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London Bridge reconstruction works
- Thread starter acepepper
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Wow. No wonder congestion is used to describe delays. How do you explain those on a departure board or spoken announcement?it must be fun trying to work out who owes what in circumstances like this. I mean which rail company owes network rail and visa versa.
87015
Established Member
Why are PNBs (which I believe SN have cut back to the bone on tightness) and crews swapping units even in the plan for London Bridge in the peak? That's asking for inherent unreliability and is just daft when platform occupancy is so key. There are good reasons other operates take them out of the peak at core locations, why haven't Southern - how many years have they known all this was coming to slowly migrate diagrams?
Stew998
Member
Well I didn't make it to LB yesterday as my train was terminated at East Croydon on the way in and I made my way to work via Victoria and the tube.
Options to return to Sussex from LB in the evening are now limited thanks to Thameslink diversions so I returned via Blackfriars.
This morning we made it into one of the new terminal platforms at LB and whilst the platform was wide and light it was as draughty as I had expected and seems unlikely to offer much protection from the elements thanks to its upside down roof design - a genius stroke of style over function :roll:
Strange layout of ticket lines - temporary I hope, not much sign of the huge concourse so far.
Have yet to experience evening rush hour...
Options to return to Sussex from LB in the evening are now limited thanks to Thameslink diversions so I returned via Blackfriars.
This morning we made it into one of the new terminal platforms at LB and whilst the platform was wide and light it was as draughty as I had expected and seems unlikely to offer much protection from the elements thanks to its upside down roof design - a genius stroke of style over function :roll:
Strange layout of ticket lines - temporary I hope, not much sign of the huge concourse so far.
Have yet to experience evening rush hour...
pne
Member
You seem to be assuming that the only reason people dont already do so is because they simply prefer taking the train.
If the choice is Live far away from work, pay £SOME for house, £LOTS for train, and have money left over for food and clothes live close to work, pay £MUCHTOOMUCH for house, nothing for train, but have no money for food or clothes work close to home, pay £SOME for house, earn £NOTMUCH from work, have no money for food and clothes since it all goes towards the mortage, what would you pick? As for me, I rather enjoy eating occasionally.
In other words, many people cant afford houses that are close to well-paying jobs, and well-paying jobs dont simply materialise close to affordable houses just because people would rather not spend two hours a day in sardine tins.
Terrible, terrible this evening. Trying to get to Forest Hill. 1806 and 1836 cancelled. Decided to wait for 1821 which was finally advertised at 1844. Once on board announced fast to Crystal Palace. Got to Crystal Palace to find a Southern tipping out as just announced fast to London Bridge. Only consolation while waiting at Crystal Palace at 1913 was that both the 1853 and 1906 still hadn't left London Bridge so I had still made the correct decision.
Was it the correct decision or would Jubilee Line to Canada Water then Overground be the way. If this sort of thing is going to happen, where four consecutive trains are cancelled/run nonstop (which is effectively abandoning the service), then a big load is going to transfer to the TfL services. Do Southern still get the same share of ticket revenue based on historic surveys - wonder if that is what was being hoped for.
You can of course go from Victoria instead - no, that's all being rebuilt as well at the same time, with lots of queues to even get in the Underground. Wonder who planned to do big works at both the Southern termini simultaneously.
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According to reports from local commuters in Forest Hill, the LO services during the peak were struggling with both the West Croydon and Crystal Palace services packed, presumably with Southern commuters who decided not to use London Bridge.
Yes in hindsight it was however the National Rail message advising tickets were being accepted on buses and underground wasn't published until after I got there but interestingly omitted Overground (presumably a mistake).
Not really sure what happened at London Bridge this evening. When I got there at 5.45 it all seemed to be under control. I guessed what platform the uckfield train was going from, which as it was only 4 cars had to be done, and went to Platform 12.
It then seemed to all go wrong with no trains moving, and we left around 20 minutes late. Congestion outside the station was being blamed.
No idea what was happening on the concourse, know on the train it was awful!
It then seemed to all go wrong with no trains moving, and we left around 20 minutes late. Congestion outside the station was being blamed.
No idea what was happening on the concourse, know on the train it was awful!
