LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[Bletchleyite]

Can't argue with that logic.

I understand GTR (Southern) has made a number of changes to their timetable to move closer to that ideal for that precise reason. The 8-car all day MK diagrams are one example - it's considered better to run unnecessary spare capacity around than complicate by having different lengths of unit out on different diagrams.

 

[sd0733]

Another Sunday of utter chaos on the trent Valley. Last 3 southbound cancelled as well as numerous others during the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another Sunday of utter chaos on the trent Valley. Last 3 southbound cancelled as well as numerous others during the day.

Interesting that this is still going on on Sundays when the service is split at New St.

What was the cause of these? Is there a staff goodwill issue resulting in inadequate volunteers for Sunday working? They did after all add more services (2tph additionally between Northampton and Cov - it was hourly, it's now 3tph) - so I guess that means more staff needed who are not volunteering for whatever reason?

 

[sufian123]

Interesting that this is still going on on Sundays when the service is split at New St.

What was the cause of these? Is there a staff goodwill issue resulting in inadequate volunteers for Sunday working? They did after all add more services (2tph additionally between Northampton and Cov - it was hourly, it's now 3tph) - so I guess that means more staff needed who are not volunteering for whatever reason?

Sunday no spilts all through services between new st and Euston. Struggling is Trent valley route badly.

It seems not enough volunteers on Sunday’s. 4 weeks into new timetable and not resolved this issue.

 

[sd0733]

Interesting that this is still going on on Sundays when the service is split at New St.

What was the cause of these? Is there a staff goodwill issue resulting in inadequate volunteers for Sunday working? They did after all add more services (2tph additionally between Northampton and Cov - it was hourly, it's now 3tph) - so I guess that means more staff needed who are not volunteering for whatever reason?

It is because Northampton had Crewe work put onto a link with no Crewe work. Quite why some STP diagrams cant be done or its going to be like this for months.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sunday no spilts all through services between new st and Euston

I meant the service is not run through past New St, not that there is portion working.

 

[sufian123]

I meant the service is not run through past New St, not that there is portion working.

Got it

 

[RailWonderer]

The way I see this, the LNR timetable is a hot mess. Why mess with a timetable that worked fine, wasn't broken?
Now the train announcements go on for so long they are irritating, the PIS of the Desiro can't even keep up, reliability is down, I used Long Buckby and Rugby and the delays are more frequent and longer because the train comes all the way from Rugeley/Liverpool and having a /2 instead of a /1 or /3 is unacceptable. Separate the diagrams and keep /2s on Tring/Northamptons only and maybe the slow Euston - New St. Finally Skip calls south of MK. No commuter stations. They have their local services already. Plus any delay at Acton Bridge is going to affect a traveller 150 miles south who only needs a local/regional service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Finally Skip calls south of MK. No commuter stations. They have their local services already.

Er, no. Other than the Trent Valley service, the Birmingham services ARE the (semifast) local services. Provision of those local services is the primary purpose of the franchise in that area and all other purposes (such as the carriage of passengers across Northampton e.g. from Euston to Brum) are secondary.

Suggesting that the MKC/Tring local services (3tph in total) would be adequate for this purpose shows that you have no understanding of usage patterns and passenger numbers south of Northampton whatsoever.

There is, if it escaped your notice, a fast service south of Birmingham three times an hour operated by Virgin Trains.

 

[RailWonderer]

Suggesting that the MKC/Tring local services (3tph in total) would be adequate for this purpose shows that you have no understanding of usage patterns and passenger numbers south of Northampton whatsoever.

Sorry if I was unclear. Skip calls south of MK on one of the Euston to Birmingham LNR that calls a Watford then MK onwards - that can skip Watford. Leighton and Bletchley get a slow Brum, a semi fast Brum and an MK stopper. The rest of the other services can stay as they are, they just don't need to terminate north of Birmingham and Crewe. I know full well the service pattern. 4 coaches is never enough.
When the /4s come on make the slow Brum run non-stop to Leighton then Berkhemstead, Watford etc. and stations south can have a slow Northampton.

