Little dispute with First Capital Connect

[shlg2]

I have had a small dispute with First Capital Connect (FCC) about ticket vailidities, and I'd appreciate some views from members of the Forum.

I have been travelling peak time from Shelford to London King's Cross, which requires a change at Cambridge. I have been buying a ticket from the Greater Anglia machine that costs £34.80 First Class with Disabled Railcard, Anytime Day return, and it says "All terminals" on the ticket. (Cheaper fares sometimes exist for Liverpool Street only from Cambridge and Shelford, on Greater Anglia services only, but they tend to specify this on the ticket).

However FCC have said that my £34.80 fare is not valid via Cambridge and that I have to buy separate tickets from Shelford to Cambridge on the Greater Anglia Service, and then a separate FCC ticket from Cambridge to London King's Cross. This means £38 for the FCC part of the journey plus an additional £5 for the return to Cambridge, totalling £43. It also means messing about for hours at the ticket machine while a queue full of harrassed people wonder what the heck I am doing every time!:-x

However according to the routeing regulations I think I am probably entitled to buy the £34.80 ticket as this is geographically the shortest route between Shelford and London King's Cross. (Morally it ought to be as I waste half an hour going in to Cambridge and out again, passing my house twice, but that's another story, of course).

What does everyone think?

 

[bb21]

Do you mean £34.20? There is no £34.80 fare between Shelford and London.

Your ticket is to London Terminals and King's Cross via Cambridge is not the shortest route or within 3 miles of the shortest route. The shortest route is to Liverpool Street.

There is a negative easement, 700119, which I believe is intended to forbid travel via Cambridge between Shelford and London, although the wording of the easement is not the best.

Customers travelling from Shelford via Royston, may not travel via Cambridge. This easement applies in both directions

 

[Nick W]

The ticket is not valid via Cambridge due to both the fares rule and a negative easement.

You can probably cycle from your house to Cambridge station in 15 minutes though, or use Foxton.

Otherwise simply ask for the cheapest ticket to Kings Cross via Cambridge. If they sell the incorrect ticket, get them to put it in writing that it's valid via Cambridge to cover you.

 

[cjohnson]

Despite the negative 'easement', FCC's own website will sell the £34.20 ticket with an itinerary Shelford-Cambridge-King's X (see attached screenshot). If challenged you could always carry a printout of their booking page and see what they say...

 

[Royston Vasey]

London Terminals refers to the *appropriate* terminal for the line on which you're travelling. You couldn't travel to Paddington either. I don't think the ticket will say All Terminals.

 

[shlg2]

Thank you - I think it is pretty unclear given that FCC and GA both clearly offer the £34.20 ticket on their websites (and indeed it is pretty much available everywhere).

I can't cycle as I am disabled, unfortunately, so reliant on travelling into Cambridge to get the train I need.

 

[Nick W]

I can't cycle as I am disabled, unfortunately, so reliant on travelling into Cambridge to get the train I need.

Sorry to hear that. Don't suppose you're eligible for a disabled persons railcard?

I presume you're reliant on walking so can't drive to Foxton either?

 

[shlg2]

By the way, interestingly, it seems Shelford to King's Cross is 48.7 miles whereas Shelford to Liverpool Street is 48.9 miles, and the London stations are 2.49 miles apart, so I am wondering if that overrides the easement in any way, being less than 3 miles difference in each case, or if the easement has priority? (I am presuming it does).

Have just printed off a copy of the FCC webpage to brandish at future ticket inspectors!

 

[ainsworth74]

Sorry to hear that. Don't suppose you're eligible for a disabled persons railcard?

I have been buying a ticket from the Greater Anglia machine that costs £34.80 First Class with Disabled Railcard, Anytime Day return, and it says "All terminals" on the ticket.

 

[shlg2]

Yes Nick, I mentioned the disability things in the original quote
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Might be able to drive to Foxton, actually. I'll check out overall journey time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OK, that would be £37.50 from Foxton, plus I would have to set off from home earlier, disrupting various domestic things, so not a great advantage there.

I think I am best off buying my usual ticket and waving the bit of paper at any inspectors.

