Leuchars to Glasgow via Dundee

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Murphyen, 14 Nov 2011.

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  1. Murphyen

    Murphyen Member

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    Hello all,

    Quick question - is there a permitted route between Leuchars via Dundee to Glasgow, or have the restrictions been relaxed? I've looked at the routing guide maps and the situation seems unclear. Similarly, the easements page states it's not permitted.

    This question arises because the East Coast online system says its possible.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  3. scotsman

    scotsman Established Member

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    If you want to take the route, and EC allows you to buy tickets for that route, then buy them from there - then take a printed copy of the itinery from that website (preferably a screenshot) to show to any Conductor who questions you
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Hmm - not only is EC showing the journey as permitted, it is selling tickets for both routes and it also says that going via Dundee saves between 6 and 26 minutes. Railmiles shows that via Dundee is around 4 miles shorter too.
     
  4. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    There are debates on this forum as to whether the easement is enforceable, as I am sure Leuchars - Dundee - Glasgow is on the shortest route.

    (Table 229) Leuchars - Dundee: 8.25 miles
    (Table 229) Dundee - Perth - Stirling - Glasgow Queen Street: 83.75 miles
    Total: 92 miles

    (Table 229) Leuchars - Ladybank - Kirkcaldy - Inverkeithing: 37.75 miles
    (Table 242) Inverkeithing - Haymarket: 12 miles
    (Table 226) Haymarket - Bathgate - Glasgow Queen Street: 43 miles
    Total: 92.75 miles
     
  5. glenbogle

    glenbogle Member

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    Working in the ticket office, we have always been told that Leu - Glq is NOT valid via Dundee in either direction.
     
  6. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    By what logic?

    I'd ask the boss (or whoever told you) what their calculation of the shortest route is? As the shortest route (plus routes up to 3 miles longer) are always valid. They may just give a "because I said so" excuse, which I wouldn't accept.

    The shortest route is valid according to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage without any need to consult the Routeing Guide.

    Unfortunately ticket offices are sometimes told incorrect information. Southern are particularly bad at this at Gatwick/Victoria, where they will deny that the Gatwick Express branded services are operated by Southern, even though the Press Office, the DfT and the Gatwick Express site all say that they are.
     
  7. glenbogle

    glenbogle Member

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    The fare between Dundee and Glasgow is a good bit dearer than Leuchars to Glasgow, if this fare was valid surely everyone from Dundee would get Leu-Glq tickets instead of Dee-Glq.
    I work in Dundee and this has always been the case.
     
  8. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Fares do not determine validity. In theory there is nothing stopping Dundee travellers buying the Leuchars ticket. The negative easement is unenforceable in my opinion.

    That said, if enough people do it, SR will likely just raise the Leuchars fares to the level of Dundee's fares, unless it is protected.
     
  9. Liam

    Liam Established Member

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    Ladybank-Glasgow via Perth is shorter than via Haymarket, but also appears not to be valid.

    Could this be because of the Dalmeny-Winchburgh line? There is one service each way per day over this line, which would form the shortest route between Fife and Glasgow.
     
  10. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    (All from Table 229)

    Leuchars - Ladybank: 11.75 miles
    Ladybank - Perth: 17.75 miles
    Total: 29.5 miles

    Leuchars - Dundee: 8.25 miles
    Dundee - Perth: 21.25 miles
    Total: 29.5 miles

    Either way doesn't make any difference.

    Do you know the times of the Dalmeny - Winchburgh service? I was struggling to find it earlier.
     
  11. Liam

    Liam Established Member

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    Read my post again.

    0713 Kirkcaldy-Glasgow Queen Street, 1733 Glasgow Queen Street to Kirkcaldy/Markinch
     
  12. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes, I understood your point. I'm saying that it makes no difference to the shortest route calculation.
     
  13. Liam

    Liam Established Member

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    I'm not sure you do. I was simply stating that Ladybank to Glasgow is shorter via Perth than Haymarket, but doesn't seem to be a valid route. It's got nothing to do with Leuchars.

    FWIW Ladybank-Perth 17m66c, Perth-Glasgow Queen Street via Lenzie 62m47c. Ladybank-Haymarket 37m54c, Haymarket-Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High 46m04c. 80m33c versus 83m58c.
     
  14. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I wasn't saying that your point wasn't valid. I was talking about something separate using your information. I probably didn't make it clear.

    That said, there is no mileage entry for Dalmeny - Linlithgow, as with all other services that are not 'regular' in a passenger's eyes. If it had existed, no doubt that would be the shortest route.
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The CDR fare between York and Sheffield is dearer than York to Shireoaks, if this was valid, surely everyone from Sheffield would get Shireoaks-York tickets rather than Sheffield-York tickets...?;)

    Well, no, I don't think they do, because not everyone knows about it! But I know a few people who use these tickets.

