LIVID! Just got a penalty fare!

[jon0844]

I am not sure we should be encouraging any TOC to start saying people must get off a train, buy another ticket, and board a later service.

If the conclusion is that I cannot travel if I can't buy a ticket at Old Street, and must go to Finsbury Park (or King's Cross via the tube) and get off to buy a ticket there - or any other manned station along the line - then it would mean FCC would have to make this VERY clear and retract the answer on the online forum.

 

[t0ffeeman]

NR's journey planner encourages you to do so... Giving you 8 minutes to go downstairs and get the extension...

Travel by Leaving From Platform To Arriving Platform Duration Additional info
Train 17:40 Old Street [OLD] 3 Finsbury Park [FPK]
17:50 6 0h 10m

First Capital Connect service from Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City show calling points

Train 17:58 Finsbury Park [FPK] 5 Welwyn Garden City [WGC]
18:15 3 0h 17m



Calling points Arrives Departs

First Capital Connect service from London Kings Cross to Cambridge

 

[Deerfold]

NR's journey planner encourages you to do so... Giving you 8 minutes to go downstairs and get the extension...

Travel by Leaving From Platform To Arriving Platform Duration Additional info
Train 17:40 Old Street [OLD] 3 Finsbury Park [FPK]
17:50 6 0h 10m

First Capital Connect service from Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City show calling points

Train 17:58 Finsbury Park [FPK] 5 Welwyn Garden City [WGC]
18:15 3 0h 17m



Calling points Arrives Departs

First Capital Connect service from London Kings Cross to Cambridge

I'd say 8 minutes is rather tight to do that, given the layout and busy-ness of Finsbury Park - and your odds of a seat on the second train are low - if I'd got one I'd be loathe to change.

 

[Mojo]

It only encourages you to do that as only every other train from Old Street goes to WGC and some are overtaken. For many it is easier to stay on the direct service, especially given I doubt you could buy a ticket at Finsbury Park in 8 Min.

 

[Greenback]

Could I just suggest that you change one part of your statement?
You've claimed "b) I kept saying that I've done this many times before."
Might be better to claim that you had been informed that it was acceptable to do this, on however-many times before, by employees of xxxxx. (I'm assuming that you had been informed)

Reason being, that while the matter is in dispute, then your argument b) invites the reply "you've been lucky that you've got away with it so often, and that's by your own admission." This risks incriminating you further.
Whereas my suggestion puts the responsibility for the advice onto the company (the staff who had told you it was okay), responsibility for advice that is now being contradicted by other staff. This compounds your criticism of the company by adding inconsistency to your claim.

As far as I can see, and please correct me if I am wrong, the dispute is actually over whether a ticket extension can be bought at Old Street (run by LUL)before travel. The Op says it can't be bought, and has some documentary evidence in support of this. The RPI, however, has issued a PF because they are adamant that an extension CAN be bought at Old Street, and that therefore a PF should be given because Mr Morris had the opportunity to purchase the ticket before boarding and chose not to.

Nobody appears to be disputing, or questioning, the right to be able to travel to a destination without a valid ticket where there was no opportunity to buy said ticket beforehand. Therefore, Mr Morris is ot acting on the advice of 'staff' he has directly asked the TOC what he should do, and been advised accordingly. He has also checked the NCoC, and is quite within his rights to travel on to WGC. In that respect he is fine to say he has done this loads of times as it is perfectly acceptable, and no one seems to be saying otherwise except one RPI!

Maybe getting off at Finsbury Pk, rebooking to WGC there and catching a fast train to WGC would be easier. Just a thought!

No, why should the customer be incovneienced because of factors outside their control? By inconvenience I mean alighting at what may possibly be an unfamiliar station, finding the ticket office, returning to the platform and waiting for another train. How long might this add to the overall journey?

Without the right to travel without beign PF'd where there is no opportunity to buy a ticket before travel, what would happen in the common situations where a ticket office is closed, the TVM is broken/won't accept your money/can't issue an extension? I'm sure it would be very popular with TOC's, though!

 

[jon0844]

I'd never get a ticket in 8 minutes, having walked down from platform 6 to the exit - queued up (TVMs can't do extensions either) and walked back to platform 5.