 

[Paul Kelly]

By the way, interestingly, it seems Shelford to King's Cross is 48.7 miles whereas Shelford to Liverpool Street is 48.9 miles

Where do you get those figures from? I calculate it as:

Shelford to Liverpool Street: 52 miles 39 chains

0ch		0ch	SHELFORD (CAMBS)	SED
3m 34ch		3m 34ch	WHITTLESFORD PARKWAY	WLF
6m 59ch		3m 25ch	GREAT CHESTERFORD	GRC
10m 60ch	4m 1ch	AUDLEY END	AUD
12m 43ch	1m 63ch	NEWPORT (ESSEX)	NWE
16m 71ch	4m 28ch	ELSENHAM	ESM
19m 7ch		2m 16ch	STANSTED MOUNTFITCHET	SST
22m 10ch	3m 3ch	BISHOPS STORTFORD	BIS
25m 61ch	3m 50ch	SAWBRIDGEWORTH	SAW
27m 78ch	2m 17ch	HARLOW MILL	HWM
29m 58ch	1m 61ch	HARLOW TOWN	HWN
32m 26ch	2m 47ch	ROYDON	RYN
35m 21ch	2m 75ch	BROXBOURNE	BXB
38m 36ch	3m 15ch	CHESHUNT	CHN
39m 54ch	1m 18ch	WALTHAM CROSS	WLC
40m 53ch	78ch	ENFIELD LOCK	ENL
41m 58ch	1m 5ch	BRIMSDOWN	BMD
42m 48ch	70ch	PONDERS END	PON
44m 61ch	2m 13ch	ANGEL ROAD	AGR
45m 46ch	65ch	NORTHUMBERLAND PARK	NUM
46m 38ch	72ch	TOTTENHAM HALE	TOM
48m 42ch	2m 4ch	CLAPTON	CPT
49m 41ch	79ch	HACKNEY DOWNS	HAC
50m 5ch		44ch	LONDON FIELDS	LOF
50m 57ch	52ch	CAMBRIDGE HEATH (LONDON)	CBH
51m 28ch	51ch	BETHNAL GREEN	BET
52m 39ch	1m 11ch	LONDON LIVERPOOL STREET	LST

Shelford to King's Cross on the other hand comes out as 61 miles 51 chains, i.e. nearly 10 miles longer so no chance of the 3 mile route applying (sorry no detailed breakdown of the mileage available).

 

[reb0118]

Thank you - I think it is pretty unclear given that FCC and GA both clearly offer the £34.20 ticket on their websites (and indeed it is pretty much available everywhere) .

Generally one can not double back on a journey without purchasing an additional ticket. In some cases, it seems not in this one, however, it is permitted under the three mile rule or there may be an easement allowing the double back. This is normally the case when the local station has a poor service in comparison to the nearest interchange ~ however it is probably too complex to go into here.

With regard to your reference to unclarity above. I think you have answered you own query with this statement

(and indeed it is pretty much available everywhere)

. The availability of the ticket bears no resemblance to its validity ~ you could purchase the said ticket from the Scotrail website but it would not be valid via Edinburgh & Glasgow.

A better way to go, as I believe that you are a Disabled Person's RC holder, would be to contact FCC customer services and explain the reasons why you make the journey via Cambridge and ask for a letter of authority to permit you to travel that way ~ in essence you would hold your own personal easement. There is a precedent to allow disabled passengers to travel via non - permitted routes if there are valid reasons for doing so. Only you, yourself, will know if this would apply to you.

Another course of action is an appeal to ATOC with regard to the previous any reasonable route system being in place prior to privatisation. If via Cambridge was accepted as being on a reasonable route in the past but is now not on an any permitted route from your local station to London you can ask ATOC to review the situation - if successful you will receive any additional monies that you have had to pay in the meantime back.

 

[LexyBoy]

Generally one can not double back on a journey without purchasing an additional ticket. In some cases, it seems not in this one, however, it is permitted under the three mile rule or there may be an easement allowing the double back. This is normally the case when the local station has a poor service in comparison to the nearest interchange ~ however it is probably too complex to go into here.

There's no doubling back in this case though. There is an easement forbidding travel this way however (although it appears reasonable and is often the quickest route).

With regard to your reference to unclarity above. I think you have answered you own query with this statement . The availability of the ticket bears no resemblance to its validity ~ you could purchase the said ticket from the Scotrail website but it would not be valid via Edinburgh & Glasgow.

The unclarity I think refers to the fact that both GA and FCC websites show the journey via Cambridge as being valid with one ticket, whilst OP has been told by staff that it is not.

 

[bb21]

I would say that if a ticket is offered by the retailer and purchased according to a valid itinerary offered by the retailer, then that itinerary should be honoured, and I believe this is ATOC's view too.

 

[barrykas]

Where do you get those figures from? I calculate it as:

Shelford to Liverpool Street: 52 miles 39 chains

*snip*

Shelford to King's Cross on the other hand comes out as 61 miles 51 chains, i.e. nearly 10 miles longer so no chance of the 3 mile route applying (sorry no detailed breakdown of the mileage available).

The mileage that matters is that given in the eNRT though!

Looking at the relevant tables (22 and 25) we get:

Shelford - Liverpool Street: 52.5 miles

Shelford - Cambridge: 3.25 miles
Cambridge - Kings Cross: 58 miles
Total: 61.25 miles

Still fails the "3 mile rule" though.