    I have used an example that can't easily be changed (via Sheffield is permitted on the shortest route rule, and Sheffield passes the fares check rule, but the Shireoaks fare is set by EC, and if XC/NT were to request the Shireoaks fare be increased, then that could be considered collusion, and as EC are subject to FOI, that wouldn't be a wise thing for them to do!)
     
  16. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    This statement implies that a route is not the shortest route unless the distance can be calculated from the National Rail Timetable. I don't agree with that.

    The National Routeing Guide Instructions tell us "The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable." That does not mean that the shortest route ceases to be the shortest route if an error or omission in the National Rail Timetable means that the distance cannot be calculated using that document alone.

    For quick calculations, I use railmiles to work out these missing distances. But if I intend to travel by such a shortest route, I print out the distance from an authorised source. At present I use Table A from Network Rail's electronic Sectional Appendix, which was placed on their site in 2009. WARNING: These are very large files!

    A Leuchars - Glasgow Cen/QSt route Any Permitted ticket is valid, at the passenger's choice, to either Glasgow Central or Glasgow Queen Street. By my calculations, permitted routes are:
    1. The route taken by a through train, when travelling on such a train
      There are none in the current timetable.
      .
    2. The shortest route
      For Leuchars - Glasgow Queen Street, this is Leuchars - Ladybank - Kirkcaldy - Burntisland - Inverkeithing - Dalmeny - (Kirkliston) - Linlithgow - Falkirk High - Croy - Glasgow Queen Street. (approx 81 miles)
      For Leuchars - Glasgow Central, this is For Leuchars - Glasgow Queen Street as above, then Glasgow Queen Street (Low Level) - Partick - Glasgow Central (Low Level). (approx 85.5 miles)

      The journey opportunities by the shortest route are very limited:
      Additional changes are needed at Linlithgow to complete the journey by the shortest route because the direct Kirkcaldy - Glasgow Queen Street train is routed via Falkirk Grahamston, not Falkirk High.

      This raises the question of what is the shortest route when there is no service via Kirkliston. When there is no railway service at all by that route on any day on which a ticket is valid, then I have no doubt that another route is the shortest route for the purposes of that ticket. This applies to Day tickets and the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets dated for a Saturday or Sunday. Whether it applies at times of the day when there is no service via Kirkliston is a matter of interpretation. The journey planners have different interpretations here.

      I agree with bb21 that the shortest route avoiding Kirkliston is via Dundee (92 miles).
      .
    3. A route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route
      This allows travel via Dunfermline instead of Kirkcaldy and/or Falkirk Grahamston instead of Falkirk High.

      On days when the shortest route is via Dundee, routes not more than 3 miles longer include
      • via Ladybank, Newburgh and Perth
      • via Haymarket and Bathgate
      • via Haymarket and Falkirk High, and
      • via Haymarket and Falkirk Grahamston.
      .
    4. A route permitted by an Easement
      I can't find any.
      .
    5. A route excluded by a (negative) Easement
      Easement 46 purports to exclude travel via Dundee.
      But this cannot apply on days when the shortest route is via Dundee because the NRG tells us we don't need to consult the NRG when travelling by the shortest route - it's always valid. I think this is the reason some journey planners allow travel via Dundee.
     
  17. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    I wonder if at some point ATOC will alter the Conditions of Carriage in such a way as to make negative easements such as this enforcable (and to make journeys such as Haymarket-Waverly via the Fife circle, and other such circular journies, non-valid). I wouldn't be surprised if it is something that is already being worked on, carefully with lawyers involved.

    It is quite clear here that they want you to travel via Haymarket, yet I'm persuaded by the well set out arguments here that the letter of the rules means that they cannot enforce this.

    I'd bet that most travllers making this journey would automatically default to going via Haymarket, as it seems the "sensible" route- despite it being physically longer and taking longer!
     
  18. D6975

    D6975 Established Member

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    The route taken by a through train, when travelling on such a train

    Love that one, as someone points out, that makes Haymarket-Waverley valid round the Fife circle.
    Likewise, Leeds-Wakefield Kirkgate is valid via Bradford and Huddersfield.
    I'm sure we could come up with quite a few like that.

    Many years ago I used to do Bristol TM - Newport on a Caldicot ticket because it was cheaper and at the time, Newport-Caldicot services didn't stop at STJ, so you had to go via Newport..
     
  19. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Thanks John. I do not use railmiles for such calculation as it is not official, however the Network Rail table definitely is, and will be useful in circumstances like this.
     
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