As stated above, you'd be standing all the way - albeit for a shorter time than on the slow service (where you will get a seat unless the service is short formed).

Don't get me wrong, if I did get off at FPK or go to King's Cross and want to travel beyond Hatfield, I'd queue up and get the next train I could. But, I don't see why I should now be going all around the houses to get a ticket because I can't get it at the starting station and I'm told to pay at the destination.

Now if FCC wants to issue me with a bunch of pre-paid ticket extensions that I can use (like a carnet system) with no expiration, then I'll happily buy them. But, even then, you'd still have people who hadn't bought them in advance and would be in the same situation - however rare.

What's ironic is that when I was being dealt with, a lady that was on the same train as me had boarded at Welham Green and simply said the ticket office was closed - and she was allowed to buy a ticket no questions asked. They never checked if the TVM was operational.

I'd love to do an experiment to see what would happen if someone else, rather more attractive, had given the same story. Would they have been given the ticket as a 'goodwill gesture' or simply let out? However, that's a whole different thread for another day....!

 

[yorkie]

Maybe getting off at Finsbury Pk, rebooking to WGC there and catching a fast train to WGC would be easier. Just a thought!

How is that "easier"?

Can you give an example of a regular journey you do, I will then assess how it can be made easier (it could be a car journey). I will use a similar definition of easier, trust me

1755 from Old St calls at Finsbury Park 1805, Hatfield 1837, WGC 1841. Given the scan of the image showing Hatfield 1837 I believe jonmorris0844 was on this service.

The fast service departs Finsbury Park at 1826 and runs on the slow line to Welwyn Garden City arriving 1845. That's not fast at all!

There's no way a customer should be delayed into their destination by 8 minutes, have to wait at a cold station for 21 minutes, and stand up on a wedged train for 17 minutes (instead of being sat down) and go up and down stairs and queue, and there is no obligation for the customer to do that. If anyone is proposing to oblige customers to do that, please give your reasons so I can pick them apart one by one.

 

[jon0844]

It was actually the 1740 service I got, due to arrive at Hatfield around 1821 and, at a guess, WGC around 1825/6. It was delayed along the way though, so I arrived around 1829 or so.

The idea of getting off at FPK to get on a faster service 8 minutes later is perhaps valid if I already had a ticket (e.g. a season ticket from WGC as I lived there), but you'd still go from being seated to standing. Might be worthwhile if you were in a rush, but I'd usually prefer to stay on the same train.

I've made the mistake of getting off a train for another one before, only to find it's delayed, cancelled or the overhead lines come down and my old train was the last one to get through!

 

[ungreat]

Bloody fare dodgers eh..I dont know,whats the world coming to

Good luck mate..don't think you'll need it though!

 

[jon0844]

I bet he has a great record as an RPI, because when he DOES catch someone who was fare evading, he's probably right on the ball. I bet the chip on his shoulder really helps him get one over the real fare evaders. In a way, I should be commending him.

Sadly, he seems to be totally unable to accept he might be wrong or know how to deal with those people who aren't playing him. Clearly that's a very big weakness.

Still waiting to hear from FCC, so will give it until the end of play tomorrow before I send in my appeal.

 

[ungreat]

You always get them mate..hang in there and dont give up
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
He's well balanced by the sound of it..he has a chip on both shoulders!

 

[t0ffeeman]

As usual people on this forum read into things.

Most passengers do not find changing to a fast train at Finsbury Pk inconvenient. They do this all the time otherwise the Stevenage via Watton would be packed solid instead of empty as it approaches its destination.

I am not saying TOCs should make passengers get off trains to buy the correct ticket. Far from it. However in John's case it would have been advantageous to do so.

By changing purchasing the extension there...

It would be easier to leave WGC station has John wouldn't have to prove Old St couldn't sell the ticket etc.
It arrived at WGC earlier.You'd be travelling on a nice 365 instead of a freezing 313. It doesn't work for all trains, but in John's journey it did.
Yes, John may not have got a seat. However the since the May 2009 timetable there are plenty more seats. I regularly have 4 seats to meyself, something unheard of before.
8 minutes to get to the FCC windows at Finsbury Pk should be ample. Yesterday at 1800 I got there within 30 secs of my train arriving and there was only a small queue. Most using the 6+ TVMs at the station or Oyster.
If it looks like 8 mins isn't enough time you just backtrack and start your conversation with the RPI earlier at WGC.