 

[pt_mad]

Bletchleyite nailed it when he said that you can't reduce stops on the south WCML in favour of the north as some posters may be suggesting. There are thousands upon thousands of daily commuters who head to and from the stops south of Milton Keynes and this was where the Silverlink operation came from and LM and LNR are the natural progression of that imo.

You'd still have to avoid terminating at Birmingham New Street to work with the new paths. There's Wolverhampton or Birmingham International. Not sure how full Wolverhampton is, can't imagine there's be huge space in there for terminators? If you terminated the Rugeley at Walsall presumably you'd need to run another local down the chase line to replace it and that would need another unit and Crew and space at New Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry if I was unclear. Skip calls south of MK on one of the Euston to Birmingham LNR that calls a Watford then MK onwards

No, don't skip it. The purpose of those trains is to serve those stations. If you want a fast service, cough up and use VT.

We must not turn this into another Ringway-style "tail wagging dog" situation. The issues with the timetable are heading that way already.

LNR is primarily a south WCML commuter service, and the needs of the south WCML commuters have to take overall precedence. It would be better to lop the lot at Northampton and do away with the through service entirely than in any way muck with the commuter operation.

People getting price-dumped cheap Advances and Super Off Peaks cannot take precedence over people getting to work and home reliably, nor over Trent Valley passengers who have no VT service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd still have to avoid terminating at Birmingham New Street to work with the new paths. There's Wolverhampton or Birmingham International. Not sure how full Wolverhampton is, can't imagine there's be huge space in there for terminators? If you terminated the Rugeley at Walsall presumably you'd need to run another local down the chase line to replace it and that would need another unit and Crew and space at New Street.

I suspect it could be made to vaguely work as-is if you slackened the crew diagrams such that no crew ever go straight from unit to unit at any station, nor ever go unit->PNB->unit without there being additional slack over and above the PNB. Going to cost them, though. Forgive me if I don't shed any tears if this means they lose money on the franchise, though, as they need punishing for this piece of entirely foreseeable incompetence.

From experience units are far less of an issue than crews - very often the unit is there but nobody to staff it.

 

[pt_mad]

I suspect it could be made to vaguely work as-is if you slackened the crew diagrams such that no crew ever go straight from unit to unit at any station, nor ever go unit->PNB->unit without there being additional slack over and above the PNB. Going to cost them, though. Forgive me if I don't shed any tears if this means they lose money on the franchise, though, as they need punishing for this piece of entirely foreseeable incompetence.

From experience units are far less of an issue than crews - very often the unit is there but nobody to staff it.

You'd need more paths through New Street though to run a Chase Line local as well as the existing ex Euston services if that was anybody's plan.

If it's that the New St bay platforms are now occupied by the increased Shrewsbury and Hereford services then those are out of the equation and terminating the train from Liverpool at New St is probably no longer an option other than Sundays.

If the unit split and join itself works well there's no reason why it's need changing. If it didn't perhaps there'd be sense in the Liverpool going straight through but then you might need 8 cars to work all the way to Liverpool. Would that be wasted capacity North of Wolverhampton?

Do most of the long distance train operators run all the way from A to B with the same train Crew, and with the Crew working the same route back to A? Or do most of the intercity operators have a Crew change in between on routes say of 150 miles? Would the crew maybe change twice?

It'd be interesting to know which is the most reliable method of crewing a 150 mile route nationally. Whether it's keeping the crew all the way and back, or changing once halfway, or twice, or the same crew going onto another route and rejoining the main route again later?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do most of the long distance train operators run all the way from A to B with the same train Crew, and with the Crew working the same route back to A? Or do most of the intercity operators have a Crew change in between on routes say of 150 miles? Would the crew maybe change twice?

With VTWC it appears to be the case that for the very long runs they change crew at Preston, but for the shorter ones it's the same crew throughout. The via Birmingham services may also change crews at New St, I'm not sure. This seems to work well enough.

I doubt, however, that this involves a service to Scotland and from it arriving at Preston at the same time and the crew swapping between them. It seems like the LNR situation is really not far off that.

