Line reopened weekdays between Dover and Folkestone following sea damage

[najaB]

Nothing further heard about a re-opening as being the end of 2016 as previously suggested.

The work, as described, is probably a three to four month job. So you'd be looking at July/August for reopening. Earlier if they work round the clock.

 

[Cletus]

Let's hope so!
(seen an internet rumour of 16th December).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did Storm Katie cause any problems in the site area?

 

[Cletus]

I don't think so. I don't think the weather was too bad here (although I was out of town Sunday and Monday).

I get most of my information from here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106504-folkestone-dover-sea-wall-wash-out/page-39

There's no mention of any weather problems.

 

[paul1609]

The work, as described, is probably a three to four month job. So you'd be looking at July/August for reopening. Earlier if they work round the clock.

Thats not the rumours circulating locally they are suggesting December or New year 2017. Apparently Network Rail are investigating the politics of abandoning Folkestone central to Dover Priory as well!

 

[najaB]

Thats not the rumours circulating locally they are suggesting December or New year 2017.

There must be more work than described above then. I can't see why it would take eight months to drive 100 piles and pour a concrete raft.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Thats not the rumours circulating locally they are suggesting December or New year 2017. Apparently Network Rail are investigating the politics of abandoning Folkestone central to Dover Priory as well!

I can't imagine abandoning the railway altogether would go down well at all.

 

[yorksrob]

I think closure would be a disastrous decision, particularly given the huge amount of investment that was undertaken to stabilise the section west of Shakespeare tunnel in the twentieth century.


Opposition would be huge.

Given that the route was effectively downgraded from mainline to secondary status with the opening of the channel tunnel, it wouldn't be long before people began to see potential parallels with the classic network vis a vis HS2, therefore pursuing such a course would be politically very damaging for that project.

 

[MedwayValiant]

But for that very reason, there may be political pressure for that decision to be taken this summer if it is to be taken at all.

Whether rightly or wrongly - and I don't plan to go down that particular road - the people of Dover and Folkestone would blame the government for it. Both Dover and Folkestone currently have MPs from the Blue Team, and the Dover one doesn't have a particularly big majority. Therefore, the Blue Team's election experts would want to get the bad news out of the way now, in the hope that people will have forgotten about it by the time of the next election.

 

[YorkshireBear]

But for that very reason, there may be political pressure for that decision to be taken this summer if it is to be taken at all.

Whether rightly or wrongly - and I don't plan to go down that particular road - the people of Dover and Folkestone would blame the government for it. Both Dover and Folkestone currently have MPs from the Blue Team, and the Dover one doesn't have a particularly big majority. Therefore, the Blue Team's election experts would want to get the bad news out of the way now, in the hope that people will have forgotten about it by the time of the next election.

Don't think people would forget that decision particularly quickly....

 

[yorksrob]

But for that very reason, there may be political pressure for that decision to be taken this summer if it is to be taken at all.

Whether rightly or wrongly - and I don't plan to go down that particular road - the people of Dover and Folkestone would blame the government for it. Both Dover and Folkestone currently have MPs from the Blue Team, and the Dover one doesn't have a particularly big majority. Therefore, the Blue Team's election experts would want to get the bad news out of the way now, in the hope that people will have forgotten about it by the time of the next election.

There will be plenty of people willing to remind them, make no mistake.

 

[fflint]

Looks like the line could be open by December 2016 if this report from Dover Marine is right

http://www.facebook.com/Dover-Marinacom-161119827419486/

 

[najaB]

Looks like the line could be open by December 2016 if this report from Dover Marine is right...

That link is to their main page, not a specific report/post.

 

[dviner]

I think closure would be a disastrous decision, particularly given the huge amount of investment that was undertaken to stabilise the section west of Shakespeare tunnel in the twentieth century.

Sunk Cost Fallacy. Previous investment shouldn't be a major influence on subsequent investment - especially for something that you can't flog off for a profit after the subsequent investment. However, (there's always a "but"), the railways will always be a cost centre (like the NHS), so there are non-profit influences on whether the investment should be made.

 

[Darren R]

Thats not the rumours circulating locally they are suggesting December or New year 2017. Apparently Network Rail are investigating the politics of abandoning Folkestone central to Dover Priory as well!

Someone wiser than me once said never believe anything that begins with the word "apparently!" Why would Network Rail be expending time, money and resources on reopening the line if they are going to close it?

As for rumours about how long the work will take, similar rumours were reported about Lamington Viaduct near Lockerbie: right up to the point when it opened - ahead of schedule.

 

[embers25]

Why would Network Rail be expending time, money and resources on reopening the line if they are going to close it?