Good luck John hope your PF gets thrown out quickly and easily.

 

[jon0844]

8 minutes is plenty of time to get TO the ticket window! But, you do have to queue up and buy a ticket - and that isn't quick. So I don't have the full eight minutes to queue, which includes the time getting in and out of the station, and works on the basis that the 'freezing 313' is on time and hasn't already gone 1 or 2 minutes down by FPK, having been delayed by the Hertford North train just 5 minutes previous. Also, even though a 365 or 321 is a lot nicer, I always get a seat easily and can relax watching a film on my phone - or read the paper - and the journey is perfectly relaxing (and when I look up after Potters Bar, usually empty!). People on the GN route are pretty well served by trains, it must be said.

Now I accept that the change of train would get me to WGC quicker. As it happens, I didn't know of this because that train doesn't stop at Hatfield, but this is a totally different argument. If I can't get a ticket when I board, I must pay at the earliest opportunity or at the end. Surely there's no requirement to change train to make that opportunity? If I opted to change at FPK to get a quicker train, then that's my opportunity and I must buy one. If I opt to stay on the train, I buy at the end. Simple, no?

To me, it would be a serious gamble if I opted to change at FPK. Will I get the ticket in time, or miss the train and now have to get the next slow all-station 'freezing 313', which won't get me my easy seat as it picked up many people between Old Street and Finsbury Park that aren't getting off yet.

I'm not sure about the last bit you said;

'If it looks like 8 mins isn't enough time you just backtrack and start your conversation with the RPI earlier at WGC.'

??

Are you saying I board the next slow train that originated from Old Street and go to WGC as normal? Then I would be lying, as I did have an opportunity to buy a ticket.

Or are you saying that I find an RPI before getting to WGC, except the trains are DOO and it would be pure chance that there are RPIs on board.

Can you please rephrase that for me? I'm genuinely confused.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Just saying that if you couldn't buy at Finsbury Pk you walk back to Platform 5 to catch the fast train which gets to WGC earlier, to then talk to that RPI earlier.

Surely, your "journey" would still have started at Old Street and your original arguement exists. Also, the fact that you've tried and failed to purchase an extension (for the second time) at Finsbury Pk works in your favour.

 

[jon0844]

But I couldn't. Once I get off at FPK, I now have a chance to get a ticket and must do so - even if it means missing the train.

I've been somewhere where I can get a ticket and chose not to do so. That, to me, would make me fully and justifiably liable for a PF.

 

[Deerfold]

As usual people on this forum read into things.

Most passengers do not find changing to a fast train at Finsbury Pk inconvenient. They do this all the time otherwise the Stevenage via Watton would be packed solid instead of empty as it approaches its destination.

That depends - if they haven't got a seat, they've little to lose. But getting on at Old Street, they've probably got a seat. There's probably a complicated little calculation, unique to each passenger based on how much time it'll save, how much they'll lose if the connecting train misses, if it benefits them in the long run (if they'll end up on the same hourly bus from the station or get one 30 minutes sooner because of a saving of 10 minutes for example).

 

[yorkie]

Most passengers do not find changing to a fast train at Finsbury Pk inconvenient. They do this all the time otherwise the Stevenage via Watton would be packed solid instead of empty as it approaches its destination.

You are now discussing a journey to Stevenage. That's completely different. The journey time from Finsbury Park to Stevenage is actually about the same as from Finsbury Park to Welwyn. This is because there are genuine fast trains to Stevenage, that go at 100mph, rather than ambling along the slow line, and you compared that to a journey that is longer and slower by direct train.

We are discussing a journey to Welwyn Garden City, not to Stevenage. There's a big difference between the two.

I am not saying TOCs should make passengers get off trains to buy the correct ticket. Far from it.

Good. So why suggest it?

However in John's case it would have been advantageous to do so.

We have already demonstrated it would not be advantageous to do for someone who values a seat over a very small journey time reduction.

By changing purchasing the extension there...

