LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[ChilternTurbo]

The plates are owned by Eversholt, not LNER. I’m trying to get them rescued!

I didn't realise that. I assumed that nameplates were usually the property of the train operator. I hope they do get salvaged and let us know how you get on. I can't ever think of a time when locos have been towed for scrapping with their nameplates still in place...

 

[Tynwald]

Lots of other goodies on there. Like the traction electronics cards, maybe they have already been removed.

 

[D365]

Lots of other goodies on there. Like the traction electronics cards, maybe they have already been removed.

I could imagine Eversholt wanting the EEPROMs to be disposed of securely…

 

[Jamesrob637]

My 57 brings all the 91s to the yard, and damn right it's older than yours.

(Remembering that the 57 is actually over half a century old!)

 

[trebor79]

I could imagine Eversholt wanting the EEPROMs to be disposed of securely…

Why?

 

[D365]

Why?

Proprietary software code stored on them.

 

[scotrail170407]

91110 NL26 82223 currently stood at Doncaster on 1A09 to Kings Cross

 

[adrock1976]

91110 NL26 82223 currently stood at Doncaster on 1A09 to Kings Cross

Are the Mk IVs home depot Neville Hill now instead of Bounds Green, or was that a typo in the set number?

 

[DanNCL]

Are the Mk IVs home depot Neville Hill now instead of Bounds Green, or was that a typo in the set number?

The 91s and Mark 4s are now based at Neville Hill.

 

[55002]

Looks good as well the 91

 

[adrock1976]

The 91s and Mark 4s are now based at Neville Hill.

Many thanks.

 

[Roast Veg]

Proprietary software code stored on them.

The software on those will have been written by BREL surely - who would be enforcing any copyright on it? Based on the age of them, I'd assume it to be no more then a few kilobytes of handwritten assembly with no commercial sensitivity associated. The law is a little hazy around compiled works versus source code (there are many reverse-engineering projects that fall into a grey area), but since the raw data on the EEPROMs is assembled I wouldn't expect any special treatment over them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The software on those will have been written by BREL surely - who would be enforcing any copyright on it? Based on the age of them, I'd assume it to be no more then a few kilobytes of handwritten assembly with no commercial sensitivity associated. The law is a little hazy around compiled works versus source code (there are many reverse-engineering projects that fall into a grey area), but since the raw data on the EEPROMs is assembled I wouldn't expect any special treatment over them.

By and large people don't care about obsolete software. I doubt for example M$ are spending time and money pursuing anyone who has a ripped-off copy of Windows 3.1.

Copyright gives the owner the right to enforce it, but it doesn't give them an obligation to do so.

 

[DustyBin]

Because there are probably enthusiasts who will pay more for the nameplate than the scrap metal is worth. On the subject of the shredder, assuming rail vehicles are made mainly of aluminum and magnetic steel, are any components made of other metals removed before shredding? The aluminum shreds could then be seperated from the steel ones with a big magnet - but I'm only guessing here how they work.

The ferrous metal is removed magnetically following shredding but I believe everything is fed in together. In theory a small piece of say aluminium could remain attached to a small piece of steel but presumably the chance of this is slim and not worth worrying about. The non-ferrous metals are separated from the non-metal waste using air (basically fans blow the lighter waste away) and from each other using eddy currents (clever!). Finally the non metal waste is sifted through by hand to pick out any stray pieces of metal.

Having said all of the that, I’d be surprised if a large piece of easily identifiable non-ferrous metal, like say a brass nameplate, isn’t simply removed and processed separately, as long as it’s an easy enough operation to do so.

 

[43096]

The software on those will have been written by BREL surely - who would be enforcing any copyright on it? Based on the age of them, I'd assume it to be no more then a few kilobytes of handwritten assembly with no commercial sensitivity associated. The law is a little hazy around compiled works versus source code (there are many reverse-engineering projects that fall into a grey area), but since the raw data on the EEPROMs is assembled I wouldn't expect any special treatment over them.

Written by GEC-Alsthom rather than BREL, assuming it’s original or Alstom if it dates from refurbishment. Either way, it would now fall under Alstom.

 

[Tynwald]

By and large people don't care about obsolete software. I doubt for example M$ are spending time and money pursuing anyone who has a ripped-off copy of Windows 3.1.

Copyright gives the owner the right to enforce it, but it doesn't give them an obligation to do so.

GEC Transportation projects were the electrical supplier, and hence supplied the traction electronics. Nobody would be the slightest bit interested in the EPROMS, and operating software, unless you operated some class 91. Other cards would be more useful to say class 90, class 465, or to class 319 operators.

 

[A0wen]

By and large people don't care about obsolete software. I doubt for example M$ are spending time and money pursuing anyone who has a ripped-off copy of Windows 3.1.

Copyright gives the owner the right to enforce it, but it doesn't give them an obligation to do so.

