LM & First Class Post

Status
Not open for further replies.

mugam4

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2016
Messages
114
About a month ago I bought some tickets to travel with Southern, for £14 (full price £48). I didn't want to use Southern's new booking engine so I booked with London Midland, and chose the free post as delivery.

They didn't turn up after a few days, so I called LM and they said that was fine, and to call them a few days before I travel to arrange 'ticketless travel'.

A month passes by and the £14 deal sells out. Yesterday I called them and they went back on their word and said that since I was travelling with Southern, they couldn't do anything. I pressed them, and they agreed to call Southern. They came back on the line to say that Southern had refused to help and I would need to purchase some more tickets for £28 (the current lowest Advance price), but a manager would call me back the next day.

I then called Southern who said that while London Midland shouldn't need to deal with them to replace the tickets, they always give benefit of the doubt to customers in these cases.

After no callback, I called LM again this evening and told them Southern had no problem. They called Southern again and said that they said no, and that they could only issue 'ticketless travel' for journeys wholly on London Midland, and they could not reissue tickets and I would have to buy the tickets again. I agreed to pay the £14 again since they had told me to wait, but they refused and I am told a manager will call me back tomorrow.

Will LM offer me £14? Is it acceptable for them to just refuse?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

mugam4

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2016
Messages
114
the £14 initially paid. Full fare is £48, the advance tickets available at the moment are £28.

(London Victoria to Southampton Central)
 

cjmillsnun

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
3,059
Always either collect "ticket on departure" (known as ToD - collect from the machines in the station) or by signed for post. Standard post has issues like this.

IMO the best option is ToD. You can normally collect within minutes (certainly within a couple of hours) of booking, and you have the tickets printed there and then.

I suspect you will have to write the £14 off as the standard post is not insured. It is bad customer service from LM to fob you off like that and you may get something from the manager (probably rail travel vouchers)

I coincidentally cannot find advance fares at all for that journey and the standard off peak day return is £39.80 (Valid from either Victoria or Waterloo), so I am unsure where you got £48 from.

Personally I would never choose that route for more than one reason. Even if it cost more I'd probably go with SWT from Waterloo.

1. That particular route is subject to delays and cancellations more often than not.

2. It is an hour slower than going from Waterloo. (between 1:15 - 1:30 from Waterloo and 2:30 or even longer from Victoria - if everything is running well)

3. The trains from Waterloo are generally more comfortable than the ones from Victoria.
 
Last edited:

cjmillsnun

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
3,059
Even Special Delivery won't insure against consequential loss - you'd just get your £14 back. TBH, they should probably (and probably will soon enough) just do away with postal delivery; it's more trouble than it's worth.

Yes but you'd get the £14 back almost straightaway and not lose out on the fare. The OP supposedly had a month in which they could get that deal.
 

mugam4

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2016
Messages
114
I coincidentally cannot find advance fares at all for that journey and the standard off peak day return is £39.80 (Valid from either Victoria or Waterloo), so I am unsure where you got £48 from.
I guess they've now sold out, I'll use SWT.
Personally I would never choose that route for more than one reason. Even if it cost more I'd probably go with SWT from Waterloo.

1. That particular route is subject to delays and cancellations more often than not.

2. It is an hour slower than going from Waterloo. (between 1:15 - 1:30 from Waterloo and 2:30 or even longer from Victoria - if everything is running well)

3. The trains from Waterloo are generally more comfortable than the ones from Victoria.
I'm aware of all of those - price is very important to me! Although I must say the coaches with tables of the 377s are nicer than the 444s in my opinion. £14 for two people undercuts SWT so far. I won't be using the post again, thanks for your help!
The OP supposedly had a month in which they could get that deal.
Yep, I booked with LM for the mixing deck (now gone) so I could get this fare to show up. I think they should refund me since they told me to wait, which cost me money
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,619
Location
Isle of Man
As you've discovered, most TOCs will re-issue tickets that have gone missing in the post. East Coast have done it for me before without even the smallest bit of wibble, which is good, seeing as East Coast have also sent me someone else's tickets before now.