Because you have to be seen to be trying to do the right thing BEFORE you claim the wrong thing is the only option. Classic UK transport policy I'm afraid. Dover is not Lamington as closing it won't have anywhere near as catastrophic effect on the country as Lamington. Surely it could be argued that it would be MUCH cheaper and easier and better to close Dover to Folkestone and use some of the money saved to reopen Canterbury West curve to the other Dover line thereby maintaining Dover to Ashford and St Pancras and providing additional connectivity. The coastal stations (Deal etc) win as they still get fast London services and Folkestone wins as passengers will get empty trains in peak as trains would start there. Seems a much better solution to me and not that politically dodgy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because you have to be seen to be trying to do the right thing BEFORE you claim the wrong thing is the only option. Classic UK transport policy I'm afraid. Dover is not Lamington as closing it won't have anywhere near as catastrophic effect on the country as Lamington. Surely it could be argued that it would be MUCH cheaper and easier and better to close Dover to Folkestone and use some of the money saved to reopen Canterbury West curve to the other Dover line thereby maintaining Dover to Ashford and St Pancras and providing additional connectivity. The coastal stations (Deal etc) win as they still get fast London services and Folkestone wins as passengers will get empty trains in peak as trains would start there. Seems a much better solution to me and not that politically dodgy.

Well, there was the not totally unrelated sea defences matter at Dawlish not so very long ago that brought forth a debate on an avoiding route in the same manner as this Dover/Folkestone infrastructural debate appears to be doing.

 

[yorksrob]

Because you have to be seen to be trying to do the right thing BEFORE you claim the wrong thing is the only option. Classic UK transport policy I'm afraid. Dover is not Lamington as closing it won't have anywhere near as catastrophic effect on the country as Lamington. Surely it could be argued that it would be MUCH cheaper and easier and better to close Dover to Folkestone and use some of the money saved to reopen Canterbury West curve to the other Dover line thereby maintaining Dover to Ashford and St Pancras and providing additional connectivity. The coastal stations (Deal etc) win as they still get fast London services and Folkestone wins as passengers will get empty trains in peak as trains would start there. Seems a much better solution to me and not that politically dodgy.

The idea that you could maintain an adequate local service between Ashford (not to mention Folkestone) and the East coast of Kent by forcing a massive permanent diversion via Canterbury is pure pie in the sky. Even reopening the curve that you suggest would entail two reversals as it faced between Canterbury West and Faversham. You might as well go the whole hog and reopen the Elham Valley.

Closure of this important secondary route would send out a stark message to every citizen that the powers that be can't be trusted with the everyday railway.

 

[fflint]

najaB you can scroll down the page to pick up the report. If not the direct link is here http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=497767247088074&id=161119827419486

I wonder sometimes if it's worth the effort of trying to help out

 

[najaB]

I wonder sometimes if it's worth the effort of trying to help out

Thanks. As a general point, if it's not immediately clear what on a page you are referring to it's a good idea (as well as a forum rule) to either quote it in your post, or indicate exactly what you intend people to read.

It's just generally nice, and also helps forum members who are using assistive technology such as screen readers.

 

[embers25]

The idea that you could maintain an adequate local service between Ashford (not to mention Folkestone) and the East coast of Kent by forcing a massive permanent diversion via Canterbury is pure pie in the sky. Even reopening the curve that you suggest would entail two reversals as it faced between Canterbury West and Faversham. You might as well go the whole hog and reopen the Elham Valley.

Closure of this important secondary route would send out a stark message to every citizen that the powers that be can't be trusted with the everyday railway.

Discarding all the non-trivial land purchase needs, from Google it looks quite easy to build a curve from Canterbury East to the Ashford Line joining to the west of Canterbury West (where the two lines cross) which would mean Dover to Ashford would require no reversal and the journey time wouldn't be significantly longer from Dover to Ashford than it was before the closure.

 

[yorksrob]

Discarding all the non-trivial land purchase needs, from Google it looks quite easy to build a curve from Canterbury East to the Ashford Line joining to the west of Canterbury West (where the two lines cross) which would mean Dover to Ashford would require no reversal and the journey time wouldn't be significantly longer from Dover to Ashford than it was before the closure.

Once you take into account the cost of building the curve, resignalling the Canterbury West Route to take a greater frequency of trains (unlike the Canterbury E - Dover, this was always a secondary route, so I assume it would need some works) and the loss of connectivity from Folkestone, you're better off rebuilding the existing line.

 

[Llanigraham]

najaB you can scroll down the page to pick up the report. If not the direct link is here http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=497767247088074&id=161119827419486

I wonder sometimes if it's worth the effort of trying to help out

Problem is, if you are not a member of Facebook you can't see that page.

 

[DarloRich]

Because you have to be seen to be trying to do the right thing BEFORE you claim the wrong thing is the only option. Classic UK transport policy I'm afraid. Dover is not Lamington as closing it won't have anywhere near as catastrophic effect on the country as Lamington. Surely it could be argued that it would be MUCH cheaper and easier and better to close Dover to Folkestone and use some of the money saved to reopen Canterbury West curve to the other Dover line thereby maintaining Dover to Ashford and St Pancras and providing additional connectivity. The coastal stations (Deal etc) win as they still get fast London services and Folkestone wins as passengers will get empty trains in peak as trains would start there. Seems a much better solution to me and not that politically dodgy.

or, perhaps more realistically, you have to look at ALL options when deciding the business case, benefits, risks and impacts of a project. That includes the do nothing option, which in this case is close the line.

