Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

[Class 170101]

If Dore - Sheffield is that much of a pinch point, you could potentially operate either (or both) via Barrow Hill and Woodhouse. This already happens to a limited degree.

Depending how busy the north end of Sheffield is.

 

[Killingworth]

This actually strikes me as fairly sensible, it's not much longer and does relieve the overcrowded Sheaf corridoor. Only issue is the capacity in the North throat at Sheffield (and possibly the Darnall line now that's 2tph as well).

Unfortunately the north end bottleneck at Sheffield can be worse than the one to the south! To the south there's old track bed that could still take a third track to Dore (and may do for HS2) and a 4th for much of that distance. Not so to the north where some serious civil engineering will be needed. Taking the back or old road to Chesterfield may add 7 or 8 minutes to the journey, something that's done every day for diversionary route knowledge purposes - much to the annoyance of Dronfield users.

 

[DanTrain]

Taking the back or old road to Chesterfield may add 7 or 8 minutes to the journey, something that's done every day for diversionary route knowledge purposes - much to the annoyance of Dronfield users who'd like those to go their way and stop there.View attachment 61644

I wasn't suggesting cancel all trains through Dronfield, it gets its hourly service which never goes via Darnall, all trains via Darnall are fast trains which don't stop at Dronny anyway?

 

[Killingworth]

I wasn't suggesting cancel all trains through Dronfield, it gets its hourly service which never goes via Darnall, all trains via Darnall are fast trains which don't stop at Dronny anyway?

It's only the first westbound and last eastbound that go via Darnall. It's the last that Dronfield users would like to go their way.

 

[Tomnick]

It's only the first westbound and last eastbound that go via Darnall. It's the last that Dronfield users would like to go their way.

The last Up does go via Dronfield on a Saturday, when it's probably at its busiest. It still doesn't stop there, of course...

 

[Tomnick]

Can’t see too many Nottingham crews being too unhappy about not having to do that ECS from Nottingham to Liverpool in the very early hours. Loss of work and variety is never a good thing, but that particular job must be a bad one from a fatigue point of view. Hopefully it will create work in Liverpool or Manchester too when it moves over.

I like it, personally. It’s painful getting out of bed for it, but the work content is much better than other jobs that book on not much later. It’s good to have the variety of going over the diversionary routes, and trying to beat my PB for coasting into and through Manchester keeps me engaged. Get to Liverpool, have an hour to take the guard for breakfast, drive back through the morning peak, finished for mid-morning and home in time for brunch!

 

[driver_m]

I like it, personally. It’s painful getting out of bed for it, but the work content is much better than other jobs that book on not much later. It’s good to have the variety of going over the diversionary routes, and trying to beat my PB for coasting into and through Manchester keeps me engaged. Get to Liverpool, have an hour to take the guard for breakfast, drive back through the morning peak, finished for mid-morning and home in time for brunch!

What time do you have to book on for that though? I remember your Derby colleagues having to do some stupidly early starts when the Project Rio was running, they used to get ferried over to Longsight to pick up their HSTs and take them to Leicester if memory serves me correctly.

 

[DanTrain]

It's only the first westbound and last eastbound that go via Darnall. It's the last that Dronfield users would like to go their way.

Oh didn’t know that...does seem a bit odd given northern are never diverted that way anyway due to the quantity of other stuff using that line in disruption but there you go!

 

[Tomnick]

What time do you have to book on for that though? I remember your Derby colleagues having to do some stupidly early starts when the Project Rio was running, they used to get ferried over to Longsight to pick up their HSTs and take them to Leicester if memory serves me correctly.

03.48 normally, sometimes a bit earlier if it’s diverted. There’s much worse book-ons at the other place!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This time last year, Warrington Central had three operators competiting against one another - Northern, TPE & EMT. In a few years there will only be one.
How is that good for competition? It's a regressive step but then this is Whitehall and the DfT we're dealing with so perhaps with shouldn't be surprised.

You'll have Northern and TfW from Bank Quay as well (ie 2 routes to Manchester and to the Airport).
At the local level, there is little competition between the TOCs.
They are all using the RPI+1% formula for walk-on fares, and Advances are insignificant until you get to longer distances.
I also expect DfT will ask both Northern and TPE to bid against each other for the Liverpool-Nottingham route.
That's where the competition comes in.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You'll have Northern and TfW from Bank Quay as well (ie 2 routes to Manchester and to the Airport).
At the local level, there is little competition between the TOCs.
They are all using the RPI+1% formula for walk-on fares, and Advances are insignificant until you get to longer distances.
I also expect DfT will ask both Northern and TPE to bid against each other for the Liverpool-Nottingham route.
That's where the competition comes in.