Not London Midland, though, not them. Their T&Cs state that they're not responsible if tickets go missing in the post, and you will need to buy new tickets if they don't turn up. The moral of the story is don't buy tickets from London Midland. If you wish to use the WebTIS booking engine I'd recommend either TPE or Hull Trains, both of whom give Quidco cashback as well as Nectar points on all purchases as well as not having a "not our problem guv" clause in their T&Cs.
 

CheesyChips

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
217
Would a credit/debit card chargeback be appropriate here if no refund is forthcoming? I believe the onus is on the seller to prove the delivery was completed and LM simply wouldn't be able to do this.

The OP would still have to buy new tickets but wouldn't lose their £14 initially paid.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,619
Location
Isle of Man
Would a credit/debit card chargeback be appropriate here if no refund is forthcoming? I believe the onus is on the seller to prove the delivery was completed and LM simply wouldn't be able to do this.

LM's conditions of sale are that they are not responsible if tickets go missing in the post. Whether these conditions are fair or enforceable is a matter of opinion.

There has been no consensus on previous threads, but the fact this question's come up several times before implies that LM aren't good at ensuring delivery.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
68,078
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Would a credit/debit card chargeback be appropriate here if no refund is forthcoming? I believe the onus is on the seller to prove the delivery was completed and LM simply wouldn't be able to do this.

If this is actually the case, the TOCs are negligent in using regular post for an item of value they will not replace, and it should certainly be withdrawn. (FWIW, when I sell things on eBay I refuse to use non-tracked post, regardless of the item's value, precisely because of that responsibility).
 
Last edited:

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Please start a new thread for discussions about the postal service, and anything else that isn't directly relevant to the OP's situation. Thanks.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
5,363
Location
Merseyside
LM's conditions of sale are that they are not responsible if tickets go missing in the post. Whether these conditions are fair or enforceable is a matter of opinion.

There has been no consensus on previous threads, but the fact this question's come up several times before implies that LM aren't good at ensuring delivery.

Perhaps this could be challenged as unfair trading.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
371
It is unfair because the customer has paid for a service which they do not receive due to the failure of the seller to deliver the ticket to the customer.

I'm not clear how that could be anything other than unfair.


I don't think it's professionally diligent to offer that type of delivery service if they aren't willing to replace lost tickets.

In terms of practical advice, it would be worth looking at the complaints process and working through it.
I think that you ought to be able to complain about this under the most recent consumer regulations,
so it might be worth inspecting the guidance to see if it fits.
 
Last edited:

Clip

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,616
It is unfair because the customer has paid for a service which they do not receive due to the failure of the seller to deliver the ticket to the customer.

I'm not clear how that could be anything other than unfair.


I don't think it's professionally diligent to offer that type of delivery service if they aren't willing to replace lost tickets.

In terms of practical advice, it would be worth looking at the complaints process and working through it.
I think that you ought to be able to complain about this under the most recent consumer regulations,
so it might be worth inspecting the guidance to see if it fits.

That is NOT unfair trading. That happens to be something that has gone wrong with the service provider that LM use - the Royal Mail.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,665
Location
Scotland
It is unfair because the customer has paid for a service which they do not receive due to the failure of the seller to deliver the ticket to the customer.

I'm not clear how that could be anything other than unfair.
The customer has the option to pay for guaranteed delivery, or to collect on departure for free.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
371
As I said, I don't think it's professionally diligent to use an unreliable delivery service and not offer replacement.

Do you disagree?
 

Clip

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,616
As I said, I don't think it's professionally diligent to use an unreliable delivery service and not offer replacement.

Do you disagree?

not offering a replacement is wrong of them however it is still not defined as 'unfair trading' there are other options.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
371
You see it more as a breech of contract then, or something else?


They way I first saw that was offering a service where they knew that they might fail to provide it, while simultaneously intending to refuse refunds when things went wrong.

Which I saw as being unfair trading.


The obvious commercial aspect being that someone might buy from that seller of tickets rather than another which charged more for delivery.
 
Last edited:

bignosemac

On Moderation
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,981
Shoddy, but not unexpected, treatment from London Midland. Failure to deliver is a breach of contract.