Just off the back of my third consecutive 15 hour day with not much sleep in between. A personal sorry from me to anyone affected.
There will be additional screens above the other half of the barrier line in a few days, work starts tonight. This will definitely help.
Notwithstanding the pictures on twitter, half the concourse was empty throughout the evening peak tonight. Indeed at the very height of the peak, it was possible to walk from the entrance, across the concourse, through the barriers, to and along platforms with trains loading, without breaking step. You did have to use the left side barriers though.
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I watched that go, absolutely full to the gunwales. The train really struggled to get away, hardly surprising with about 15 tonnes of passengers on each coach. I presume that is normally 6 or 8?
There will be additional screens above the other half of the barrier line in a few days, work starts tonight. This will definitely help.
Notwithstanding the pictures on twitter, half the concourse was empty throughout the evening peak tonight. Indeed at the very height of the peak, it was possible to walk from the entrance, across the concourse, through the barriers, to and along platforms with trains loading, without breaking step. You did have to use the left side barriers though.
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I watched that go, absolutely full to the gunwales. The train really struggled to get away, hardly surprising with about 15 tonnes of passengers on each coach. I presume that is normally 6 or 8?
Thanks for the update, I noticed this as well just stay left and go through the barriers that they have not moved.
Hopefully the additional screens will help and it does seem they will solve the issue.
I don't see the screens being the issue. If trains weren't being cancelled and the following one not advertised until 20 minutes after due departure time you wouldn't have hordes queuing for information. Sort the train service out (which face it has been between floor and god awful since August) and the hordes will dissipate.
Well I didn't make it to LB yesterday as my train was terminated at East Croydon on the way in and I made my way to work via Victoria and the tube.
Options to return to Sussex from LB in the evening are now limited thanks to Thameslink diversions so I returned via Blackfriars.
This morning we made it into one of the new terminal platforms at LB and whilst the platform was wide and light it was as draughty as I had expected and seems unlikely to offer much protection from the elements thanks to its upside down roof design - a genius stroke of style over function :roll:
Strange layout of ticket lines - temporary I hope, not much sign of the huge concourse so far.
Have yet to experience evening rush hour...
the huge concourse will be underneath
Can you please cancel the new screens please? Its been very handy on the last two evenings being able to walk straight down the left hand side of the station to get to barriers and platforms!
I think as someone else has said once passengers get used to where there trains are going from the crowds on the concourse will ease, but I dread to think what will happen when there is an infrastructure failure outside the station.
Yes the Uckfield train is usually 8 carriages and is full and standing. In fact its usually full with no seats about 30 seconds after it arrives in London Bridge, so having it as a 4 really doesnt work. Anyway the real fun happened when we got to East Croydon. A couple of passengers got off as they were by the doors to allow others off. Then in the crush of passengers getting on at East Croydon they couldnt get back on! As you might expect they werent happy and were blocking the doors for some time!
It was standing room only the whole way to Crowborough, left passengers who wanted to be on it at London Bridge, East Croydon and Oxted.
Deepgreen
Established Member
The extra screens will almost certainly help, but the question is, why wasn't the need for them foreseen before the layout was implemented? As an ex-professional station planner I would have started with the a full coverage of screens on the concourse.
Anyway, you obviously have had a rough time of it this week, so thanks for your efforts.
Posted on Southern website:
"Network Rail and Southern apologise to you for the unacceptable disruption and delays at London Bridge this week resulting in severe overcrowding on the concourse. This is not the level of service that you deserve, expect or that we want to deliver.
Over the festive break Network Rail undertook 16 days of work rebuilding two new platforms, removing and replacing 3km of track and installing new signalling into London Bridge. This work was completed on time.
However, the new timetable has proved challenging to manage so we have reviewed this and made some immediate changes to a small number of evening peak services which will reduce the pressure on the infrastructure and help us to deliver an improved service.
The following services from London Bridge will not run this evening, or for the remainder of this week:
16.36 London Bridge to West Croydon
17.06 London Bridge to West Croydon
17.38 London Bridge to West Croydon
18.06 London Bridge to West Croydon
18.36 London Bridge to West Croydon
We apologise, this was not an easy decision but we needed to act quickly and passengers using the above services do have reasonable alternatives.