Who's using RPI+1?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It the current formula DfT uses to regulate fares increases.
They do vary it depending on the political situation.
No TOC can arbitrarily increase regulated fares by more than that (on average).

Northern sets the Off Peak Return fare (Any Permitted) from Warrington to Manchester whether you travel by NT, TfL or EMT (or TPE if they came back).
You can get a slightly cheaper TfW-only fare (less frequent service).
There isn't an EMT-only fare.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It the current formula DfT uses to regulate fares increases.
They do vary it depending on the political situation.
No TOC can arbitrarily increase regulated fares by more than that (on average).

Northern sets the Off Peak Return fare (Any Permitted) from Warrington to Manchester whether you travel by NT, TfL or EMT (or TPE if they came back).
You can get a slightly cheaper TfW-only fare (less frequent service).
There isn't an EMT-only fare.

As far as I'm aware the policy is currently RPI, hence me questioning RPI+1.

 

[driver_m]

03.48 normally, sometimes a bit earlier if it’s diverted. There’s much worse book-ons at the other place!

Now I’m genuinely surprised at that! Thought it would be a lot earlier than 0348 considering it’s a fair distance from Nottingham and you arrive into Lime St as one of our London’s goes out. I guess you’re straight on it and out of Nottingham no shed, or prepping or anything like that then?

 

[Tomnick]

Now I’m genuinely surprised at that! Thought it would be a lot earlier than 0348 considering it’s a fair distance from Nottingham and you arrive into Lime St as one of our London’s goes out. I guess you’re straight on it and out of Nottingham no shed, or prepping or anything like that then?

Yup, straight on it for an 04.07 departure. It’s prepped ready by the shed men on nights, and it’s not a bad journey really apart from the final trundle across Chat Moss behind a stopper.

 

[driver_m]

Yup, straight on it for an 04.07 departure. It’s prepped ready by the shed men on nights, and it’s not a bad journey really apart from the final trundle across Chat Moss behind a stopper.

I don’t mind long ECS runs at all so I can see why you would be disappointed to lose that work. I was thinking it’d be like one of our Manchester drivers jobs where they’ve got a 0155 or similar to do an early Holyhead run. But back to the main issue. Are any of you expecting to be asked to go over to the new company and be TUPE’d over or is it all still in the dark? We ended up with a little depot at Edinburgh after the XC stuff to Brum via the WCML was transferred over, as well as Preston coming over lock, stock n barrel.

 

[Tomnick]

I don’t mind long ECS runs at all so I can see why you would be disappointed to lose that work. I was thinking it’d be like one of our Manchester drivers jobs where they’ve got a 0155 or similar to do an early Holyhead run. But back to the main issue. Are any of you expecting to be asked to go over to the new company and be TUPE’d over or is it all still in the dark? We ended up with a little depot at Edinburgh after the XC stuff to Brum via the WCML was transferred over, as well as Preston coming over lock, stock n barrel.

It’s all still very much in the dark. It’s still not absolutely certain that it’ll go to another TOC, I don’t think - presumably it’ll stay where it is if the other two contenders can’t (or don’t want to) operate it for the right price. The franchise spec or something else that came out around that time suggested that the timing of the transfer was deliberately planned to coincide with a significant increase in work out in the flatlands though, so it seems that the intention is for it to be resourced from elsewhere!

 

[driver_m]

It’s all still very much in the dark. It’s still not absolutely certain that it’ll go to another TOC, I don’t think - presumably it’ll stay where it is if the other two contenders can’t (or don’t want to) operate it for the right price. The franchise spec or something else that came out around that time suggested that the timing of the transfer was deliberately planned to coincide with a significant increase in work out in the flatlands though, so it seems that the intention is for it to be resourced from elsewhere!

Good luck with it all. This is a damn good reason why Central Trains should have had a Liverpool Depot back in the early privatisation days for yours and the Brum/Stansteds as they were back then, and there’d have been no need to chop your service up and setup Crewe for Central/LM. Only now that Liverpool is starting to resemble the important train crew depot that it once was now that TPE and GBRF have drivers here.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Good luck with it all. This is a damn good reason why Central Trains should have had a Liverpool Depot back in the early privatisation days for yours and the Brum/Stansteds as they were back then, and there’d have been no need to chop your service up and setup Crewe for Central/LM. Only now that Liverpool is starting to resemble the important train crew depot that it once was now that TPE and GBRF have drivers here.

There is a piece in the Regional Railways Story regarding basing 100% of work at Nottingham being the cheapest method to resource Liverpool to Nottingham, but they had to stick with a small depot at Norwich due to the line not being open 24/7 for a similar empty stock run to/from Norwich for the first and last services. The financials will stack up differently if it's half the route, but still, it is a shame we're losing one of our more premier routes, more so for the drivers, it's horrifically hard work as a Guard, usually the turnover of passengers sees something like 400-500+ different faces on the average Liverpool to Nottingham or vice versa.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I would imagine the data is commercially confidential for the train operators involved.