Domestic software like Windows 3.1 - no.

But commercial software (which you should be familiar with) most definitely - SCO UNIX being the obvious one but also Coolgen as I recall - particularly where the ownership of the product has changed hands.

 

[trebor79]

I really doubt anyone is the slightest bit interested in whatever code is in the traction electronics. It's what, 30 -35 year old technology written for a specific locomotive class.
In any case it sounds like the EEPROMs and everything else will be comprehensively destroyed. Must be a heck of a shredder! Is there a video of it anywhere?

 

[swt_passenger]

Must be a heck of a shredder! Is there a video of it anywhere?

Yes, but not actually shredding a train. It’s been linked a few times in other threads, eg the one about 321s here:

Class 321 storage/scrapping

From videos I have seen of the shredder at Newport, an entire and intact railway carriage could not be put in it. The bodywork is pulled apart using a mechanical grab so that it's broken down into more manageable pieces. Looking at pictures in the HST Mk3 carriage disposals thread, it would...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

But commercial software (which you should be familiar with) most definitely - SCO UNIX being the obvious one but also Coolgen as I recall - particularly where the ownership of the product has changed hands.

Only if it would be profitable to do so. Protecting the copyright of those two examples was very, very profitable due to their ubiquity.

The traction software on an obsolete class of locomotive, not so much.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The ferrous metal is removed magnetically following shredding but I believe everything is fed in together. In theory a small piece of say aluminium could remain attached to a small piece of steel but presumably the chance of this is slim and not worth worrying about. The non-ferrous metals are separated from the non-metal waste using air (basically fans blow the lighter waste away) and from each other using eddy currents (clever!). Finally the non metal waste is sifted through by hand to pick out any stray pieces of metal.

Having said all of the that, I’d be surprised if a large piece of easily identifiable non-ferrous metal, like say a brass nameplate, isn’t simply removed and processed separately, as long as it’s an easy enough operation to do so.

Thanks for the reply; that stuff about fans and eddy currents does indeed sound rather clever.

 

[alistairlees]

The nameplates were removed (officially) this morning.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

The nameplates were removed (officially) this morning.

That's good to hear. Hopefully a deserving cause can benefit from their sale as per the previous LNER nameplate auction.

 

[Westcoastna]

Been today to Kings Cross to see 91110 back in action on the 1533 Kgx - Lds. Great to see them back. 82223 on the rear. Perfect weather and a few about taking photos. Let's hope more return.

 

[Skutter]

The nameplates were removed (officially) this morning.

Good to hear that, hope they can contribute lots of cash to a worthy cause.

 

[DanNCL]

Seen reported that the 80x fleet, subject to ORR approval, may mostly be allowed back in service with the cracks under a strict monitoring program from Thursday. Assuming this happens, is that the 91s back off to storage until 7th June? Asking as I had planned to make a trip down for them on Thursday, but if they're going to be back in storage on Thursday I'm going to have to go tomorrow instead!

 

[43094]

I’d expect one 91 diagram (A09 D09 A30 D20 A46 D33) until Friday, with a possible second diagram on Thursday and/or Friday, too.

Unclear at this stage what happens beyond that.

 

[malc-c]

The nameplates were removed (officially) this morning.

That's good news, and if you had any part in that, well done for making them aware.

One thing that puzzled me, and I'm only an enthusiast that enjoys videoing trains rather than an employee of the railway companies or associated contractors like some on the forum, so pardon me for any ignorance, but give the destination was Newport, why did these 91's get dragged via the ECML. Would there not have been a more direct route they could have been taken? Not that I'm complaining as it gave me an opportunity to document the event, but it does seem the long way round.

 

[800001]

Seen reported that the 80x fleet, subject to ORR approval, may mostly be allowed back in service with the cracks under a strict monitoring program from Thursday. Assuming this happens, is that the 91s back off to storage until 7th June? Asking as I had planned to make a trip down for them on Thursday, but if they're going to be back in storage on Thursday I'm going to have to go tomorrow instead!

That's good news, and if you had any part in that, well done for making them aware.

One thing that puzzled me, and I'm only an enthusiast that enjoys videoing trains rather than an employee of the railway companies or associated contractors like some on the forum, so pardon me for any ignorance, but give the destination was Newport, why did these 91's get dragged via the ECML. Would there not have been a more direct route they could have been taken? Not that I'm complaining as it gave me an opportunity to document the event, but it does seem the long way round.

Would all depend on route clearance and driver knowledge

 

[YorksLad12]

Been today to Kings Cross to see 91110 back in action on the 1533 Kgx - Lds. Great to see them back. 82223 on the rear. Perfect weather and a few about taking photos. Let's hope more return.

I did happen to spot 91111 on the rear passing through Leeds earlier. First Class at the front/county end, so not sure if it's being pressed into service expediently or if it will be turned somewhere.

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