London Bridge reconstruction works

[87015]

Better, but not much left right time after 1730 again...

Running much of what is left of the Sydenham corridor stoppers fast again despite half the service being "planned" cancelled - are these passengers now just being forced off Southern UFN?

 

[fusionblue]

Monday - when SET joins in the fun - is going to make this even more entertaining (for all the wrong reasons) at Waterloo East.

 

[FOH]

This all stems from the madness of reducing a prime London terminus from 9 to 6 platforms all so the Brighton lot can swoosh by in 2018.
I'm amazed at the timetable that they're splitting and joining trains at London Bridge in the peaks. Surely asking for trouble.

 

[bicbasher]

A controversial idea. How about terminating all of the Peckham Rye services at South Bermondsey during the peaks? This would allow the signalers to concentrate on running via the Sydenham corridor for the revenue making mainline services and the stoppers via Forest Hill.

It would mean LOROL's Clapham Junction services taking the strain, yet I doubt it won't be as bad as cramming those Sydenham corridor Southern passengers onto already crowded ELL services from West Croydon and Crystal Palace.

 

[physics34]

The list goes on...

Many are beginning to suggest an easier way would be just to close London Bridge completely. That shows you how mad this situation is getting. If this is not sorted out, it is fast becoming a crisis for the rail industry, particularly Southern and network rail, who both could be to blame for the problems in the first place.

It is looking like a better choice WOULDVE been to just close LBG for a year and do all the work at once, than have this chaos.

Use Blackfriars more (like they did during a blockade in AUgust), when several East Grinstead to LBG services were diverted to Blackfriars. A few days route learning would be needed though for drivers/guards.

 

[Bald Rick]

This all stems from the madness of reducing a prime London terminus from 9 to 6 platforms all so the Brighton lot can swoosh by in 2018.
I'm amazed at the timetable that they're splitting and joining trains at London Bridge in the peaks. Surely asking for trouble.

I do need to point out that the terminus side has been 6 platforms since May 2013, and the service operated quite happily until September this year when the layout changed.

Given that Charing X easily deals with 29 trains per hour with six platforms, you can see it is not platform capacity that is the issue, but the approach lines. And it is getting better day by day as everyone gets used to it.

 

[physics34]

A controversial idea. How about terminating all of the Peckham Rye services at South Bermondsey during the peaks? This would allow the signalers to concentrate on running via the Sydenham corridor for the revenue making mainline services and the stoppers via Forest Hill.

It would mean LOROL's Clapham Junction services taking the strain, yet I doubt it won't be as bad as cramming those Sydenham corridor Southern passengers onto already crowded ELL services from West Croydon and Crystal Palace.

Wimbledon, Beckenham and West Croydon UP services in the morning peak are crammed though, there is no way these people would all fit on Overground services to Canada Water etc etc.

 

[Bishopstone]

Given the political clout of London, I wonder whether beyond this week, the dropped trains miraculously change to Sussex services.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I suspect what is more likely is that the chopped trains will be reinstated next week. I think it was earlier in this thread where it was mentioned that drivers would be still be learning the layout for the first few days of operation and therefore driving more cautiously. Having said that the lines over towards South Bermondsey appear to have temporary speed restrictions, and presumably this is not helping either.

As Sam said earlier Southern and Network Rail where damned if the did and didn't. They are running a lot more services than originally anticipated but it appears the services should have been phased in.

Should we really be criticising them for trying to run the maximum number of trains?

 

[sarahj]

Some of the drivers have said that what they saw on the ground was a bit different to what was noted in the briefing. There are more TPWS grids than expected as well. So when its their first time in and out they are taking it easy. After all sitting in a classroom looking at some slides of what it 'should' look like and looking at track diagrams is one thing. Driving it is another. Of course the big issue is that once was 5 plus approach lines, there are now 3.

On another note, the new tracks look poorly profiled. The shiny bit on the track is tiny. This might settle down over time, but just looks poor.

 

[bicbasher]

Given the political clout of London, I wonder whether beyond this week, the dropped trains miraculously change to Sussex services.

