London Bridge reconstruction works

[Minstral25]

in the planning stage surely the people doing the planning must have had a fair idea that problems would occur whilst rebuilding London Bridge. Why didn't they do some works ahead of time elsewhere on Network - like remove some flat crossings further down the line in 2009-13 ready for this work (Herne Hill/Windmill Jnct) or make sure more stock was ordered and delivered before the blockade to ensure longer trains could run.

I mean imagine if the flat crossing was fixed north of Herne Hill how many more trains they could run to Victoria from South Eastern and Blackfriars from Southern/Thameslink or if they had spent 80-90 million on another 15 class 377/387's to relieve congestion on overloaded trains

Or did the Political Masters at DfT stop them from doing these sensible changes

 

[carriageline]

No spare trains. Every unit is out in the peaks' except for those under maintenance. So to provide 12s on the woolwich line (assuming SDO could be sorted, or Woolwich Dockyard was skipped by 12s), would mean taking stock off other routes.

Well I got a 15:40(ish) train from Victoria to Ramsgate for the last few days. First day it was four car and packed/standing, then the next day it was too. Then the guard announced it will now be a four car, as it changed in the London Bridge timetable!

 

[Class377/5]

in the planning stage surely the people doing the planning must have had a fair idea that problems would occur whilst rebuilding London Bridge. Why didn't they do some works ahead of time elsewhere on Network - like remove some flat crossings further down the line in 2009-13 ready for this work (Herne Hill/Windmill Jnct) or make sure more stock was ordered and delivered before the blockade to ensure longer trains could run.

I mean imagine if the flat crossing was fixed north of Herne Hill how many more trains they could run to Victoria from South Eastern and Blackfriars from Southern/Thameslink or if they had spent 80-90 million on another 15 class 377/387's to relieve congestion on overloaded trains

Or did the Political Masters at DfT stop them from doing these sensible changes

Flat crossing north of Herne Hill? You mean Loughborough Junction that's on a viaduct and would cost a lot of money for very little benefit.

Herne Hill its self is the actual problem flat cross (double ended junction either side of 8 car platforms) stopping more trains running. The only solution would be a double deck station on a viaduct station to begin with means you'd be having a five story station in the middle of a residential area. If you got through local opposition your still looking at around £300-400m cost for the station alone.

Windmill Bridge Junction is to have works on it but its a massive project as it affects a lot of services.

 

[Bald Rick]

in the planning stage surely the people doing the planning must have had a fair idea that problems would occur whilst rebuilding London Bridge. Why didn't they do some works ahead of time elsewhere on Network - like remove some flat crossings further down the line in 2009-13 ready for this work (Herne Hill/Windmill Jnct) or make sure more stock was ordered and delivered before the blockade to ensure longer trains could run.

Well of course the plan as late as 2012 was to have the Class 700s in service now, releasing existing stock for lengthening trains on Southern and Southeatsern.

But they were ordered a bit late.

 

[theageofthetra]

One aspect of the new timetable is that the stock is being kept running all day and for longer to bolster capacity. Could someone with a heavy rail engineering background clarify something. When you have 20+ year old stock such as the Networkers (new traction packs notwithstanding) does it help reliability by keeping them 'warm' and running all day as opposed to being split off outside the peaks and left in sidings or termini? or are they going to be flogged to death by running a lot more hours?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

One aspect of the new timetable is that the stock is being kept running all day and for longer to bolster capacity. Could someone with a heavy rail engineering background clarify something. When you have 20+ year old stock such as the Networkers (new traction packs notwithstanding) does it help reliability by keeping them 'warm' and running all day as opposed to being split off outside the peaks and left in sidings or termini? or are they going to be flogged to death by running a lot more hours?

They'll probably hit mileage limits more often for any maintenance work that's done every so many hundred miles run

 

[Minstral25]

Flat crossing north of Herne Hill? You mean Loughborough Junction that's on a viaduct and would cost a lot of money for very little benefit.