It would be easier to leave WGC station has John wouldn't have to prove Old St couldn't sell the ticket etc.

John does NOT "have to prove" Old St couldn't sell the ticket.

It arrived at WGC earlier.You'd be travelling on a nice 365 instead of a freezing 313. It doesn't work for all trains, but in John's journey it did.
Yes, John may not have got a seat. However the since the May 2009 timetable there are plenty more seats. I regularly have 4 seats to meyself, something unheard of before.

Very unlikely to get 4 seats on the service in question. It runs in the semi-fast path of trains that normally stop at Potters Bar and Hatfield. It is timed no quicker than those trains yet has the same journey time as it gets stuck behind 313s. Why does it not call at Potters Bar / Hatfield? Not to be any quicker - it isn't. It does not call at those stations as a crowd control measure.

8 minutes to get to the FCC windows at Finsbury Pk should be ample.

Just to get to the window? Yeah, sure, but just getting to a window in 8 minutes does not get you back on the train in 8 minutes does it?

Yesterday at 1800 I got there within 30 secs of my train arriving and there was only a small queue. Most using the 6+ TVMs at the station or Oyster.
If it looks like 8 mins isn't enough time you just backtrack and start your conversation with the RPI earlier at WGC.

Dodgy. While I agree in principle that this us fine, I'd say that it gives the RPIs more cause for concern and could make them more likely to attempt a penalty fare. I agree that a PF would not apply as the original journey still applies, it's a valid connection and if you can't get an onward ticket that is FCCs problem. However if the RPIs are going to be bullying people on direct trains then they're going to be even more likely to be bullying people who change at Finsbury Park as they will then not only be arguing (falsely) that the ticket should have been bought at Drayton Park but they may also argue that it should have been bought at Finsbury Park.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But I couldn't. Once I get off at FPK, I now have a chance to get a ticket and must do so - even if it means missing the train.

I've been somewhere where I can get a ticket and chose not to do so. That, to me, would make me fully and justifiably liable for a PF.

You don't have to, and that's wrong. If it is a valid connection and there is not enough time to buy at the interchange station you are not compelled to miss your train. If you can find out who says otherwise, we can challenge them.

t0ffeeman is correct on this issue.

However the RPIs may well argue otherwise.

 

[jon0844]

You don't have to, and that's wrong. If it is a valid connection and there is not enough time to buy at the interchange station you are not compelled to miss your train. If you can find out who says otherwise, we can challenge them.

t0ffeeman is correct on this issue.

However the RPIs may well argue otherwise.

That's interesting and makes sense, but I am sure that this will get me into an argument over the issue of whether I did, or didn't, have time to get a ticket. It's really not worth the hassle, including that of changing train, losing a seat...

But, this does introduce a new issue; which is that I can now travel a lot further than WGC and still be able to get a ticket at the other end. I can imagine an even bigger argument if that train goes to Peterborough or Cambridge. Imagine the argument at Cambridge where the RPIs are from National Express!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1657: I didn't get a response from FCC, so my appeal letter has been written - with all supporting material attached, including copies of my season tickets.

In the post in the next ten minutes.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Yorkie, I am not interested in reading your posts

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie, I am not interested in reading your posts

OK, that's your choice.

 

[jon0844]

Yorkie, I am not interested in reading your posts

Wow, that sounds similar to the RPI that wasn't interested in listening to me!!!

(And Yorkie actually agreed with a lot of what you said too).

 

[t0ffeeman]

Will talk to you John, just not to others. Me & you travel the same journeys on FCC, It makes a lot of difference.

 

[yorkie]

There is a PM facility for that. Or you are welcome to ignore my posts if you wish to continue on this thread. I'll still reply if I feel it's relevant, whether you read it or not is your choice.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on the route, although I am more likely to be on a EC train, I have got FCC trains on several occasions so I do have an idea of what I am talking about. But if I'm wrong, and the the trains that normally call at Hatfield/Potters Bar but omit those stations to run 'fast' to WGC are actually fairly empty and have bays of 4 going spare, then you're welcome to correct me and I'll listen to the evidence. It may be worth suggesting to FCC that they re-instate calls at Potters Bar/Hatfield on those trains if there's spare seats going.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

This very much reminds me of the FCC strike when I complained that FCC staff should just do the job they are paid to do instead of waging war on their customers. At tat time, all manner of people connected in some way with FCC or the rail industry were on hand to "explain" to me why a strike was necessary.

