Life after the end of "lockdown" 2.0

yorksrob

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Once the over 65s have been vaccinated, what terrifying death rates exist to justify the eternal lockdown are essentially gone.

Which means there will be no political capital in maintaining restrictions, the virus will be allowed to burn through.

Precisely. Once those most likely to end up in hospital are vaccinated, the transmission rate amongst everyone else will be of little consequence for the NHS. Lockdown should be dead and buried.

And probably need a single annual booster shot for ever more.

It is to early to say what will happen at this stage as we still have much to learn about covid and vaccines but some light touch measures mitigations remaining is quite likely, but that shouldn't be a hard sell.

It's hard to see what "light touch restrictions" actually seem viable. Mitigation of the virus seems to be "mix with other people or not", and since not mixing with other people is fundamentally against human nature, it must not be continued as a long term strategy.
 
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LAX54

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The population have had it embedded into their minds that a vaccine is the only way out of all restrictions/normality returning. Even if a vaccine doesn't stop transmission but at least protects those most vulnerable from death/hospitalisation with the virus, more and more people will question the whole strategy if what they've been told for so long doesn't come to fruition. Flu strains collectively are widely circulating every winter, but we only vaccinate the most vulnerable to protect them as much as possible, while we never shut down society every winter because of it.

Many try to compare Covid to Flu, when in reality I think Covid is much more comparable to Pneumonia: in the early stages of Covid's prevalence it was mistaken for Pneumonia, while many who've died with it had other underlying conditions, where the latter is known as "the old man's friend" for a very good reason.

Flu can lead to Pneumonia, , but then so does Covid, that can lead to Pneumonia too,which I think is the 'killer' part, C-19 is not good, which I think most agree with, most pass way from other illnesses, as stated,
maybe we need to stop this reporting of 'died from ANY cause in the last 28 days, that have had a positve test'
However how long can the World keep running away from the virus ?
The jab I suppose will be annual, same as the flu jab, as long as we do not go down the MMR 'scare' route !
 

hwl

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Precisely. Once those most likely to end up in hospital are vaccinated, the transmission rate amongst everyone else will be of little consequence for the NHS. Lockdown should be dead and buried.
Lockdown will be dead and buried at that stage but not all restrictions, might I suggest everyone starts doing their own calculations to assess the impact of vaccination with a range of realistic assumptions, it might change a few views once people have done that - it still is of consequence to the NHS just less than now. "Vaccination is not a silver bullet" has been quoted plenty of times in the more informed media in the last 10 days.

It's a fringe view here, but seems more common in the US. A lot of people like Fauci seem to genuinely think masks and social distancing should continue even after a vaccine is distributed.
I suspect the government has been more than happy to let everyone think that a vaccine is a total single solution when it is probably and 80%+ one, but I suspect it will come back to bite them unless many of the vaccines perform way better than expected on transmission risk.

The government like simple messages and solutions but reality is often more complex.

I suspect we'll soon discover that the R value is seasonal and higher in winter.
 
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Yew

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Where is anyone suggesting societal reconstruction post mass vaccination (inc. phase 2)?
A few minor adjustments in the medium and longer terms is not societal reconstruction. Resetting to things exactly as they were before Feb 2020 isn't going to happen.

Internet retail was taking share from physical any way, it has just done 4-5 years worth of growth in one year (comparing shops open periods). Many restaurant chains were already in trouble pre-covid, the main effect in those cases was pressing the fast forward button on the changes that were already happening.
I think there are two issues that often get conflated when we talk about this:

- Legal restrictions on ordinary human interactions
- Societal developments that might have happened anyway, and will not be enforced through the law.

Lockdown will be dead and buried at that stage but not all restrictions, might I suggest everyone starts doing their own calculations to assess the impact of vaccination with a range of realistic assumptions, it might change a few views once people have done that - it still is of consequence to the NHS just less than now. "Vaccination is not a silver bullet" has been quoted plenty of times in the more informed media in the last 10 days.

I suspect the government has been more than happy to let everyone think that a vaccine is a total single solution when it is probably and 80%+ one, but I suspect it will come back to bite them unless many of the vaccines perform way better than expected on transmission risk.

The government like simple messages and solutions but reality is often more complex.