I doubt it, Kent Tory MP's put a stop to TfL's taking over of Southeastern metro services. Sussex and Surrey commuters also pay a lot more for their tickets than Londoners.

 

[FOH]

I do need to point out that the terminus side has been 6 platforms since May 2013, and the service operated quite happily until September this year when the layout changed.

Given that Charing X easily deals with 29 trains per hour with six platforms, you can see it is not platform capacity that is the issue, but the approach lines. And it is getting better day by day as everyone gets used to it.

I would agree it was far better than before August (the pits since then) but obvious now it was on a knife edge where failures occurred.

Is it common to split or join at Charing X? Not having a go as I rarely use it but in the times I have I don't recall ever seeing it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would agree it was far better than before August (the pits since then) but obvious now it was on a knife edge where failures occurred.

Is it common to split or join at Charing X? Not having a go as I rarely use it but in the times I have I don't recall ever seeing it.

Not so much CHX, but Cannon St (25 tph, 3 approach lines) yes. Until Monday.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On another note, the new tracks look poorly profiled. The shiny bit on the track is tiny. This might settle down over time, but just looks poor.

That's just new rail, and is actually how it should be. The reason it is a narrow strip is because it has been installed so well, the wheel sets aren't hunting around the rail polishing a wider strip. Yes really.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is looking like a better choice WOULDVE been to just close LBG for a year and do all the work at once, than have this chaos.

Use Blackfriars more (like they did during a blockade in AUgust), when several East Grinstead to LBG services were diverted to Blackfriars. A few days route learning would be needed though for drivers/guards.

1) complete closure would have taken at least 2 years, probably longer. And I don't think the 400,000 people who use or pass through London Bridge each day would have liked that much compared to 4 1/2 years of some weekend disruption, and 6 longer possessions involving working days (2 of which are now done).

2) no capacity into Blackfriars now that all the paths across Herne Hill are used by the Thameslink diverted trains. Besides, a few days route learning for each of 700 drivers soon turns into lots of cancellations due to no drivers, as Southern found out very painfully last month.

 

[fusionblue]

2) no capacity into Blackfriars now that all the paths across Herne Hill are used by the Thameslink diverted trains. Besides, a few days route learning for each of 700 drivers soon turns into lots of cancellations due to no drivers, as Southern found out very painfully last month.

It's not like it was known for many years that more services was going to be sent via Elephant. To do absolutely no upgrade work there (at the station itself or the throat up to it, especially being the first station northbound from Croydon/Sevenoaks/Wimbledon Loop or with a tube line) makes it look really poorly thought out over on that stretch.

 

[infobleep]

Southern were trying to operate 24tph through infrastructure only designed for 22tph so it would be hard for NR/DfT/ORR to argue that cancellations should count towards PPM.

Well if the infrastructure was only designed for 22tph, why did they out 24tph through? Surely it would be 18tph. Trains through Clapham Junction on the main fast line towards Waterloo can in theory handle 24tph but they don't run 26tph, no just 22tph because they know problems can occur.

 

[physics34]

1) complete closure would have taken at least 2 years, probably longer. And I don't think the 400,000 people who use or pass through London Bridge each day would have liked that much compared to 4 1/2 years of some weekend disruption, and 6 longer possessions involving working days (2 of which are now done).

2) no capacity into Blackfriars now that all the paths across Herne Hill are used by the Thameslink diverted trains. Besides, a few days route learning for each of 700 drivers soon turns into lots of cancellations due to no drivers, as Southern found out very painfully last month.

We really are in a pickle then and there really are not any other alternatives.

 

[Bald Rick]

We really are in a pickle then and there really are not any other alternatives.

Welcome to my world!

 

[Abpj17]

On closure for year (or two) as one of the commuters during the long long months that the Thameslink Core was closed - you really don't want that; it was awful. There simply isn't the slack in the system to cope.

 

[physics34]

We can't have 3 years of this though!

