London Bridge reconstruction works

[Bald Rick]

I'm not convinced they are though, even with dwell times slightly longer than say Farringdon, they still have eight an hour less than the TL core stations each way. In any case, even if CX trains used the TL lines through Borough Market they wouldn't need to use the TL platforms.

There are three tracks "reserved" for Charing X. The two nearest the southern lines would be the "fast" tracks and then the third would be effectively an up slow (in AM peak) with trains using platform 6 then crossing straight onto the TL lines through borough market and then onto the CX slows beyond borough market, staying unconflicting with the down and up charing cross fasts.

Similarly down trains in the evening peak from the Charing X slows would run onto the down TL at Borough Market and use either platform 3 or 4 before continuing along the down Thameslink or along one of the Cannon St lines enabing them to get to New Cross without any conflict with the Down Charing x fast.

Yes it is all conjecture, as we are talking many years hence but, the infrastructure will be there to do it and will be there for decades to come, and I think it will be too tempting a low hanging fruit to ignore.

Its certainly a very flexible layout though and a huge improvement on the '70s and '80s resignallings that took out a lot of capacity.

I'll try and explain one last time.

Morning peak - all trains off the 'slow' side of the SEML to CHX will be via Lewisham and down the Tanners Hill fly down, or on occasion, crossing on the flat at Parks Bridge. There won't be any trains on the slows London side of New Cross for CHX. There will also be 28 trains an hour coming out of Charing Cross, requiring full use of platforms 6 and 7 in the down direction. Even with a few ECS non stopping and squeezed through 7, it would be the height of bad planning to try and plan to run even one train 'contra flow' up through 6. It would take up at least 2, and probably 3 down paths. And then it has to slot perfectly in the middle of a 4 minute gap between up TL trains, and then 60 seconds later, perfectly into another 4 minute gap between the 14 down trains an hour on the Down Slow ex CHX that are heading to P6 and 7.

PM peak. The down train would have to fit perfectly into two exactly concurrent 4 minute gaps on both TL lines, and then somehow use Platform 3 which has 24tph heading the other way en route Cannon St to form the evening peak, or Platform 4 which could, maybe, squeeze up to find a spare path every 15 mins. (TL requires 90 sec dwell, 90 sec re occupation).

This project is spending a billion quid on flyovers, track and signalling to remove all these timetable constraints and prevent delays on TL contaminate SE and vice versa. It would be madness to unpick that core objective because it might be fun to play trains.

 

[21C101]

I'll try and explain one last time.

Morning peak - all trains off the 'slow' side of the SEML to CHX will be via Lewisham and down the Tanners Hill fly down, or on occasion, crossing on the flat at Parks Bridge. There won't be any trains on the slows London side of New Cross for CHX. There will also be 28 trains an hour coming out of Charing Cross, requiring full use of platforms 6 and 7 in the down direction. Even with a few ECS non stopping and squeezed through 7, it would be the height of bad planning to try and plan to run even one train 'contra flow' up through 6. It would take up at least 2, and probably 3 down paths. And then it has to slot perfectly in the middle of a 4 minute gap between up TL trains, and then 60 seconds later, perfectly into another 4 minute gap between the 14 down trains an hour on the Down Slow ex CHX that are heading to P6 and 7.

PM peak. The down train would have to fit perfectly into two exactly concurrent 4 minute gaps on both TL lines, and then somehow use Platform 3 which has 24tph heading the other way en route Cannon St to form the evening peak, or Platform 4 which could, maybe, squeeze up to find a spare path every 15 mins. (TL requires 90 sec dwell, 90 sec re occupation).

This project is spending a billion quid on flyovers, track and signalling to remove all these timetable constraints and prevent delays on TL contaminate SE and vice versa. It would be madness to unpick that core objective because it might be fun to play trains.

Yes it probably would, but thats never stopped things happening in the past

With hindsight that new viaduct through Borough Market ought to have had three tracks, but probably easier said than done.

 

[Bald Rick]

With hindsight that new viaduct through Borough Market ought to have had three tracks, but probably easier said than done.

News UK have already been complaining at high levels that the new viaduct (built 2012) when it opens will cause them much noise and disturbance to their adjacent offices (built 2013, occupied 2014). Suspect they would have been even more annoyed with a third track going through the sports desk.

