Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[Chester1]

I've already commented on the population issue.

I see you persist with the argument that disruptuion at Lime Street can be ignored, because of South Parkway. By the same token, the disruption ay Waterloo can't have meant very much, because Clapham Junction remained open.

I haven't 'dismissed' Driver M. I (and a number of others) pointed out that his argument that Liverpool has benefitted from the Ordsall Chord is unconvincing because it depends on a series of further enhancements which a. are not currently being made b. may not benefit Liverpool if and when they are made. He didn't like someone disagreeing with him and took a huff.

He didn't actually address the issue of why there is such an inadequate service to Lime Street during the works, so I dln't.know why you're using my 'dismissal' of him as a reason to avoid answering this question. Your own previous explanations for the dearth of service have, I have to say, not been very persuasive

OK I agree its an anti Liverpool consipiracy! The Tories have decided to hurt Liverpool by signing off Network Rail rebuilding Lime Street to increase capacity, involving a 3 week blockade followed by an 8 week blockade the following year... Of course the work is inconvenient, but it is of a reasonable duration for the quantity and complexity of the work involved.

 

[The_Engineer]

Today's progress photographs courtesy of GNRP:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1008795064892645376

 

[Skie]

Today's progress photographs courtesy of GNRP:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1008795064892645376

Nice of them to handle rainfall on platforms that will never see it.

Regarding the spur for the tunnel up to Edge Hill from Central, possibly the best shot of it is here http://www.railengineer.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/CentralTunnel-077.jpg
From here: https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/10/21/eighth-wonder/

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder this thread is to discuss Liverpool Lime St remodelling

If anyone wishes to either go off on a tangent, or reply to someone who has already gone off-topic, please create a new thread. Thanks.

 

[B&I]

OK I agree its an anti Liverpool consipiracy! The Tories have decided to hurt Liverpool by signing off Network Rail rebuilding Lime Street to increase capacity, involving a 3 week blockade followed by an 8 week blockade the following year... Of course the work is inconvenient, but it is of a reasonable duration for the quantity and complexity of the work involved.

Grow up. No-one but you is saying it's an anti-Liverpool conspiracy, largely because for some reason you seem to be obsessed with preventing anyone who lives in Liverpool from raising any issue whatsoever. Odd that the posters on here who take this tack often seem to be from the fringes of the Liverpool area.

For the umpteenth time, I acvept that this is not the only project, and Liverpool is not the only place, where work seems to be taking a long time in comparison to the outcomes achieved. Is nobody allowed to raise this point without you going off on some anti-Scouse rant ?

Where Liverpool isn't getting a fair shake of the sauce bottle is the terrible residual service to Lime Street. Neither you, nor anyone else, seems to be able to offer any explanation for this, but at least most people aren't accusing anyone who raises the issue of paranoia.

 

[driver_m]

I'm still here haha. No huffs here. I'll abide by what Yorkie says though. So in the spirit of the subject I shall pass on a bit of info. Which is to say that the new platforms 1 and 2 will be 220/221m long and will be only fully working from October. 1 will be out of action until then. There will also be more ability to get trains in and out of the cutting as there will be an extra set of signals in the cutting compared to now . Edge Hill Box has a temporary stay of execution too.

 

[frodshamfella]

Its not ignorance, its pointing out you are factually incorrect. Although no longer a resident of the area I have spent the vast majority of my life in Wirral or Chester, I am not bias against Liverpool! Its simply the case that Liverpool city region has considerably less than the 2 million people you stated and the catchment area for Lime street long distance services is much smaller. Whether it be services to Manchester and across the Pennines or to Birmingham or London plenty of residents of the area have better options. For many people living near Northern Line stations the quickest route to Manchester / Sheffield/Leeds/Birmingham was already changing at South Parkway. You prefered to call me ignorant than answer my question, which areas are you adding to Merseyside to get to 2 million people? Even adding in Halton and Warrington boroughs which both have their own long distance services, does not get you to 2 million. An 8 week closure and use of South Parkway is a very reasonable result of rebuilding most of the platforms and track layout at Lime Street. Liverpool is not being treated badly because it had blockades caused by major infrastructure upgrades!



The government is supporting Southern and Western access to Heathrow plans because like the current line to Heathrow they will be funded, owned and built by the private sector. I agree the North has been short changed on infrastructure investment but Heathrow rail links are a very bad example to use. Crossrail 2 is similiar because while the central government is offering to help TfL finance the scheme it won't actually be paying for it. Its support for both Heathrow schemes and Crossrail 2 is therefore helpful but very limited. TfGM doesn’t seem to be after the government paying much of the cost of expanding the Airport line, just helping with financing, so I am sure the government very much supports those plans too!