 

[MrB]

Do Southeastern get a say in whether the line is closed or is it purely a DfT/Network Rail thing?

 

[Cletus]

Network Rail are making an announcement today...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is copied from Southeastern's website:

Expected reopening
We are pleased to tell you that Network Rail has agreed a repair and rebuild plan, and is working to re-open the railway between Dover and Folkestone in December 2016. While this seems like a far off milestone, it is necessary to give engineers the time to re-build the wall and complete the complex work which is needed in order to get the line open.

As part of the £44.5m major project by Network Rail, engineers will need to completely rebuild the damaged section of the sea wall and railway. This work will take many more engineers, much more time and a great deal more money than a standard repair job, but this project will secure the line at Dover for many years to come. We thank you for your continued patience while waiting for a date and thank you for your on-going understanding while the work takes place.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Full press release http://www.southeasternrailway.co.u...stone-railway-expected-to-reopen-in-december/

Dover-Folkestone railway expected to reopen in December
04 Apr 2016
A severely damaged stretch of railway near Dover will need to be completely replaced with a new viaduct before trains can run again.

The £44.5m project to rebuild the line has already begun and Network Rail engineers say they are targeting December to reopen the railway to trains. Work to protect the existing structure and cliffs has been underway since the start of the year and preliminary construction on the 235m-long viaduct started last week.

MP for Dover and Deal Charlie Elphicke said: “"This is a very big project and it will cost more than £40m. The works will take a long time. I completely understand how difficult this has been for rail travellers. Yet once the works are complete, we will have a more resilient railway line. I will do all I can to see the project keeps to the timetable and we get our rail services back on track as soon as we can."
Network Rail’s route managing director Alasdair Coates said: “Passengers have been incredibly patient while their railway has been closed and I want to assure them that everyone at Network Rail and Costain has been working incredibly hard on a plan to reopen the railway as quickly as possible.

“We hope to have trains running again in December. As with all projects of this scale, and this kind of exposed location, we will face challenges with the weather and the ground we are working on, but I am confident this is the right plan and one that will give us a strong railway, years into the future.”
Southeastern’s Managing Director, David Statham, said: “A huge thank you to all passengers affected by this, it’s been a testing time for everyone involved and while you’ve been severely inconvenience by the closure of the line, you’ve been patient throughout and for that we’re very grateful.

“We’ve worked hard since the closure of the line to provide our passengers with a service that enables them to travel to where they need to go. We’ve restructured our timetable, continued to adapt it where and when we can, and have worked to provide special train services, bus replacements and free car parking where it is most needed for those who are most affected.

“Now with a date in sight, we will work with Charlie Elphicke MP and the Dover Taskforce to maintain these services and ensure our passengers receive the information they need.”
The new viaduct will be 235 metres long, supported by on 134 concrete columns sunk into the beach. It will be designed to last 120 years and will be protected by rock armour.

Network Rail’s Steve Kilby, who is leading the project, said: “The railway at this location was originally built on a timber viaduct and our modern, concrete viaduct will follow the same principles – although it will be hidden behind a wall of rock sea defences. We will also put a new footbridge back where the old one was, so people can continue to enjoy Shakespeare beach.

“In addition to rebuilding the railway, we are also defending almost 750m of the sea wall with more than 90,000 tonnes of rock – the same weight as two modern cross-Channel ferries.

“It’s a massive job but we have a good plan in place and we are already cracking on.”

 

[swt_passenger]

“Now with a date in sight, we will work with Charlie Elphicke MP and the Dover Taskforce to maintain these services and ensure our passengers receive the information they need.”

Can't help thinking that the work so far, the intended solution, and the temporary timetable changes, would all have happened anyway whether or not the local MP was involved - and even without a 'taskforce'.

But I guess it keeps a few people's names in the local paper, which is the main aim.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Discarding all the non-trivial land purchase needs, from Google it looks quite easy to build a curve from Canterbury East to the Ashford Line joining to the west of Canterbury West (where the two lines cross) which would mean Dover to Ashford would require no reversal and the journey time wouldn't be significantly longer from Dover to Ashford than it was before the closure.

What are these "non-trivial land purchase needs" that you refer to above?

*****************************************************************************************************

Incidentally, with groundwork instability on the affected line section between Dover and Folkestone of the thread in mind, it is now just over 100 years ago that Folkestone Warren Halt was overcome by a landslide in 1915. It reopened in 1919,but was finally closed in 1939.

 

[yorksrob]

Network Rail are making an announcement today...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is copied from Southeastern's website:


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Full press release http://www.southeasternrailway.co.u...stone-railway-expected-to-reopen-in-december/

That's good news anyway !

 

[Groningen]

There is a busreplacement service?