 

[user15681]

News UK have already been complaining at high levels that the new viaduct (built 2012) when it opens will cause them much noise and disturbance to their adjacent offices (built 2013, occupied 2014). Suspect they would have been even more annoyed with a third track going through the sports desk.

Really? I wasn't aware of this. Absolutely ridiculous.. they knew the viaduct was there before they moved in!

P.s liked your explanation of the Met Jn to Blackfriars empties - or the Cannon Street 'back door'!

 

[21C101]

News UK have already been complaining at high levels that the new viaduct (built 2012) when it opens will cause them much noise and disturbance to their adjacent offices (built 2013, occupied 2014). Suspect they would have been even more annoyed with a third track going through the sports desk.

Well the viaduct was already there when they decided to up sticks to Baby Shard, so tough! perhaps they should ask their property team why it wasn't considered at the time by them (assuming it wasn't).

There was a time when I would have been worried that they would have friends in high places that could cause real trouble there, but they are something of a busted flush after becoming the story (rather than the writers of it) a couple of years back.

 

[Bald Rick]

Really? I wasn't aware of this. Absolutely ridiculous.. they knew the viaduct was there before they moved in!

P.s liked your explanation of the Met Jn to Blackfriars empties - or the Cannon Street 'back door'!

Thinking about it, it might have been the construction of the station approach viaduct. But following their lead, I chose not to let the facts get in the way of a good story

 

[Cletus]

With no Southeastern trains today through London Bridge to Cannon Street, Waterloo East & Charing Cross it was unusually quiet. Had the pleasure of a SE 375 from one of the new platforms non-stop to East Croydon.

 

[kentman]

For my morning commute Monday, persuadable the main work this weekend when CX,CS,LB high level is closed is mainly for the change of direction and relaying work to enable the two running CX lines on the northern 4 track viaduct? For 2 CS and 2 CX lines. Apart from any London Bridge work site work.

When does the middle 2 track CX viaduct close and track slue over to the northern one?

Somehow I think most if the issues are due to the construction of dive under rather than London Bridge itself.

 

[sarahj]

Are you sure News Int has moved in? When I was there last week looked half done. I do think its funny in a way that they moved in just as the rebuild of the station was reached its peak, but perhaps easier to get to than somewhere down the highway in wapping.

 

[Abpj17]

Are you sure News Int has moved in? When I was there last week looked half done. I do think its funny in a way that they moved in just as the rebuild of the station was reached its peak, but perhaps easier to get to than somewhere down the highway in wapping.

They've largely moved out of the highway building so assume they've gone somewhere!

 

[Bald Rick]

When does the middle 2 track CX viaduct close and track slue over to the northern one?

Christmas this year.

 

[21C101]

Christmas this year.

They started moving in during the summer, the Bedford contingent very pleased that they had a direct train to London Bridge and no longer had to walk through St Katherines Dock.......

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Good question, and one I have been waiting years for someone to ask so I can answer.

He he! Happy to oblige and thanks for the detailed explanation.

 

[Taunton]

I do recall a previous big track rearrangement at London Bridge around May 1976, various tracks were reversed in direction all the way from Borough Market out to Lewisham if not Orpington, Tanners Hill flyover brought into use, large amounts of new pointwork everywhere, etc.

Do I recall correctly that the big transition from old to new was made over one long weekend ..........? Those of you on the project may like this old video, seems surprisingly familiar in places.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9irIhwYmRqxTHBMa0RrX3Q2NE0/edit?pli=1

 

[ironstone11]

I do recall a previous big track rearrangement at London Bridge around May 1976, various tracks were reversed in direction all the way from Borough Market out to Lewisham if not Orpington, Tanners Hill flyover brought into use, large amounts of new pointwork everywhere, etc.

Do I recall correctly that the big transition from old to new was made over one long weekend ..........? Those of you on the project may like this old video, seems surprisingly familiar in places.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9irIhwYmRqxTHBMa0RrX3Q2NE0/edit?pli=1

What an excellent video. Many thanks for posting the link.

 

[Jimini]

They started moving in during the summer, the Bedford contingent very pleased that they had a direct train to London Bridge and no longer had to walk through St Katherines Dock.......