 

[pt_mad]

I suppose logically you can't have a journey of nearly 4 hours or whatever and expect the same Crew to work it all. So the Liverpool Euston stopper is bound to need a crew change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose logically you can't have a journey of nearly 4 hours or whatever and expect the same Crew to work it all. So the Liverpool Euston stopper is bound to need a crew change.

The key is ensuring there is enough slack in the crew diagrams. Better for them to be stood around waiting for the train to show up than them not there when the train is.

Fundamentally the issue isn't that they have done this, but rather that it has been done with not even nearly adequate resources.

 

[87015]

The key is ensuring there is enough slack in the crew diagrams. Better for them to be stood around waiting for the train to show up than them not there when the train is.

I believe there is a T&C that stops them working across New St anyway. Hence at least one guard is booked
Euston-Cov work (or Northampton, the detail has left my head)
Cov-New St PASS
New St-Crewe work
All on the same train. So two entirely pointless relieves that only add complication.

You’ll never get slack diagrams on a revenue raid timetable. No one needs a service from Berko to Bloxwich except bid team spreadsheeters.

 

[Tuppenny Tube]

LNR is primarily a south WCML commuter service, and the needs of the south WCML commuters have to take overall precedence. It would be better to lop the lot at Northampton and do away with the through service entirely than in any way muck with the commuter operation.

I'm sure that that view depends on where you live; LNR provide the only service to many local stations such as Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford & Acton Bridge and it is the major provider on Birmingham-Crewe-Liverpool corridor. I'm sure that users of those stations would argue that their needs are just as important as those in southern commuter land and your statement just adds to the North/South divide debate.
I can't argue with splitting the through services at Northampton though, the current timetable is trying to be a commuter service; a local service & a long-distance service all in one and it is now failing in every way.

To highlight that the situation is as bad 'up north' as it is south of Birmingham, some friends travelled to Liverpool last Saturday and were unable to return from Lime Street as all LNR departures from there were cancelled after about 1500. They were initially told to go to Liverpool South Parkway, for connecting services, but on arrival there found no such connection. Staff there told them to return to Lime Street, from where they were then told to get a train to Manchester Piccadilly where they could get connections for Birmingham.
Their view, now, is that our railway is a complete joke & it is difficult to disagree with that assumption.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure that that view depends on where you live; LNR provide the only service to many local stations such as Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford & Acton Bridge and it is the major provider on Birmingham-Crewe-Liverpool corridor. I'm sure that users of those stations would argue that their needs are just as important as those in southern commuter land and your statement just adds to the North/South divide debate.

OK, to be fair to you that is also true.

But what is not their primary role is carrying passengers between places north of Rugby and London Euston, nor from places south of Northampton and Liverpool/Rugeley. In essence, a service wholly split at New St completely fulfils their main purpose, and the through services are nothing but a revenue grab. If they neither caused overcrowding nor caused reliability problems that's just making money out of spare capacity, but when it damages the core market's services it is unacceptable.

 

[pt_mad]

OK, to be fair to you that is also true.

But what is not their primary role is carrying passengers between places north of Rugby and London Euston, nor from places south of Northampton and Liverpool/Rugeley. In essence, a service wholly split at New St completely fulfils their main purpose, and the through services are nothing but a revenue grab. If they neither caused overcrowding nor caused reliability problems that's just making money out of spare capacity, but when it damages the core market's services it is unacceptable.

The benefit of running a through service being that Coventry, the Airport and that corridor is linked with the north west. And that Penkridge and Hartford and Winsford are linked with London. Also Walsall, although it's debatable whether a handful of daily services would have ticked that box or whether an hourly was better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The benefit of running a through service being that Coventry, the Airport and that corridor is linked with the north west. And the Pekridge and Hartford and Winsford are linked with London. Also Walsall, although it's debatable whether a handful of daily services would have ticked that box or whether an hourly was better.

I'm not saying there is no benefit of it - if it worked I'd be fine with it. But it should not be done at the expense of the core market.