Also the selection of data provided is really open to interpretation. Do you

A) Only provide data for journeys possible directly on the current service (e.g.Ely to Stockport), when this will omit a large amount of North West<>Anglia journeys for which the EMT service may be one of several routeing option (e.g. from Cambridge)

B) Provide data for all Anglia<>North West type journeys, even though the EMT service may be a theoretical, but unatractive, option. E.g. Bishop's Stortford to Liverpool.

A) Would over-egg the EMT service, but B) Might under-egg it to the point of being misleading. Where is the balance struck between the two?

Yes - fair points, i guess.

 

[edwin_m]

There is a piece in the Regional Railways Story regarding basing 100% of work at Nottingham being the cheapest method to resource Liverpool to Nottingham, but they had to stick with a small depot at Norwich due to the line not being open 24/7 for a similar empty stock run to/from Norwich for the first and last services. The financials will stack up differently if it's half the route, but still, it is a shame we're losing one of our more premier routes, more so for the drivers, it's horrifically hard work as a Guard, usually the turnover of passengers sees something like 400-500+ different faces on the average Liverpool to Nottingham or vice versa.

With Ely-Norwich now re-signalled it would be much easier to open it early and late as far fewer signallers are needed. Peterborough-Ely will stay open for the freight.

However on the occasions it did need to be closed for engineering work, the diversion would be as far away as North London. The entire route between Nottingham and Liverpool is either four-track or has diversions available.

It is also complicated by needing to get the trains back to Nottingham for maintenance.

 

[TheBigD]

With Ely-Norwich now re-signalled it would be much easier to open it early and late as far fewer signallers are needed. Peterborough-Ely will stay open for the freight.

However on the occasions it did need to be closed for engineering work, the diversion would be as far away as North London. The entire route between Nottingham and Liverpool is either four-track or has diversions available.

It is also complicated by needing to get the trains back to Nottingham for maintenance.

Ely to Norwich has been open 24 hours since around 2005, possibly earlier. Resignalling in 2012 didn't change the operating hours as it was already open 24 hours 7 days a week.

Ely to Peterborough is also 24 hours 7 days a week. There is a 1 week in 6 Monday night to Thursday night engineering block (2300ish to 0400ish) which sees all the liners going via London and the early hours empty sand to Middleton Towers running around 90 minutes later than normal.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

It’s all still very much in the dark. It’s still not absolutely certain that it’ll go to another TOC, I don’t think - presumably it’ll stay where it is if the other two contenders can’t (or don’t want to) operate it for the right price.

Interesting!

The DfT's interactive route map is very specific, stating (for the Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool service) that "early in the new franchise the Liverpool - Nottingham section will transfer to another operator, which will enable the two halves of the service to better meet the needs of customers"; then, it has a separate entry for the Norwich - Nottingham - Derby corridor, this stating that there will be "a new through-service between Norwich and Derby after transfer of the Liverpool - Nottingham route out of the franchise", and that "from this point, trains between Norwich and Nottingham will be extended to/from Derby enhancing regional connectivity and providing an additional train each hour between Nottingham and Derby". There is a reference to a "regular hourly Sunday service" for this route, but no mention at all about enhancements in the Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool entry.

This implies to me that the split is a "done-deal", and that something is already in place regarding a transfer but that the information is possibly embargoed until the voluntary stand-still period is over. However, are you are specific that it is "still not absolutely certain that it will go to another TOC", are you able to provide more information for us, please?

 

[Killingworth]

TPE have been raring to go on this for years, but it was all on hold to be deferred until the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme was completed, originally intended to be by December 2018. As that's not now going to be before December 2022 a rethink must surely be due. The reason for it being deferred until then was to allow it to be considered alongside a third fast hourly Manchester-Sheffield service, the ultimate starting and finishing points for that being part of the issue.

My understanding was that the likely intention was for Northern to get one and TPE the other, thereby sharing the route 50:50, 2 tph each, including the stopping service. However that may be too logical and is clearly taxing the DfT too much to decide. I'm sure all those operating and using the service would welcome some clarity. Of all the issues the DfT has to consider surely this can't be so hard?

It is an all but forgotten inter-city route. When Grayling recently announced the HVCIS was to go ahead (probably, subject to, eventually, not for 100% certain , read the small print) he referred to investment in rural lines, apparently overlooking the inter-City element. That was noted by both leisure users in the Hope Valley, glad to be recognised, and the more numerous regular inter-City travellers!

