking to be honest.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Fend for themselves?!!!
For heavens sake people, lets be sensible about this. People were stuck on a train with power and refreshments for 6 hours. They weren't stranded in the middle of a desert island contemplating cannibalism!
You can't just 'release those who can fend for themselves into the wild' and look after the rest, as I keep on saying you need staff to lead the evacuation or else people will be injured, hit by trains, electrocuted etc.
They won't block the lines for an evacuation like that if it is going tone open ended which leaving people to fend for themselves will be. How do you know when all those people have reached a place of safety etc? Quite simply not enough staff on the train.
Perhaps it's time for this thred to leave fantasy world and get into the imperfect real world.

Well said that man, unfortunately, selfish acts of 'I wanna do what I want' will come in to play. It isn't a question of legality of being kept 'prisoner' on a train for 6 hours, everyone is in the same boat, the train has broken down, as long as the TM/Guard informs everyone of what is happening on a regular basis as and when he/she gets more information and water and food is made available, then, what's the problem, the vast majority of folks in this country don't have any self-discipline these days, not much patience, and have been spoonfed that selfishness is the norm these days, that's why everyone panics when things don't go according to plan. When one attempts 'mutiny' on a stranded train that's when the rot sets in and it's very difficult to quell.
From memory, Sunday afternoon was cool, maximum temperature was about 19 degrees, and a band of rain stretched from Devon right across to Wiltshire at lunchtime, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to get off a train from my nice cosy seat into any rain, those who were standing up should have been offered and 'forced to sit' anywhere on the train, if they knew it was going to take several hours to resolve the train problem, dealing with the general public is easy if you know what to say to them, and how to say it politely and professionally, and railway staff are well trained these days.
Railway Senior Management is virtually non-existant on a Sunday and it's been like that for decades, those who are in 'the office' and in charge know who to contact in cases of emergency, as this wasn't considered an emergency as such then it took longer for the problem to get resolved, if the fitter had managed to unfreeze the brakes, this issue would have reached a speedier conclusion and the media wouldn't have had that much of a story to publicise. And typically, they sight the fact that someone missed their flight to Singapore, whoopee, why didn't they go to Heathrow the day before then, they wouldn't have had to make such a ridiculous journey on the day of travel, but, of course the journalist never asked that question, as it would have taken the gloss off the story they were trying to convey.
I assume the usual line of 'lessons will be learned' will be drawn in the sand, until the next time.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Oswyntail]

..... as this wasn't considered an emergency as such

If this is the case, then someone needs training :roll:.

.....they wouldn't have had to make such a ridiculous journey on the day of travel.....

I do hope that was tongue in cheek. Or do you really suggest that relying on a timetabled service (with due allowance for the odd hiccough) is to be regarded as "ridiculous"?

 

[A-driver]

If this is the case, then someone needs training :roll:. I do hope that was tongue in cheek. Or do you really suggest that relying on a timetabled service (with due allowance for the odd hiccough) is to be regarded as "ridiculous"?

And again you are taking this round in circles with ridiculous comments.

When did it become an emergency? When would you have declared it an emergency personally? After 2 hours? 4 hours? Or, as is the case, after looking back on it and saying 'yes-6 hours was too long' (which no one is disputing.)

I can't see why you think someone needs training over that (except that you seem to believe yourself to be some sort of expert when in actual fact you have no experience if these things whatsoever and are basing your argument entirely on hearsay and rather one sides journalism).

Ok, it's a bit harsh to say you should arrive at an airport a day early but in all honesty, if travelling a fair distance to the airport for a long haul flight you should have insurance. Even if you drove you could end up missing it due to severe traffic/car breaking down etc. (I accept 6 hours is an exceptional delay).

I fail to understand how there are still arguments over this though. We have now heard facts of what happened from the log (they will be impartial and a true account of events before people start and log entries are closely monitored). No one is disputing that 6 hours was unacceptable but people on here seen incapable of understanding that situations like this are very complicated and all the planning in the world won't prevent them or ease the effect of them. And now it's just going round in circles with people refusing to accept this and ignoring the solid evidence and experiences being provided.