I suspect we'll soon discover that the R value is seasonal and higher in winter.
If it's an 80% solution, and apparently Covid is 10 times as bad as 'normal' flu (which I would dispute, most recent research suggests much lower numbers) suddenly those numbers cancel out
 

6Gman

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I fully expect countries to make vaccination a requirement of entry. That's fine, if you don't want to have the vaccine, don't go to that country.
I can't see their being any restrictions on sports stadia etc in the UK. I'm not sure that would even be legal.
Sports stadia are private property. They can set any rules they like (subject, of course, to equality legislation).

So the only ground for challenging any rule would be if it were discriminatory in terms of protected characteristics such as race, religion or sexual orientation.
 

DavidB

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Sports stadia are private property. They can set any rules they like (subject, of course, to equality legislation).

So the only ground for challenging any rule would be if it were discriminatory in terms of protected characteristics such as race, religion or sexual orientation.

And how exactly would they check that thousands of people at a football match had been vaccinated? It would be unworkable as well as an invasion of privacy.
 

hwl

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I think there are two issues that often get conflated when we talk about this:

- Legal restrictions on ordinary human interactions
- Societal developments that might have happened anyway, and will not be enforced through the law.


If it's an 80% solution, and apparently Covid is 10 times as bad as 'normal' flu (which I would dispute, most recent research suggests much lower numbers) suddenly those numbers cancel out
The comparison was with a new flu strain, we massively try to mitigate against flu with annual vaccines so imagine the comparisons with no flu vaccine to the situation rather than where we massively reduce the impact.

The 10x factor was BBC number, I'd go with 8x myself but care needs to be taken to do it on like for like basis which many fail on.
 

yorksrob

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Lockdown will be dead and buried at that stage but not all restrictions, might I suggest everyone starts doing their own calculations to assess the impact of vaccination with a range of realistic assumptions, it might change a few views once people have done that - it still is of consequence to the NHS just less than now. "Vaccination is not a silver bullet" has been quoted plenty of times in the more informed media in the last 10 days.


I suspect the government has been more than happy to let everyone think that a vaccine is a total single solution when it is probably and 80%+ one, but I suspect it will come back to bite them unless many of the vaccines perform way better than expected on transmission risk.

The government like simple messages and solutions but reality is often more complex.

I suspect we'll soon discover that the R value is seasonal and higher in winter.

Yes I agree that vaccination is not a silver bullet - in that there will be a certain element of risk to those of us not high risk enough to be vaccinated - it will be a liveable risk.

The silver bullet will be that when enough vulnerable people are vaccinated, the NHS will not be at risk of being overrun.

The comparison was with a new flu strain, we massively try to mitigate against flu with annual vaccines so imagine the comparisons with no flu vaccine to the situation rather than where we massively reduce the impact.

The 10x factor was BBC number, I'd go with 8x myself but care needs to be taken to do it on like for like basis which many fail on.

But we don't do anything to fundamentally change the workings of society for a new flu strain, that is the key.
 

6Gman

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And how exactly would they check that thousands of people at a football match had been vaccinated? It would be unworkable as well as an invasion of privacy.
No idea.

I was just pointing out that it wouldn't be illegal.
 

sharpinf

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And how exactly would they check that thousands of people at a football match had been vaccinated? It would be unworkable as well as an invasion of privacy.


It seems "no vaccine no entry" has morphed into "no negative tests, no entry"


Exclusive: Two Covid tests a week could win people a 'freedom pass'​

People are set to be given "freedom passes" to allow them to live as normal a life as possible as long as they have two negative coronavirus tests a week, under a plan to get the country back to normal next year.
Under the scheme, which is still being developed by Whitehall officials, people could be given the passes as long as they can show they have been regularly tested for Covid-19.
People who are found to be Covid-free would be given a card, a letter or document that can be stored on their phone to show they can move around. Regular tests would be needed to ensure that they qualify for the certificates.