Checking the Routeing Guide, Shelford has Cambridge and Stansted Group as routeing points. Of those two, only Stansted Group (specifically Stansted Mountfitchet) satisfies the fares check as, not surprisingly, Any Permitted fares from Cambridge to London are higher than from Shelford to London.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Nick W]

Yes Nick, I mentioned the disability things in the original quote

My apologies - I've been feeling sleepy all week, and today's the worst so far.

 

[LexyBoy]

I would say that if a ticket is offered by the retailer and purchased according to a valid itinerary offered by the retailer, then that itinerary should be honoured, and I believe this is ATOC's view too.

One would hope so. It brings to mind this thread, with yorkie's final post leaving us hanging

 

[reb0118]

There's no doubling back in this case though. There is an easement forbidding travel this way however (although it appears reasonable and is often the quickest route).

True, should have checked the Baker prior to posting. There is a technical double back though ~ Serperth Branch Jn. & Cambridge ~ I know that does not apply to routings though as there is no station between the two points.

The unclarity I think refers to the fact that both GA and FCC websites show the journey via Cambridge as being valid with one ticket, whilst OP has been told by staff that it is not.

I seem to be getting two tickets i.e ticket to Cambridge + ticket from Cambridge to London when I select the route to KGX ~ the system crashed when I tried to go to the payment screen.

 

[shlg2]

I am so glad I posted this problem for discussion. It has been incredibly interesting. I am wondering how I might find out if the negative easement was only applied after privatisation? If this was the case, because of competition, then being able to make a case against it would help very many users of my local station, who I think are equally irritated at being played off by two train companies like this. Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[barrykas]

I suspect it may be one of those things that was never officially "allowed" as such, but BR opted not to enforce it.

On the other hand, given the journey times are similar to both Liverpool Street and Kings Cross, it could potentially be argued that it used to be valid under the "reasonableness" test, and the disputed routeing procedure should be invoked.

 

[Be3G]

I would second that. Planning a journey from Shelford to London Terminals right now on National Rail Enquiries shows that the fastest journeys use a mixture of both direct and via-Cambridge routes, so whilst I have no idea if it'd be successful (I've not yet managed to find any written experiences of the disputed routeing procedure), I'd suggest this is a prime case for its use.

 

[shlg2]

What does everyone think would be the next step forwards? A letter to ATOC perhaps?

 

[barrykas]

Oddly, the disputed routeing procedure can only be invoked by a TOC, you can't approach ATOC directly as a passenger!

As FCC are the ones who are saying the ticket isn't valid, I'd suggest writing to their Customer Services Department saying you wish to raise the matter of a disputed route and giving the details. They should then contact ATOC, who'll make a decision on the matter.

Of course, the result could be the creation of "via Cambridge" fares for that journey, at a premium of course.

 

[shlg2]

Hmm, is there a regulator, I wonder? I am thinking I will be less than popular if I bring about even higher rail fares in our area, as they are pretty steep already ...

 

[ainsworth74]

Well there's always the Office of Rail Regulation. But it's a bit out of their remit and besides they don't really understand fares (yet seemingly wish to take a more active role). Or alternatively Passenger Focus. Who are in the pockets of the DfT and also effectively toothless. Basically/realistically no there isn't.

 

[shlg2]

<grr>!

 

[34D]

If kings cross is more than 3 miles from Liverpool Street (by their different routes I mean), why is the easement even needed?

 

[sheff1]

The 'easement' makes no logical sense at all (nothing new there!).

The Routeing Points for Shelford are Cambridge and Stansted Group. If Cambridge/Royston is banned then a journey from Shelford to, say, Hitchin must be via Stansted (& presumably London) which would be ridiculous.

 

[LexyBoy]

The 'easement' makes no logical sense at all (nothing new there!).

The Routeing Points for Shelford are Cambridge and Stansted Group. If Cambridge/Royston is banned then a journey from Shelford to, say, Hitchin must be via Stansted (& presumably London) which would be ridiculous.

It is a ridiculous easement IMO; but it doesn't preclude a Shelford to Hitchin via Cambridge as this is the shortest route, which is valid without consulting the easements list.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The 'easement' makes no logical sense at all (nothing new there!).

The Routeing Points for Shelford are Cambridge and Stansted Group. If Cambridge/Royston is banned then a journey from Shelford to, say, Hitchin must be via Stansted (& presumably London) which would be ridiculous.

The written easements are taken from coding that is given to the Journey Planners and, as such, make perfect sense to them, but that doesn't help us very much. I rather suspect that if the full easement where to be printed, the easements section would become vastly long and quite complex to read.

It is a ridiculous easement IMO; but it doesn't preclude a Shelford to Hitchin via Cambridge as this is the shortest route, which is valid without consulting the easements list.

Indeed, the shortest route is listed in the NRCoC as a permitted route, though for completeness I should add that there is some debate about routes within three miles of the shortest route as this only appears in the Routeing Guide.