Similar in attitude, in fact, to the RPI being described in this thread. Completely above his station and awful at his job. If he were good at his job then a) he would know about the ticketing issues (as it is his job to know) and b) in the event of a PF being issued, the customer would have gone away feeling fairly dealt with and having had a full and reasonable explanation as to why this had happened - after all, it is a fair cop......

Not in this case though. Unfortunately, this appears to be another example of FCC spitting in the faces of their customers.

 

[Tom C]

This very much reminds me of the FCC strike when I complained that FCC staff should just do the job they are paid to do instead of waging war on their customers. At tat time, all manner of people connected in some way with FCC or the rail industry were on hand to "explain" to me why a strike was necessary.

Before I reply, I just want to apologise because I know that we have been over this so many times that it is painfully boring.........so sorry in advance.

What strike?

No member of staff at FCC, Thameslink or WAGN have taken any industrial action since privatisation.

So I am not sure what war we have waged against passengers because unless I have developed Dementia there has been no war.

With regards to the topic in question, we can go on and on trying to play one upsmanship with conditions of carriage and long and boring ifs and buts but the facts are very simple. If Jon did not have the opportunity to purchase the extention to his season ticket at Old Street station then he should not have been charged a Penalty Fare and the RPI in question was wrong in doing so. Jon would have made his appeal to IPFAS by now and indeed written to the company to raise his grievance.

I hope Jon will keep us informed with regards to the outcome.

 

[jon0844]

Of course I will let everyone know! The appeal was sent yesterday, and I'm yet to hear anything from FCC directly.

I must admit, I don't see any link between the driver action and the skills and training of an RPI. I am not instantly blaming FCC, because he could have had all the training in the world and still not known or remembered!

I am trying to play devil's advocate and see things from his side; and I'd say that he would probably be a very good member of staff to deal with the fare evaders that try it on day in, day out. Sadly, he's been unable to get out of that 'hit 'em hard' mode - and that's his weakness.

Others are far too quick (in my experience from watching) to let people off, or just give a PFN when they should be referring people to court. Which would FCC prefer to employ?

 

[xtradj]

mate you got caught so just pay it, whats £20?

you could have got off at Hatfield but didnt as you didnt want to que. I see your point, but technically you could have bought an extension at Hatfield as annoying as it sounds

i got a £20 on the spot fine on the Newcastle metro. I dont live there and have only visted once. I had notes on me, and the ticket machines ONLY accepted coins. Once i arrived at Newcastle from South Shields i explained i only had notes and would pay now, but they wouldnt let me. Very unfair as i explained i wasnt even local, but this is life! Technically i could have waited for the next train and changed my notes into coins. So i had no arguement just like yourself

 

[A60K]

Xtradj, if you've actually read the thread and believe in what you write then it's not worth responding to you! This is a problem of the railway company's making for not being able to issue the correct ticket, not the passenger's fault. The railway company are in breach of their legal obligations under the National Conditions of Carriage. Read those and all the posts again if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Ferret]

I have to say that given 'opportunity to buy' (a ticket) is key, there is a huge temptation to point out to FCC that if they adequately staffed their trains, there wouldn't be an issue.....

 

[Chris-P]

mate you got caught so just pay it, whats £20?

you could have got off at Hatfield but didnt as you didnt want to que. I see your point, but technically you could have bought an extension at Hatfield as annoying as it sounds

i got a £20 on the spot fine on the Newcastle metro. I dont live there and have only visted once. I had notes on me, and the ticket machines ONLY accepted coins. Once i arrived at Newcastle from South Shields i explained i only had notes and would pay now, but they wouldnt let me. Very unfair as i explained i wasnt even local, but this is life! Technically i could have waited for the next train and changed my notes into coins. So i had no arguement just like yourself

only difference being, he does have a valid argument (no opportunity to buy said ticket at the station he boarded at as they don't offer it) AND he had confirmation from the managers that he was right!