A source familiar with the plans said that the scheme would allow people to lead as normal a life as possible while the Government's vaccine programme gets up to speed on a mass scale early in the new year.
The source said: "They will allow someone to wander down the streets, and if someone else asks why they are not wearing a mask, they can show the card, letter or an App."
The source added that the passes would allow people "to see their family, and normal social distancing rules will not apply".
The plan has already received the backing of Jeremy Hunt, the former Health Secretary, who last week said he supported "offering people who comply with testing and isolation requirements a 'freedom pass' that removes the requirement to follow lockdown regulations".
Mr Hunt also urged Boris Johnson to set an Easter deadline to return to a more normal life through mass testing with rapid home testing kits, even if vaccines have not come through by then.
Mr Hunt has been urging the Government to go further and give people an incentive to be tested by allowing them “to go out, shop and go to work” if they test negative.
The Government will have to be carrying out millions of tests a day for the freedom pass scheme to work.
Ministers have been making steady progress so far, with the Government successfully hitting its target of being able to carry out 500,000 coronavirus tests a day across the UK by the end of last month.
A report in the British Medical Journal in September claimed that ministers were hoping to be carrying out up to 10 million Covid-19 tests a day by early next year as part of a £100 billion expansion of its national testing programme.
If achieved, the programme would allow testing of the entire UK population per week.
A similar scheme to the freedom passes was first mooted in April when ministers were said to be looking at issuing immunity certificates to people who have developed resistance to coronavirus.
Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, said: “(An immunity certificate) is an important thing that we will be doing and are looking at but it’s too early in the science of the immunity that comes from having had the disease.”
“It’s too early in that science to be able to put clarity around that. I wish that we could but the reason that we can’t is because the science isn’t yet advanced enough.”

That same month the World Health Organisation (WHO) warned governments against issuing “immunity passports” to people who have been infected as their accuracy could not be guaranteed.
The WHO said issuing the certificates could inspire false confidence and increase the risk of spreading the virus. People who have recovered may ignore advice about taking precautions against the virus.
On Saturday night a Department for Health and Social Care spokesman said that guidance on infection and control measures was "constantly under review to ensure we can return to normality as soon as possible while controlling the spread of the virus".
The quote that "this will allow someone to wander down the streets, and if someone else asks why they are not wearing a mask, they can show the card, letter or an App." is especially chilling

One time I hope our governments incompetence is a benefit and means it is impossible to get this off the ground
 

PTR 444

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What would be much better is a clearly thought out exit strategy detailing a coherent plan for the next six months. This would be my plan assuming all goes well with the vaccine:

  • December 3rd: Lockdown lifted and replaced with nationwide tier 3 restrictions.
  • December 23rd - January 2nd: Up to 12 people from a maximum of four households allowed to merge into a single bubble over the Christmas and New Year period.
  • January 31st: England moved down to nationwide tier 2 restrictions. 10pm pub curfew lifted.
  • February 28th: England moved down to nationwide tier 1 restrictions. Limited numbers of spectators allowed in stadiums.
  • March 28th: Face masks no longer mandated in public. Workers encouraged to return to office.
  • April 25th: Rule of 6 and 2 metre guidance lifted.
  • May 30th: Mass gathering events allowed to resume.
 
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Boris Johnson is poised to announce up to a week of freedom from COVID-19 restrictions at Christmas - but tough rules will remain in force in England after the national lockdown ends on 2 December.

The aim - subject to agreement from the governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - is for a UK-wide relaxation of rules, reportedly from December 22 to 28, so that several families can join in one "bubble".

It is also likely that, under the "four nations" plan, families will be allowed to attend Christmas church services and that pubs and restaurants may be able to open for a limited period over the holiday period.

The prime minister, still isolating in Downing Street, will chair a rare Sunday afternoon Cabinet meeting, and then on Monday he will make a Commons statement to MPs and publish his "COVID Winter Plan".

Foreshadowing the PM's Commons statement, Number 10 said: "It will also set out how people will be able to see their loved ones at Christmas, despite ministers being clear this will not be a normal festive period."

Ahead of the Cabinet meeting, First Ministers Arlene Foster, Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford held a meeting with Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove "on a UK-wide approach to celebrate Christmas despite COVID".

Ms Foster, Northern Ireland's first minister, disclosed that during the meeting she outlined the need for extra flexibility to help those travelling in either direction between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

But Downing Street has also confirmed that while some local measures will be similar to those in place previously, the tiers will be strengthened in some areas to safeguard gains made during the national lockdown.

Ministers will announce on Thursday which areas in England will be in each tier, but the government has signalled that more areas will be in higher tiers to keep the virus under control and avoid another national shutdown.

"Everyone's efforts during the current national restrictions have helped bring the virus back under control, slowed its spread and eased pressures on the NHS," a Number 10 spokesperson said.

"But the prime minister and his scientific advisors are clear the virus is still present - and without regional restrictions it could quickly run out of control again before vaccines and mass testing have had an effect.

"That would put in jeopardy the progress the country has made, and once again risk intolerable pressure on the NHS."

The plans emerged as the government announced a further 341 coronavirus deaths, bringing the UK total to 54,626.

Saturday's figure was down on the previous day, when 511 deaths were recorded, as well as last Saturday's total of 462 deaths.