 

[Muzer]

And typically, they sight the fact that someone missed their flight to Singapore, whoopee, why didn't they go to Heathrow the day before then, they wouldn't have had to make such a ridiculous journey on the day of travel, but, of course the journalist never asked that question, as it would have taken the gloss off the story they were trying to convey.

I agree with some of your other things, but really? You're expecting a person (possibly a businessman with little spare time, possibly a holidayer with a certain amount of time off work; I don't know) to go to the trouble and expense to stay overnight by an airport just in case the train is delayed for six hours? Really? Leaving in an hour or two of padding, sure, I'd recommend that. But a whole evening? Listen to yourself.

 

[Latecomer]

I have no comments to make on the incident in question except to say that even with controlled evacuations they are fraught with hazards and the potential for injury. Some TOC's do however practice cross-train evacuations and in our case we use on-board wheelchair ramps, ropes and ties. We have also practised end-to-end transfers. There is traction-specific specialist equipment designed for that also. As far as I know it has never had to be put into practice but drivers have been trained for such an eventuality. The side to side transfers do of course depend on the width of the 6 foot for the wheelchair ramp to be usable.

 

[Oswyntail]

And again you are taking this round in circles with ridiculous comments.

Not me, guv!

When did it become an emergency? ..

When it occurred. From the moment it was reported, it had the potential to escalate, and those who would have had responsibility for escalation should have been aware and starting to plan, on the basis of multiple scenarios. Pretty bog-standard service provision procedures.

I can't see why you think someone needs training over that....

No? Well perhaps you are not as experienced in running a service as you like to think you are. It is possible that what I have described did occur - if it did not, someone needs training. Because waiting a few hours to see if a fitter can solve things before contingency planning starts is, well, no way to run a railway

I fail to understand .

At Last! Some self-awareness is creeping in!

 

[A-driver]

Not me, guv!

When it occurred. From the moment it was reported, it had the potential to escalate, and those who would have had responsibility for escalation should have been aware and starting to plan, on the basis of multiple scenarios. Pretty bog-standard service provision procedures.
No? Well perhaps you are not as experienced in running a service as you like to think you are. It is possible that what I have described did occur - if it did not, someone needs training. Because waiting a few hours to see if a fitter can solve things before contingency planning starts is, well, no way to run a railway
At Last! Some self-awareness is creeping in!

Train faults like this are a daily occurance they don't declare an emergency every time a driver phones in a seized brake, unit fault, loss of power etc as the vast majority of incidents like this can be resolved very quickly with minimal inconvenience and delay. There will always be incidents which are more complicated and present more problems like this one. No amount of planning will prevent that. But a train fault is definately not an emergency.

And why bother with that last quote? It's petty and a waste of time and making silly remarks like that only goes to show that you are running out of real points to argue!

 

[455driver]

To be fair, I've never claimed to be an expert. I was purely asking if it was neccessary to keep people on an overcrowded train *if* , and only if, they were able and willing to get off it.

If I've sounded arrogant, then I wish to apologise.

Its just that we get sick of trying to explain to some absolutely thick people (not you I hasten to add) that just letting people off a train onto the trackside is a recipe for disaster but "they" like to make it sound as if it is an easy thing to do, once one person is trackside then all the lines have to be blocked and all trains stopped to protect the stupid/ignorant/arrogant/self centred* berk who considers his own onward transport above the (usually several hundred other people) on his train and all the other trains they have now stopped because of their own selfish actions.

If I have come across as "snappy" in my other posts then I apologise to you, its just that my forehead is getting sore from banging my head against the wall!

* delete as applicable.

 

[Oswyntail]

Train faults like this are a daily occurance they don't declare an emergency every time a driver phones in ... But a train fault is definately not an emergency.

But they should start planning in case it becomes more serious. That planning may well involve experience ("Class 71 brakes always defreeze after 10 minutes"), and you hope the plans become unnecessary. But the impression given on here by many answers is that Plan B is not considered until Plan A has failed, and that can be several hours later. That is in no way how to handle an event, emergency or whatever one calls it.