One option for financial recourse would be a claim for compensation from Royal Mail. I would however be asking London Midland for proof the tickets were issued and posted. Another option is, if you paid by Debit Card, a chargeback.
 
Last edited:

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,619
Location
Isle of Man
not offering a replacement is wrong of them however it is still not defined as 'unfair trading' there are other options.

Indeed. The Consumer Protection Regulations only apply to goods and it is a grey area whether a railway ticket is a good- which is defined as something tangible you can hold- or whether it is simply a token enabling access to a service.

London Midland's attitude in restricting liability in this way is pretty shameful though, as so much to do with that company is. Most other TOCs don't restrict liability. I would recommend that the OP uses another retailer in future.

As an aside, London Midland should be able to prove that the tickets were posted to you. As I mentioned elsewhere up the thread, about 18 months ago I received a Harrogate-London ticket belonging to someone else in amongst all the tickets I ordered and had posted by East Coast. Mistakes happen, as the printing and posting is not automated. If they can't prove they were posted, that may be an avenue to explore with them.
 
Last edited:

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
What should happen is that LM replace the tickets, and take the matter up with Royal Mail. As far as I see it here, the passenger has a contract with LM, and the latter has a contract with Royal Mail. To the best of my knowledge, it's always the sender that has to make enquiries and seek redress for any losses.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
371
My belief is still that there is something legally wrong with what's happening here.

However I accept that my interpretation may be in error.

I think what's really needed is a proper set of regulations by the government on exactly what the requirements are, specifically covering the sale of rail tickets. if they're not covered by the current rules I firmly believe that it was an oversight rather than intent.


(Removed comment about prosecutions)
 
Last edited:

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,665
Location
Scotland
What should happen is that LM replace the tickets, and take the matter up with Royal Mail. As far as I see it here, the passenger has a contract with LM, and the latter has a contract with Royal Mail. To the best of my knowledge, it's always the sender that has to make enquiries and seek redress for any losses.
If the TOC is responsible for lost tickets we can kiss free postage goodbye.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,619
Location
Isle of Man
Be careful what you wish for. A TOC doesn't have to offer free or £1 first class postage, they can insist (as most concert ticket retailers do) that all tickets that need posting are sent by special delivery.

If the TOC is responsible for lost tickets we can kiss free postage goodbye.

That said, most TOCs who offer free postage do accept responsibility for tickets that go missing in the post. I've had no issue with any of the First retailers when tickets have gone missing.

It only seems to be London Midland and SouthEastern who have this attitude. Says a lot about GoVia, not that much needs saying about that set of shysters.
 
Last edited:

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
371
I actually think it will probably end up that way actually (100% recorded delivery)

I can't see how they can do anything else.

Offering random refunds to tickets lost (genuinely as in this case and otherwise) seems impossible in the long run.

I'm critical because they offered standard postage without properly thinking it though.
 
Last edited:

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,665
Location
Scotland
That said, most TOCs who offer free postage do accept responsibility for tickets that go missing in the post. I've had no issue with any of the First retailers when tickets have gone missing.
I think currently they are offered on a goodwill basis - they know people won't really try to 'game' the system. Make it an obligation and the bean counters will cut it as it would represent a risk.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
371
I think currently they are offered on a goodwill basis - they know people won't really try to 'game' the system. Make it an obligation and the bean counters will cut it as it would represent a risk.

Yes, I agree. At least some of them will be very carefully tracking how many tickets are lost and whether people get repeated runs of lost tickets.

Amazon does this for lost parcels and refunds, and I think the DVD rental by post people certainly did too.

edit: I agree that unregistered post may be cut off as a risk, although I still believe (perhaps incorrectly) that there is a legal obligation to deliver the ticket and provide the service.
 
Last edited:

bignosemac

On Moderation
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,981
I think currently they are offered on a goodwill basis - they know people won't really try to 'game' the system. Make it an obligation and the bean counters will cut it as it would represent a risk.

Yes, because the rail industry and their regular apologists here can't be seen to ever be consumer friendly.
 
Last edited:

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,119
Can we stay away from attacking each other and stick to the core topic please?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top