The Office for National Statistics has said the number of coronavirus infections in England appears to have "levelled off" in recent weeks.

According to Number 10, Mr Johnson will tell MPs the pre-Christmas restrictions will not last any longer than absolutely necessary and will take into account the need to protect livelihoods and support the economy.

He will pledge that the tiers will be reviewed on a regular basis and there will be a Commons vote on the three-tier system before it comes into force.

But rebel Tory MPs have served notice that they are preparing to oppose the prime minister's plans for restrictions to replace the national lockdown without extensive evidence they will save more lives than they cost.

The COVID recovery group (CRG), led by former chief whip Mark Harper and ex-Brexit minister Steve Baker, is threatening to withhold support for the prime minister's measures when the four-week lockdown in England expires on 2 December.

The pair have written to Mr Johnson with their demands, in a letter it is claimed has been signed by 70 Conservative MPs, though the individuals have not been identified.

In the letter, the MPs complain: "Even the tiered system of restrictions infringes deeply upon people's lives with huge health and economic costs.

"We cannot support this approach further unless the government demonstrates the restrictions proposed for after December 2 will have an impact on slowing the transmission of COVID, and will save more lives than they cost."

They called for the government to publish a "full cost-benefit analysis" of the proposed restrictions, as they warn "the lockdown cure prescribed runs the very real risk of being worse than the disease".

They also raise specific concerns about outside sport, the 10pm curfew for pubs and restaurants, closure of non-essential retail and care home visits.

"We cannot live under such a series of damaging lockdowns and apparently arbitrary restrictions, and expect our constituents to be grateful for being let out to enjoy the festive season, only to have strict restrictions imposed on them afterwards that cause them health problems and destroy their livelihoods," the MPs wrote.

In his Commons statement, Mr Johnson will claim recent positive developments on vaccines and mass testing provide real confidence that economic and social restrictions to control coronavirus can be gradually reduced in the run-up to Spring.

The prime minister will confirm that, provided vaccines are approved by regulators, the first injections can be made next month before being rolled out more widely in the new year.

And despite the failings of the government's much criticised test and trace system, the PM will also claim progress in mass testing is expected to help provide a way to suppress the virus and relax restrictions.

The government's scientific advisers, SAGE, are likely to publish further papers on Monday, setting out the scientific advice that the previous tiers were not strong enough, and that a tougher regional approach is required.

Downing Street added: "The COVID Winter Plan will also set out how scientific advances in vaccination, treatments and testing will help enable life to gradually return closer to normal.

"Next month, the vaccination programme will begin - provided regulators approve the vaccines - and increases in mass testing will allow us to identify and isolate people who don't have symptoms.

"It is the prime minister's hope and belief that progress in mass testing can - if everyone continues to pull together - provide a way to suppress the virus and relax restrictions until a vaccine becomes available."

On Wednesday, Chancellor Rishi Sunak will announce in his Spending Review a £3bn one-year package to support the NHS in tackling the impact of COVID-19.

According to the Treasury, £1bn will be to tackle backlogs and allow patients who have experienced delays this year to be fast-tracked and treated for non-urgent procedures.

Mr Sunak will also announce £325m next year for NHS diagnostics, which could replace more than two-thirds of older screening equipment and help diagnose patients with cancer and other serious illnesses.

And around £500m will fund a Winter Mental Health Plan, helping to support mental health referrals delayed due to the pressures of pandemic and support measures to invest in NHS workers.
(my bold)

The cynic in me believes that this Christmas relaxation is only so politicians can meet with their family without being caught flouting any rules. The majority of the general population will do whatever they want.
 

yorksrob

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It seems "no vaccine no entry" has morphed into "no negative tests, no entry"



The quote that "this will allow someone to wander down the streets, and if someone else asks why they are not wearing a mask, they can show the card, letter or an App." is especially chilling

One time I hope our governments incompetence is a benefit and means it is impossible to get this off the ground
It is indeed chilling. Having walked down my street during the first lockdown without fear of being challenged about not wearing a mask outdoors, the idea that this would be acceptable when the danger of the NHS being overwhelmed has receeded is shocking.