Yep - News UK moved in over the summer, Dow Jones in December, and HarperCollins move in from their current offices in Hammersmith in a couple of weeks. They're letting out floors 3-5 which are the ones mostly affected by noise from the railway. I work on level 8 on the north-west corner where the tracks split to Cannon St / Charing X and I don't hear anything.

 

[IanKR]

Fair shout - Tanners Hill 'fly down' doubling does help that.

Will *all* Bexleyheath line trains to/from CHX use the Tanners Hill Flydown? At the moment (or at least up till last Friday) very few Down evening peak trains used it (I assume that the removal of Spa Road crossover will enforce this?).

 

[hwl]

Picture of P6 today from the NR London Bridge Twitter account (https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLBG)


pic.twitter.com/JvpvzIt6I5

 

[IanKR]

Thanks Bald Rick for all your posts on this - very interesting to read

Copy that.

 

[Bald Rick]

Will *all* Bexleyheath line trains to/from CHX use the Tanners Hill Flydown? At the moment (or at least up till last Friday) very few Down evening peak trains used it (I assume that the removal of Spa Road crossover will enforce this?).

RTT says yes.

 

[IanKR]

RTT says yes.

Thanks

 

[Barn]

On platforms 1-2 at the moment and it's quite busy, with these being the only Southeastern down platforms in use. Unfortunately the platforms still have lots of buildings and other furniture on them taking up valuable space.

 

[Bald Rick]

On platforms 1-2 at the moment and it's quite busy, with these being the only Southeastern down platforms in use. Unfortunately the platforms still have lots of buildings and other furniture on them taking up valuable space.

That's being looked into right now. Unfortunately the rain tonight didn't help as people were less keen to move to the un sheltered parts of the platform.

It does however rain in this country sometimes.

There were also a surprising number of people who hadn't heard about the service changes, including a lot of Greenwich passengers pitching up at Charing Cross this evening.

 

[Taunton]

There were also a surprising number of people who hadn't heard about the service changes, including a lot of Greenwich passengers pitching up at Charing Cross this evening.

This probably says something about the way in which changes were announced, which did seem to be in a fairly railway-knowledgeable prose. I believe the substantial numbers who commuted into Waterloo Main Line and then went on from Waterloo Eastern to London Bridge, then walking to their offices on both sides of the river, were particularly surprised at the changes; the posters never seemed to use the word Waterloo at all, only Charing Cross. Of course, WE all know ...

 

[neilm]

Can anyone confirm which tracks are in use at London bridge for Charing cross trains, is it only the up loop and number 4 for down? I had a look but could not see clearly.

 

[hwl]

Can anyone confirm which tracks are in use at London bridge for Charing cross trains, is it only the up loop and number 4 for down? I had a look but could not see clearly.

Yes just up loop and P4 for Down
(swapping to P5 for up services in few months when they have demolished plenty of P5/6)

 

[Bald Rick]

Can anyone confirm which tracks are in use at London bridge for Charing cross trains, is it only the up loop and number 4 for down? I had a look but could not see clearly.

At London Bridge, yes. Down trains swap to 5 at the next signal out.

 

[hwl]

That's being looked into right now. Unfortunately the rain tonight didn't help as people were less keen to move to the un sheltered parts of the platform.

It does however rain in this country sometimes.

There were also a surprising number of people who hadn't heard about the service changes, including a lot of Greenwich passengers pitching up at Charing Cross this evening.

Firstly thanks for the reply the other day on Cannon Street - most informative

Hmm take the roof of P1/2 then

Greenwich line at CHX - how did they get into work this morning or did they attempt to come home on autopilot?

 

[theageofthetra]

London Bridge rebuilding- how it was done 40 years ago-BTF Operation London Bridge 1975: http://youtu.be/V7Qlnu9Gbdw

[youtube]V7Qlnu9Gbdw[/youtube]

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I believe the substantial numbers who commuted into Waterloo Main Line and then went on from Waterloo Eastern to London Bridge, then walking to their offices on both sides of the river, were particularly surprised at the changes; the posters never seemed to use the word Waterloo at all, only Charing Cross. Of course, WE all know ...

Ah yes, because clearly these people have would have never ever noticed on boarding the trains for their return journeys at London Bridge each day that the final destination of the train is *always* Charing Cross