I didn't compare it, I just said the support for rail in the North has not been good because the country is so London centric. I understood the electric which has been installed from Liverpool to Manchester , was meant to continue to Leeds and beyond, that not now happening.

 

[B&I]

Can I just check please, are posters allowed to raise a. the length of time the improvement works at Liverpool Lime Street Station are taking b. the quality of residual services to Liverpool Lime Street station during improvement works, on a thread about improvement works at Liverpool Lime Street Station ?

I don't have anything more to say on these subjects, but I wanted to check just in case someone could come up in future with some good response to the queries raised by numerous posters about them

 

[B&I]

I'm still here haha. No huffs here. I'll abide by what Yorkie says though. So in the spirit of the subject I shall pass on a bit of info. Which is to say that the new platforms 1 and 2 will be 220/221m long and will be only fully working from October. 1 will be out of action until then. There will also be more ability to get trains in and out of the cutting as there will be an extra set of signals in the cutting compared to now . Edge Hill Box has a temporary stay of execution too.

Are you sure about that ? National Rail Enquiries lists 3 departures from platform 1 in the next 90 minutes.

 

[driver_m]

Are you sure about that ? National Rail Enquiries lists 3 departures from platform 1 in the next 90 minutes.

The clue is in the 'new platform 1 and 2' bit.

 

[Chester1]

I didn't compare it, I just said the support for rail in the North has not been good because the country is so London centric. I understood the electric which has been installed from Liverpool to Manchester , was meant to continue to Leeds and beyond, that not now happening.

Transpennine electrification is being reviewed its not been cancelled. Lostock-Wigan and Victoria-Stalybridge are in a similiar limbo. The schemes cancelled where Cardiff-Swansea, Kettering-Sheffield and Oxenholme-Windermere. TP electrification is more complicated to plan because its part of wider upgrades to increase linespeeds and capacity. My guess is that it will be authorised to start soon after Manchester to Preston is done but as discontinuous electrification with neutral sections under bridges and tunnels to cut costs. That would require some alterations to the 802s and ordering locos and EMUs with limited range batteries. I agree infrastructure spending is very London centric but people will complain about disruption when its due to investment in the north!

 

[driver_m]

Transpennine electrification is being reviewed its not been cancelled. Lostock-Wigan and Victoria-Stalybridge are in a similiar limbo. The schemes cancelled where Cardiff-Swansea, Kettering-Sheffield and Oxenholme-Windermere. TP electrification is more complicated to plan because its part of wider upgrades to increase linespeeds and capacity. My guess is that it will be authorised to start soon after Manchester to Preston is done but as discontinuous electrification with neutral sections under bridges and tunnels to cut costs. That would require some alterations to the 802s and ordering locos and EMUs with limited range batteries. I agree infrastructure spending is very London centric but people will complain about disruption when its due to investment in the north!

I'd go along with that. I don't think even Grayling is that stupid to officially cancel the investment knowing the s--tstorm it would cause if he did. However, seeing as NR can't even run a bath at the minute. It's probably best to wait until this new gaffer takes over and agree a plan of action then. I'd guess it's going to tie in with this wider NPR scheme which is intriguing as to what lines will be upgraded, seeing as 4 tracking the Chat Moss east of Huyton is going to be near impossible.

 

[The_Engineer]

Transpennine electrification is being reviewed its not been cancelled. Lostock-Wigan and Victoria-Stalybridge are in a similiar limbo. The schemes cancelled where Cardiff-Swansea, Kettering-Sheffield and Oxenholme-Windermere. TP electrification is more complicated to plan because its part of wider upgrades to increase linespeeds and capacity. My guess is that it will be authorised to start soon after Manchester to Preston is done but as discontinuous electrification with neutral sections under bridges and tunnels to cut costs. That would require some alterations to the 802s and ordering locos and EMUs with limited range batteries. I agree infrastructure spending is very London centric but people will complain about disruption when its due to investment in the north!

I hope that discontinuous electrification is NOT adopted for Trans Pennine as it would preclude the electrification of freight across the Pennines. To have any hope of keeping freight capacity across the Pennines it needs electric traction to get any meaningful number of paths amongst the passenger trains. I am sure The Railfreight Group are already on to this......

 

[frodshamfella]

Transpennine electrification is being reviewed its not been cancelled. Lostock-Wigan and Victoria-Stalybridge are in a similiar limbo. The schemes cancelled where Cardiff-Swansea, Kettering-Sheffield and Oxenholme-Windermere. TP electrification is more complicated to plan because its part of wider upgrades to increase linespeeds and capacity. My guess is that it will be authorised to start soon after Manchester to Preston is done but as discontinuous electrification with neutral sections under bridges and tunnels to cut costs. That would require some alterations to the 802s and ordering locos and EMUs with limited range batteries. I agree infrastructure spending is very London centric but people will complain about disruption when its due to investment in the north!