 

[RailWonderer]

Everyone wants the best for their station, so bletchleyite, it’s obvious where your interests are. I would like to ‘cough up’ for VT more often but since I use the Northampton loop I can’t. For such people, and for northerners, the service suffers because the only trains for these people are delayed and cancelled too often because a nearly all-stations service from Liverpool has to work faultlessly.
A previous poster said LNR are trying to be an all purpose commuter, local, long distance and failing all three.
Segregate the service again, if less Brum terminators are needed as per DfT (I think) prompt then one can go to walsall and that’s it. A minor evolution is better than a major revolution.
Bletchleyite don’t worry, no one is touching your south WCML commuter service.

 

[pt_mad]

Everyone wants the best for their station, so bletchleyite, it’s obvious where your interests are. I would like to ‘cough up’ for VT more often but since I use the Northampton loop I can’t. For such people, and for northerners, the service suffers because the only trains for these people are delayed and cancelled too often because a nearly all-stations service from Liverpool has to work faultlessly.
A previous poster said LNR are trying to be an all purpose commuter, local, long distance and failing all three.
Segregate the service again, if less Brum terminators are needed as per DfT (I think) prompt then one can go to walsall and that’s it. A minor evolution is better than a major revolution.
Bletchleyite don’t worry, no one is touching your south WCML commuter service.

Are you sure just running one through to Walsall would leave enough space and time at New St to terminate everything else there again? What if the spaces at New St where trains could terminate are now gone? I.e. the Herefords and Shrewsbury's and others are in them now and the cross city services?

 

[700007]

I believe I made this recommendation earlier, but I honestly think splitting it again would solve a lot of matters and also make the diagrams self contained.

• 2tph Birmingham International to Liverpool Lime Street
• 2tph London Euston to Tring
• 1tph London Euston to Milton Keynes Central
• 1tph London Euston to Walsall via Northampton and Birmingham New Street
• 2tph London Euston to Wolverhampton via Northampton and Birmingham New Street
• 2tph Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley
• 1tph Birmingham New Street to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent
• 1tph London Euston to Crewe

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see that making sense, though it might require a few extra units (319s?) and crews due to the Wolves overlap.

 

[sd0733]

I can see that making sense, though it might require a few extra units (319s?) and crews due to the Wolves overlap.

It shouldn't as if they were sensible the Wolves-Walsall circuits could be eliminated or at least halved with your Walsall-Euston being the stopper and the same from Wolves. That's how I would do it anyway, cant be worse than now

 

[DavidGrain]

I believe I made this recommendation earlier, but I honestly think splitting it again would solve a lot of matters and also make the diagrams self contained.

• 2tph Birmingham International to Liverpool Lime Street
• 2tph London Euston to Tring
• 1tph London Euston to Milton Keynes Central
• 1tph London Euston to Walsall via Northampton and Birmingham New Street
• 2tph London Euston to Wolverhampton via Northampton and Birmingham New Street
• 2tph Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley
• 1tph Birmingham New Street to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent
• 1tph London Euston to Crewe

Have you thought this through on the Stour Valley Line?

2tph Birmingham International to Liverpool Lime Street
1tph London Euston to Walsall via Northampton and Birmingham New Street (unless it reverses in New Street)
2tph London Euston to Wolverhampton via Northampton and Birmingham New Street
2tph Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley (Unless they reverse in New Street)
1tph Birmingham New Street to Crewe via Stoke-on-Trent
2tph Cross Country to Manchester
1tph Virgin to Wolverhampton and further north
1tph Transport for Wales
2tph Birmingham to Shrewsbury
2tph Walsall Birmingham Wolverhampton

You also have to consider stopping patterns as 2tph are all stations. I have included trains to Rugeley as they usually take the Soho Loop and when they do they need to cross the Up Line. London to Walsall would require either a reverse in New Street or the Soho Loop.
Good job they have replaced the Tipton level crossing with an underpass

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you thought this through on the Stour Valley Line?

I'd have thought there would be one spare path since VT stopped overlapping their services - or has something else now taken that - the second Shrewsbury?

 

[DarloRich]

Bletchleyite don’t worry, no one is touching your south WCML commuter service.

but they are. Our service has become a lot less punctual. The delays are not often huge but they are, anecdotally, more common than previously.