Surely a decision can be made before the next May timetable decisions have to be implemented ? Planning for December is already well advanced so a switch of TOC for May might be logical.

 

[Tomnick]

Good luck with it all. This is a damn good reason why Central Trains should have had a Liverpool Depot back in the early privatisation days for yours and the Brum/Stansteds as they were back then, and there’d have been no need to chop your service up and setup Crewe for Central/LM. Only now that Liverpool is starting to resemble the important train crew depot that it once was now that TPE and GBRF have drivers here.

Cheers!

It’ll obviously be good for Liverpool which does seem to have been quite neglected for a while now. As bunnahabhain suggests though, I understand that it is how it is because that was the cheapest way to resource it right back into RR days. Much is made of the “wasteful” ECS move, but the reality in terms of staffing is tha

Interesting!

The DfT's interactive route map is very specific, stating (for the Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool service) that "early in the new franchise the Liverpool - Nottingham section will transfer to another operator, which will enable the two halves of the service to better meet the needs of customers"; then, it has a separate entry for the Norwich - Nottingham - Derby corridor, this stating that there will be "a new through-service between Norwich and Derby after transfer of the Liverpool - Nottingham route out of the franchise", and that "from this point, trains between Norwich and Nottingham will be extended to/from Derby enhancing regional connectivity and providing an additional train each hour between Nottingham and Derby". There is a reference to a "regular hourly Sunday service" for this route, but no mention at all about enhancements in the Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool entry.

This implies to me that the split is a "done-deal", and that something is already in place regarding a transfer but that the information is possibly embargoed until the voluntary stand-still period is over. However, are you are specific that it is "still not absolutely certain that it will go to another TOC", are you able to provide more information for us, please?

 

[Tomnick]

Good luck with it all. This is a damn good reason why Central Trains should have had a Liverpool Depot back in the early privatisation days for yours and the Brum/Stansteds as they were back then, and there’d have been no need to chop your service up and setup Crewe for Central/LM. Only now that Liverpool is starting to resemble the important train crew depot that it once was now that TPE and GBRF have drivers here.

Cheers!

It’ll obviously be good for Liverpool which does seem to have been quite neglected for a while now. As bunnahabhain suggests though, I understand that it is how it is because that was the cheapest way to resource it right back into RR days. Much is made of the “wasteful” ECS move; the reality in terms of staffing is that there are (on weekdays) three drivers and two guards making an “unproductive” journey each way, which only equates to maybe two full turns of duty; a small depot would probably have similar loss of productivity through the inefficiency of providing spare cover, plus of course the costs of management, depot overheads etc., plus the cost of route refreshing over the diversions if there was no regular booked work, so I can certainly believe that claim!

Interesting!

The DfT's interactive route map is very specific, stating (for the Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool service) that "early in the new franchise the Liverpool - Nottingham section will transfer to another operator, which will enable the two halves of the service to better meet the needs of customers"; then, it has a separate entry for the Norwich - Nottingham - Derby corridor, this stating that there will be "a new through-service between Norwich and Derby after transfer of the Liverpool - Nottingham route out of the franchise", and that "from this point, trains between Norwich and Nottingham will be extended to/from Derby enhancing regional connectivity and providing an additional train each hour between Nottingham and Derby". There is a reference to a "regular hourly Sunday service" for this route, but no mention at all about enhancements in the Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool entry.

This implies to me that the split is a "done-deal", and that something is already in place regarding a transfer but that the information is possibly embargoed until the voluntary stand-still period is over. However, are you are specific that it is "still not absolutely certain that it will go to another TOC", are you able to provide more information for us, please?

I refer only to previous DfT releases, the ITT and supporting documents if I remember correctly, which suggested that it was subject to either TOC being capable of taking the work on and also being able to agree the right price. It certainly seems to be the case that they haven’t decided which TOC to transfer the work to, and it follows logically (albeit maybe unlikely) that keeping the work where it is, even if as a stand-alone service, remains as an option.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

I refer only to previous DfT releases, the ITT and supporting documents if I remember correctly, which suggested that it was subject to either TOC being capable of taking the work on and also being able to agree the right price.

Thanks for that clarification; I believe your above comment accurately summarises information previously published by the DfT. Unless the voluntary standstill period is extended, we should soon know the detail of the franchise award; won't life then be boring!!!

 

[dilbertphil]

 

[class26]

View attachment 62048

The above article says the Lincoln - St Pancras service will be doubled to 2 trains PER HOUR ! Surely it means 2 trains per day ?

 

[Killingworth]

View attachment 62048

The only surprise in that article is the date, 2021. TPE have been ready to go for quite some time and would have preferred a 2020 date I'm sure. Northern as the other option have shown no obvious interest whatsoever.