The people coming up with this should be offered a decent redundency package so that they can go somewhere less damaging.
 

brad465

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What would be much better is a clearly thought out exit strategy detailing a coherent plan for the next six months. This would be my plan assuming all goes well with the vaccine:

  • December 3rd: Lockdown lifted and replaced with nationwide tier 3 restrictions.
  • December 23rd - January 2nd: Up to 12 people from a maximum of four households allowed to merge into a single bubble over the Christmas and New Year period.
  • January 31st: England moved down to nationwide tier 2 restrictions. 10pm pub curfew lifted.
  • February 28th: England moved down to nationwide tier 1 restrictions. Limited numbers of spectators allowed in stadiums.
  • March 28th: Face masks no longer mandated in public. Workers encouraged to return to office.
  • April 25th: Rule of 6 and 2 metre guidance lifted.
  • May 30th: Mass gathering events allowed to resume.
I have some slight give or take with that plan and different timings (mainly lift things a bit earlier than that), however I do completely agree there needs to be a plan that sees a full strategy to get all restrictions lifted, however long it takes. If the population can at least see light at the end of the tunnel, public morale (and in turn compliance) will greatly improve. Of course such a plan needs to be subjected to intense scrutiny and checks throughout hopeful delivery.
 

yorksrob

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What would be much better is a clearly thought out exit strategy detailing a coherent plan for the next six months. This would be my plan assuming all goes well with the vaccine:

  • December 3rd: Lockdown lifted and replaced with nationwide tier 3 restrictions.
  • December 23rd - January 2nd: Up to 12 people from a maximum of four households allowed to merge into a single bubble over the Christmas and New Year period.
  • January 31st: England moved down to nationwide tier 2 restrictions. 10pm pub curfew lifted.
  • February 28th: England moved down to nationwide tier 1 restrictions. Limited numbers of spectators allowed in stadiums.
  • March 28th: Face masks no longer mandated in public. Workers encouraged to return to office.
  • April 25th: Rule of 6 and 2 metre guidance lifted.
  • May 30th: Mass gathering events allowed to resume.
Tier 3 restrictions are pointless. Tier 2 ban people mixing indoors, might as well start with these (not that I agree with them anyway).
 
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philosopher

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I think there are two issues that often get conflated when we talk about this:

- Legal restrictions on ordinary human interactions
- Societal developments that might have happened anyway, and will not be enforced through the law.


If it's an 80% solution, and apparently Covid is 10 times as bad as 'normal' flu (which I would dispute, most recent research suggests much lower numbers) suddenly those numbers cancel out
The legal restrictions such as restrictions on gatherings, the pub early closing time and requirements to wear face masks in certain locations should definitely be removed as soon as there is no risk of the NHS becoming overwhelmed from this. I do expect the legal restrictions will gradually be eased next year and there hopefully be none in place by next Autumn.

That said, even when all the legal restrictions have gone, I do wonder if there will permanent behavioral changes from this that a year ago would have been seen as unthinkable. For example will there be a societal expectation to wear face masks in crowded places such as on public transport, or will large indoor gatherings be frowned upon. Personally I do not think the aforementioned two examples will occur, but since some are advocating changes such as these, I do not think societal changes like these can be ruled out.
 
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Yew

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The legal restrictions such as restrictions on gatherings, the pub early closing time and requirements to wear face masks in certain locations should definitely be removed as soon as there is no risk of the NHS becoming overwhelmed from this. I do expect the legal restrictions will gradually be eased next year and there hopefully be none in place by the Autumn.

That said, even when all the legal restrictions have gone, I do wonder if there will permanent behavioral changes from this that a year ago would have been seen as unthinkable. For example will there be a societal expectation to wear face masks in crowded places such as on public transport, or will large indoor gatherings be frowned upon. Personally I do not think the aforementioned two examples will occur, but since some are advocating changes such as these, I do not think societal changes like these can be ruled out.
We said that about restrictions this autumn?

Spanish flu didn't cause societal changes?
 

bramling

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It seems "no vaccine no entry" has morphed into "no negative tests, no entry"



The quote that "this will allow someone to wander down the streets, and if someone else asks why they are not wearing a mask, they can show the card, letter or an App." is especially chilling

Yes that is quite chilling, the idea that it’s somehow normal for someone to ask why you’re not wearing a mask, and likewise any notion that someone should have to pander to them by showing them a card or something.

The worst aspect of all this has been this culture where some people suddenly think it’s okay to interfere with others. I fear it’s going to take some time to shake it off.
 

bengley

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Where is anyone suggesting societal reconstruction post mass vaccination (inc. phase 2)?
A few minor adjustments in the medium and longer terms is not societal reconstruction. Resetting to things exactly as they were before Feb 2020 isn't going to happen.