And why bother with that last quote? It's petty and a waste of time and making silly remarks like that only goes to show that you are running out of real points to argue!

Because, as is too frequently the case, people asking intelligent questions based on relevant experience from outside the industry are met with the old "You know nothing because you do not work on the railways" line, which is generally extremely patronising, often expressed with boorish rudeness, and frequently suggests that the person using it is too hidebound actually to consider outside opinions. Your comments that I have just quoted are equally, if not more applicable to most of your recent contributions to this thread.

 

[yorkie]

Can I ask that passengers and rail staff alike please respect each others' views. We had to lock the other thread, and we will be forced to lock this one too if this goes the same way. Hopefully we can avoid that.

.. but sitting there that long, you'd better believe I am smoking.

and you'd better believe you'd get a strong objection from people like me, as the fumes would go into the coach, which would be totally unacceptable. I do not believe it appropriate to flout the no smoking rules because of an addiction.

 

[millemille]

Every TOC, in conjunction with NR, have developed train evacuation plans that can be enacted if the circumstances demand and allow.

Every incident will have, depending on its severity, varying levels of command and control from the TOC's Operational, Customer Services and Technical/Engineering Departments plus Network Rail and the Emergency Services, if required.

Most TOC's use Bronze, Silver and Gold Command. I'm a Fleet Technical Officer for a TOC and am classed as Bronze Command - I do the the on-scene technical command for minor incidents where there's a single level of response from each TOC department. As soon as the incident requires multiple responders from a TOC department and will significantly impact upon service it escalates to Silver Command and up to Gold Command, which is off site and secure, for major incidents.

Network Rail have a similar layered response and are in charge of the site and safety for all incidents and work hand-in-hand with the TOC.

Scenarios are regularly practised using table top exercises with all plausible, and implausible, variables considered. Something as seemingly insignificant as a disabled passenger can stop an evacuation - unless for a genuine emergency - in its tracks because the risk involved in evacuating that disabled passenger can be greater than leaving everyone in place.

I've been part of two planned evacuations in the last 12 months - both times led and managed by Network Rail NOT the TOC - and had to deal with the consequences of passengers detraining themselves the same number of times.

Evacuating a train can be done, and is done, but is a last resort only if circumstances allow.

 

[185143]

People wouldn't have been charged an upgrade to move to first class seats

My understanding was that people on the train were being charged for the upgrade!

 

[bb21]

My understanding was that people on the train were being charged for the upgrade!

Any source?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Bronze, Silver and Gold Commands are standard for managing incidents across many agencies. Gold create a strategic aim off-site, Silver on site work out how it should be implemented and Bronze run the implementation. This links in nicely with the emergency service command and control structures, and it means appropriate people from other agencies (such as Network Rail or TOCs for example) can be invited to the Gold strategic meetings.

 

[Howardh]

I keep reading that you can't evacuate for fear of px's standing on an adjacent track, so a train might come along and hit them.

Any chance of that elusive train stopping a short distance short of the stranded train, and if there's room, that train taking some (or all) of the stranded passengers back to to the previous station - so (1) they are out of the way and (2) any left, particulary elderly, have more room on the stranded train and anything brought for them (water/food/blankets if necessary) can be easily shared around?

Has this ever happened??

 

[jon0844]

Probably not easy to just walk people along to another train where the doors are high off the ground. And that's not just people with luggage or difficulty walking etc.

 

[bb21]

I keep reading that you can't evacuate for fear of px's standing on an adjacent track, so a train might come along and hit them.

Any chance of that elusive train stopping a short distance short of the stranded train, and if there's room, that train taking some (or all) of the stranded passengers back to to the previous station - so (1) they are out of the way and (2) any left, particulary elderly, have more room on the stranded train and anything brought for them (water/food/blankets if necessary) can be easily shared around?

Has this ever happened??

I'm not sure you are understanding the potential problems.

There are two members of staff and 500 pax. It is very easy for one of them to wander off (even if only a small proportion of that disembarks from the train). You then have to stop all trains as these people are being located. Nowhere near as easy as you might think.