Passengers requiring Anerley and Penge West should take a Southern service to New Cross Gate and change for London Overground services.
We will monitor the service for the remainder of this week and assess if any longer term changes are required.
As a result of the above changes, three services into London Bridge are also withdrawn:
17.12 West Croydon to London Bridge
18.13 West Croydon to London Bridge
17.42 West Croydon to London Bridge
We have reviewed with Network Rail, the operation of the station concourse, placed more staff at London Bridge, and implemented additional crowd control measures to separate passengers entering and exiting trains. By the end of the week, we will have additional passenger information screens, so the concourse is used more evenly."
"Network Rail and Southern apologise to you for the unacceptable disruption and delays at London Bridge this week resulting in severe overcrowding on the concourse. This is not the level of service that you deserve, expect or that we want to deliver.
Over the festive break Network Rail undertook 16 days of work rebuilding two new platforms, removing and replacing 3km of track and installing new signalling into London Bridge. This work was completed on time.
However, the new timetable has proved challenging to manage so we have reviewed this and made some immediate changes to a small number of evening peak services which will reduce the pressure on the infrastructure and help us to deliver an improved service.
The following services from London Bridge will not run this evening, or for the remainder of this week:
16.36 London Bridge to West Croydon
17.06 London Bridge to West Croydon
17.38 London Bridge to West Croydon
18.06 London Bridge to West Croydon
18.36 London Bridge to West Croydon
We apologise, this was not an easy decision but we needed to act quickly and passengers using the above services do have reasonable alternatives.
Passengers requiring Anerley and Penge West should take a Southern service to New Cross Gate and change for London Overground services.
We will monitor the service for the remainder of this week and assess if any longer term changes are required.
As a result of the above changes, three services into London Bridge are also withdrawn:
17.12 West Croydon to London Bridge
18.13 West Croydon to London Bridge
17.42 West Croydon to London Bridge
We have reviewed with Network Rail, the operation of the station concourse, placed more staff at London Bridge, and implemented additional crowd control measures to separate passengers entering and exiting trains. By the end of the week, we will have additional passenger information screens, so the concourse is used more evenly."
Indeed. Someone at the DfT needs to tell them quickly that these services are to reported as cancellations (which they are) for PPM and not a planned timetable change. I would have thought that cancelling the entire peak hour service (London Bridge to West Croydon) was a breach of their franchise.
Southern were trying to operate 24tph through infrastructure only designed for 22tph so it would be hard for NR/DfT/ORR to argue that cancellations should count towards PPM.
thedbdiboy
Member
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- 10 Sep 2011
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This is why the combined Southern/Thameslink/GN franchise is a management contract - the revenue risk actually sits with the DfT because trying to manage/forecast/earn a commercial return through the works is well nigh impossible.
In short, it was thought by the planners (after much discussion and modelling I might add) that having the screens on the other half would block the exits to the escalators, meaning they would have to be closed every evening.
Anyway, the change to the train service and a temporary screen has led to tonight being a breeze. What isn't known is how many people took other routes tonight.
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No, they are not operated in the peak.
Plenty of my colleagues took other routes or did something after work to wait till it quietened down so definitely a factor.
The frequent manual announcements really seemed to help too. Useful in ways that automated ones could never be.
Getting more like normal.
The dilemma Southern have got is that it is rapidly becoming a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.
For example, the congestion problems. It doesn't take a genius to work out that there are too many trains operating in and out of London Bridge at the moment.
One way of resolving this, is to cancel some trains preferably ones which offer many alternatives anyway. If southern do this, they get massive problems from the same amount of commuters boarding a reduced amount of trains; not mentioning negative press coverage from both within and outside the rail industry.
Or they could not cancel any services and have massive congestion with major knock on delays continuing on some lines (e.g. uckfield) until pretty much the end of service.
Of course, some trains could terminate at East Croydon or Norwood junction but then you'll have more passengers travelling on already congested and delayed trains trying to reach these stations. Not to mention missed connections and limited platform capacity.
The list goes on...
Many are beginning to suggest an easier way would be just to close London Bridge completely. That shows you how mad this situation is getting. If this is not sorted out, it is fast becoming a crisis for the rail industry, particularly Southern and network rail, who both could be to blame for the problems in the first place.
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