 

[SF-02]

I doubt it, Kent Tory MP's put a stop to TfL's taking over of Southeastern metro services. Sussex and Surrey commuters also pay a lot more for their tickets than Londoners.

Is it correct that SE metro services get bigger cuts than long distance journeys? Looking on the SE website at changes next week and I saw what looked like additional fast journeys to Hastings and trains to Sheerness around the peaks. Can't check right now but possibly some others (not the HS1 services). With metro cuts it looked like long distance doing much better?

Bah, whatever happened all trains on both Southern & Sutheastern should be the maximum possible length that lines allow in the peak which isn't happening.

 

[Evvy73]

Considering there are revised and Emergency timetables in place, could they not have thought about arranging for the Gat Express services in the peak to stop additionally at Clapham Junction to give people the opportunity of going via Waterloo?

My train yesterday morning (07:08 WVF-LBG) was 7 carriages instead of 12, so unsurprisingly "full and standing" by the time it arrived at Wivelsfield.
I elected to leave it and catch the 07:13 GatEx to Victoria. This train was (as usual) more than half empty. I didn't even have anyone sit beside me until we stopped at Gatwick!
The tube was packed out on arrival at Victoria with queues back onto the main station concourse so I opted for a nice 3 mile stroll to my Office!

However, if we had stopped at Clapham Junction, I could have hopped onto a Waterloo service for the last 10 minutes of the journey and then had a more reasonable walk. I am sure if this option was available many Brighton Line Commuters would take it.
I know there are some trains that already call at CLJ on the BML, but there are a fair few that don't!
Surely giving more options would help to ease congestion?

 

[GodAtum]

Considering there are revised and Emergency timetables in place, could they not have thought about arranging for the Gat Express services in the peak to stop additionally at Clapham Junction to give people the opportunity of going via Waterloo?

My train yesterday morning (07:08 WVF-LBG) was 7 carriages instead of 12, so unsurprisingly "full and standing" by the time it arrived at Wivelsfield.
I elected to leave it and catch the 07:13 GatEx to Victoria. This train was (as usual) more than half empty. I didn't even have anyone sit beside me until we stopped at Gatwick!
The tube was packed out on arrival at Gatwick with queues back onto the main station concourse so I opted for a nice 3 mile stroll to my Office!

However, if we had stopped at Clapham Junction, I could have hopped onto a Waterloo service for the last 10 minutes of the journey and then had a more reasonable walk. I am sure if this option was available many Brighton Line Commuters would take it.
I know there are some trains that already call at CLJ on the BML, but there are a fair few that don't!
Surely giving more options would help to ease congestion?

I wont raise your hopes of being able to get on at clapham for waterloo anyway.

 

[Evvy73]

Ah, fair enough!

I just thought it would have been an option as we sailed through yesterday.

 

[hwl]

Considering there are revised and Emergency timetables in place, could they not have thought about arranging for the Gat Express services in the peak to stop additionally at Clapham Junction to give people the opportunity of going via Waterloo?

My train yesterday morning (07:08 WVF-LBG) was 7 carriages instead of 12, so unsurprisingly "full and standing" by the time it arrived at Wivelsfield.
I elected to leave it and catch the 07:13 GatEx to Victoria. This train was (as usual) more than half empty. I didn't even have anyone sit beside me until we stopped at Gatwick!
The tube was packed out on arrival at Gatwick with queues back onto the main station concourse so I opted for a nice 3 mile stroll to my Office!

However, if we had stopped at Clapham Junction, I could have hopped onto a Waterloo service for the last 10 minutes of the journey and then had a more reasonable walk. I am sure if this option was available many Brighton Line Commuters would take it.
I know there are some trains that already call at CLJ on the BML, but there are a fair few that don't!
Surely giving more options would help to ease congestion?

Not all fast line BML services can shop at Clapham Junction due to limited platform capacity.

As other have noted it could take you several attempts before you can get on a train to Waterloo at CLJ in the morning.

Waterloo was carnage yesterday morning when SE Service from Waterloo East were suspended fora while shortly followed by the tube being overloaded.