I was listening to a radio program on R4 a bit back now , I did post it on here, as I felt quite stunned by the response of the MP Owen Patterson who was shot down in flames by David Dimbleby and rest of the panel after he said new diesels would be great for Trans Pennine.

 

[Chester1]

I was listening to a radio program on R4 a bit back now , I did post it on here, as I felt quite stunned by the response of the MP Owen Patterson who was shot down in flames by David Dimbleby and rest of the panel after he said new diesels would be great for Trans Pennine.

Owen Patterson has not been a minister for quite a while now therefore his views do not always represent government policy. Transpennine electrification cancelled is a nice easy story for the media, despite not actually being the case. If I had to bet id guess that Liverpool to Newcastle/Edinburgh via ECML will eventually be run with 397 or 801 variants that have a short range battery. NR will not want to start electrification until they have sign off on the other upgrades. There is no point in them wiring sections that are then ripped up as part of alterations to junctions and alignments.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

However, seeing as NR can't even run a bath at the minute.

They'd do better if DfT didn't keep stealing their bath plugs and cutting the water off.

 

[B&I]

The clue is in the 'new platform 1 and 2' bit.

Sorry, it was the 'platform 1 will be out of action until October' part of your post which confused me, it being June

 

[The_Engineer]

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1009443178745925632

Day 19 progress picture on Twitter

 

[XDM]

They'd do better if DfT didn't keep stealing their bath plugs and cutting the water off.

What option had Dft after Network rail's electrification costs rose by more than 200%?
Indeed Dft pulled the plug - as most of us might well do on a builder who told us our £10,000 garage extension would now cost £22,000 & will not be as big as planned & a year or so late.
Most people would agree that Mr OBE Carne's organisation,Network Rail, cannot even be trusted to run a bath.

 

[Bevan Price]

In connection with the Lime Street work, does anyone know why some Class 350s are running (ecs) to Edge Hill ? Saw one on Monday afternoon (18 June) .

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In connection with the Lime Street work, does anyone know why some Class 350s are running (ecs) to Edge Hill ? Saw one on Monday afternoon (18 June) .

Looks like a long-winded way to get from P2 to P3 at Liverpool South Parkway, and to keep it out of the way of CLC-line terminators which shuffle from P2 to P1.

 

[DJH1971]

In connection with the Lime Street work, does anyone know why some Class 350s are running (ecs) to Edge Hill ? Saw one on Monday afternoon (18 June) .

I also saw one last Friday morning (15th June).

 

[driver_m]

Looks like a long-winded way to get from P2 to P3 at Liverpool South Parkway, and to keep it out of the way of CLC-line terminators which shuffle from P2 to P1.

Some will be heading to Edge Hill station to turn round and some are turning round on the departure road for the depot, and ours turning round on the down slow. Just the easiest way to turn everything round, there were a couple of stitch ups last blockade, so this seems to work better .

 

[B&I]

How much of Edge Hill is open ? Was any consideration given to using it to turn terminating trains round ?

 

[nw-sparks]

How much of Edge Hill is open ? Was any consideration given to using it to turn terminating trains round ?

When I was there last week it looked like platforms 3 and 4 were inside the possession.

I notice that the ECS reversers from Parkway are reversing in platform 2.

 

[driver_m]

How much of Edge Hill is open ? Was any consideration given to using it to turn terminating trains round ?

I think some of it is blocked 11 car pendos don't fit, and the train alternative works far better from LSP.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think some of it is blocked 11 car pendos don't fit, and the train alternative works far better from LSP.

If you reverse trains at Edge Hill, you block capacity for the temporary single line into Lime St.
Reversing 350s there seems to be one reason why so few trains are running via Huyton (eg no TPE).

 

[driver_m]

If you reverse trains at Edge Hill, you block capacity for the temporary single line into Lime St.
Reversing 350s there seems to be one reason why so few trains are running via Huyton (eg no TPE).

Plus, purely from a welcoming point of view. Edge Hill is not the best place to get your first impression of the city. It's a building site and also very scruffy in parts .LSP is far better from that POV

 

[B&I]

Well at least it sounds as if there are good practical reasons for not turning trains at Edge Hill

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plus, purely from a welcoming point of view. Edge Hill is not the best place to get your first impression of the city. It's a building site and also very scruffy in parts .LSP is far better from that POV

Most people would change at South Parkway onto Merseyrail anyway even if you did turn them at Edge Hill. Most people wouldn't walk in from Edge Hill which is only on the edge of the city centre in what is a rather run-down scummy suburb.