Internet retail was taking share from physical any way, it has just done 4-5 years worth of growth in one year (comparing shops open periods). Many restaurant chains were already in trouble pre-covid, the main effect in those cases was pressing the fast forward button on the changes that were already happening.
Lmao long term life is not going to change as a result of this virus.

People will not allow it. People are people and will carry on as they were before. Most already are.
 

Crossover

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So if the leaks are to be believed, we may go from Lockdown 2 to tighter tiers. So a continuation of lockdown for many then, in all but name...
 

Bantamzen

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Where is anyone suggesting societal reconstruction post mass vaccination (inc. phase 2)?
A few minor adjustments in the medium and longer terms is not societal reconstruction. Resetting to things exactly as they were before Feb 2020 isn't going to happen.

Internet retail was taking share from physical any way, it has just done 4-5 years worth of growth in one year (comparing shops open periods). Many restaurant chains were already in trouble pre-covid, the main effect in those cases was pressing the fast forward button on the changes that were already happening.
Losing millions of jobs is hardly what I would call "minor adjustments". But hey, so long as you aren't inconvenienced its all OK yeah?
 

trebor79

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While several vaccines currently show 90+% effectiveness at preventing infections in the vaccinated person, we still have no data on the other important point: the effect on transmission rates.
Prof Sahin's (one of the developers of the "Pfizer" vaccine) "best guess" (his words) just over a week ago was 50% reduction in transmission rate (i.e. 50% of vaccinated people can still spread it after being vaccinated, presumably the 10% who still get infected + 40% of those who haven't shown measurable signs of infection).
Apparently the Wuhan may testing of 10 million people found 330 asymptomatic cases. There wasn't a single example of a close contact of an asymptomatic person testing positive.
This suggests it's highly likely that symptomatic people don't spread the virus.
 

Smidster

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Lmao long term life is not going to change as a result of this virus.

People will not allow it. People are people and will carry on as they were before. Most already are.

Yes, it absolutely will.

Some of what changes may just be speeding up stuff that was already happening but it is naive to think it will be like we all hibernated for a year.

For example the movement to remote working and online shopping will absolutely continue. While it hasn't suited everyone many will want to retain the advantages of those things.
 

philosopher

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Yes, it absolutely will.

Some of what changes may just be speeding up stuff that was already happening but it is naive to think it will be like we all hibernated for a year.

For example the movement to remote working and online shopping will absolutely continue. While it hasn't suited everyone many will want to retain the advantages of those things.
Pesonally long term I think the following will happen:

Online shopping will be a lot bigger, however a shift to online shopping was already occurring. Covid-19 has merely accelerated the trend to online by a few years.

Remote working will become more prevalent with office workers perhaps working on average about half the time at home, though this will vary with some sticking to the office full time, others going near fully remote.

Most hospitality and entertainment industries will go back to something like they were before, albeit many restaurants, pubs and cafes will operate under new names. Those dependent on office workers will likely suffer. The cinema industry will probably be permanently diminished, as film producers increasingly release films on streaming and at cinema at the same time.

Mask wearing will become more common, though I suspect in general it will only be those who have colds and other similar illnesses who wear one.

Large gatherings will continue, however many people will be reluctant to attend them, particularly if indoors. This reluctance will fade as the years go by though.
 

yorksrob

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So it seems that we will be going into "tougher" tiers.

SAGE have obviously succeeded in hoodwinking Government that tier 3 actually makes a meaningful difference. Hopefully we'll see them hauled up in front of a select committee one day.

We await to see what drivel eminates from them.
 

Richard Scott

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So it seems that we will be going into "tougher" tiers.

SAGE have obviously succeeded in hoodwinking Government that tier 3 actually makes a meaningful difference. Hopefully we'll see them hauled up in front of a select committee one day.

We await to see what drivel eminates from them.
But will many people take much notice? My recent observations suggest quite a number are just going about their business as normally as they can subject to the obvious restrictions like mask wearing. I think quite a few have no idea what the restrictions mean and just carry on. In the end the Government will just lose control of all this and life will head back towards normality by default?
 

yorksrob

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But will many people take much notice? My recent observations suggest quite a number are just going about their business as normally as they can subject to the obvious restrictions like mask wearing. I think quite a few have no idea what the restrictions mean and just carry on. In the end the Government will just lose control of all this and life will head back towards normality by default?
I'd like to think so, but in effect if Government close everything, we can't do anything about it.
 

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