Display Boards:

8 (additional) boards now back in old location on the Concourse
1 General + clock
1 Scrolling page departure list
6 traditional boards for full info on individual services.

&

2 portable boards with departure lists near the top of the escalators.

 

[Minstral25]

We can't have 3 years of this though!

No - it's 4 years virtually (Jan 15 to Dec 18) although one hopes infrastructure will be put back at earlier dates to enable better resilience than currently and better timetabling.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Changing at Clapham Junction would be fine if possible. What is possibly Redhill Route specific is because of the cuts a lot of commuters are going to Victoria instead of London Bridge (as there is massive cuts in service in AM peak - i.e. High Peak 3 out of 4 services cut or diverted)

The problem is the half-hourly Redhill trains in the evening are only 8 coach and already had capacity problems. The last few nights they have all left Victoria totally full so no-one can get on at Clapham Junction.

Another sign of lack of thought put in at the planning phase

 

[hwl]

No - it's 4 years virtually (Jan 15 to Dec 18) although one hopes infrastructure will be put back at earlier dates to enable better resilience than currently and better timetabling.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Changing at Clapham Junction would be fine if possible. What is possibly Redhill Route specific is because of the cuts a lot of commuters are going to Victoria instead of London Bridge (as there is massive cuts in service in AM peak - i.e. High Peak 3 out of 4 services cut or diverted)

The problem is the half-hourly Redhill trains in the evening are only 8 coach and already had capacity problems. The last few nights they have all left Victoria totally full so no-one can get on at Clapham Junction.

Another sign of lack of thought put in at the planning phase

The (slow) down line from terminating platforms through the Bermondsey diveunder to Bricklayers Arms Junction should be available for use from the Easter 2017 blockade which should help the "congestion" issues. And the concourse under the Terminating and Charing Cross platforms from August 2016 should help with the passenger flow.
So just over a year and a half till things start to improve.

 

[TimG]

What about scrapping or reducing the mainline services and replacing with a more limited shuttle LBG - ECR - GTW, with all the seats removed?

 

[Tangent]

On closure for year (or two) as one of the commuters during the long long months that the Thameslink Core was closed - you really don't want that; it was awful. There simply isn't the slack in the system to cope.

I would rather not think about how Victoria would cope in a situation where London Bridge would be permanently closed. There would be a significant risk of fatalities from a crush every single weekday.

 

[Bishopstone]

The secret in changing at Clapham Junction during the am peak is to walk down to the 'Reading' platforms, where I very rarely fail to board the first available train. Go for coach 8 and you sometimes get a seat at Vauxhall, too.

 

[infobleep]

Considering there are revised and Emergency timetables in place, could they not have thought about arranging for the Gat Express services in the peak to stop additionally at Clapham Junction to give people the opportunity of going via Waterloo?

My train yesterday morning (07:08 WVF-LBG) was 7 carriages instead of 12, so unsurprisingly "full and standing" by the time it arrived at Wivelsfield.
I elected to leave it and catch the 07:13 GatEx to Victoria. This train was (as usual) more than half empty. I didn't even have anyone sit beside me until we stopped at Gatwick!
The tube was packed out on arrival at Gatwick with queues back onto the main station concourse so I opted for a nice 3 mile stroll to my Office!

However, if we had stopped at Clapham Junction, I could have hopped onto a Waterloo service for the last 10 minutes of the journey and then had a more reasonable walk. I am sure if this option was available many Brighton Line Commuters would take it.
I know there are some trains that already call at CLJ on the BML, but there are a fair few that don't!
Surely giving more options would help to ease congestion?

Welcome to the world of passengers on the South West Trains mainline who never get to change at Clapham Junction when heading towards Waterloo unless they get there before 7.30 or after 9.00. It's only for a year and a half that it will be like this for those going to London Bridge.

The secret in changing at Clapham Junction during the am peak is to walk down to the 'Reading' platforms, where I very rarely fail to board the first available train. Go for coach 8 and you sometimes get a seat at Vauxhall, too.

That's assume they board a train which stops at Clapham Junction.