Herne Hill its self is the actual problem flat cross (double ended junction either side of 8 car platforms) stopping more trains running. The only solution would be a double deck station on a viaduct station to begin with means you'd be having a five story station in the middle of a residential area. If you got through local opposition your still looking at around £300-400m cost for the station alone.

Windmill Bridge Junction is to have works on it but its a massive project as it affects a lot of services.

No I meant Herne Hill North Junction, where there is plenty of room north of the station (may require some Land Grab from SITA Warehouse north of station) and if you did, you could remove the junction to the south of the station as trains wouldn't cross routes and thus might have room to extend station south for longer platforms (although yes it is mostly on Viaducts)

I'm am pretty sure there is no trains that start of Victoria Lines and end up on Blackfriars lines at this location or vice versa. All trains cross at Herne Hill

Windmill Junction is a big job, so us lucky people south of East Croydon will get another set of delays/cancellations when it is eventually done in early 2020's.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well of course the plan as late as 2012 was to have the Class 700s in service now, releasing existing stock for lengthening trains on Southern and Southeatsern.

But they were ordered a bit late.

Ah, so that explains why Southern thought they would have more trains when they built the platform extensions (something that I was puzzled about after reading your earlier answer).

Googling around a bit, it seems the reason for the late order for the class 700's was the Government delaying rail investment after the 2010 election so it could review costs. If that's so, that would seem to imply, for anyone who wants to apportion blame, that the fault for lack of longer trains during the London Bridge disruption largely lies with the DfT/Government?

 

[Bald Rick]

No I meant Herne Hill North Junction, where there is plenty of room north of the station (may require some Land Grab from SITA Warehouse north of station) and if you did, you could remove the junction to the south of the station as trains wouldn't cross routes and thus might have room to extend station south for longer platforms (although yes it is mostly on Viaducts)

I'm am pretty sure there is no trains that start of Victoria Lines and end up on Blackfriars lines at this location or vice versa. All trains cross at Herne Hill

Windmill Junction is a big job, so us lucky people south of East Croydon will get another set of delays/cancellations when it is eventually done in early 2020's.

It's not a simple job, it's been looked at. It is not possible to get the line ex Tulse Hill up and over the Vic lines without starting the ramp well south of Herne Hill station.

There are quite a few services that do Kent House <> Blackfriars on weekdays, and Victoria <> Tulse Hill is a regular diversionary route for planned and unplanned disruption (regularly used by Gatwick expresses)

 

[Ironside]

Googling around a bit, it seems the reason for the late order for the class 700's was the Government delaying rail investment after the 2010 election so it could review costs. If that's so, that would seem to imply, for anyone who wants to apportion blame, that the fault for lack of longer trains during the London Bridge disruption largely lies with the DfT/Government?

Yes, or from the other perspective the previous governments failure to anticipate loosing the last election and either giving more information to the opposition parties or having the kind of cross party infrastructure planning that the current labour shadow government now suggest.

 

[Minstral25]

It's not a simple job, it's been looked at. It is not possible to get the line ex Tulse Hill up and over the Vic lines without starting the ramp well south of Herne Hill station.

There are quite a few services that do Kent House <> Blackfriars on weekdays, and Victoria <> Tulse Hill is a regular diversionary route for planned and unplanned disruption (regularly used by Gatwick expresses)

Looking at it as an amateur crayonista, I would have taken the South Eastern lines over the Tulse Hill lines as the ramp could start well back from the crossover point, Probably still with the problem at platforms on the East side of the stations which would become SE platforms. Would be enough space for a link up from the Northbound Tulse Hill line but probably not enough for southbound.

Anyway it's not done and we now have lack of line capacity issues. My point was surely some planning ahead could have allowed some measures to ensure capacity constraints outside of London Bridge itself didn't add to the problems at London Bridge. Similar with buying extra stock - they should have got a lot more stock delivered as people are struggling to get on existing trains as they are too short, where longer trains could be provided if there was enough stock. Seems to me DfT was a fault for both these issues by not allowing investment and sitting on Class 700 order for too long.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Variable loadings - 1655 Blackfriars to Dover - (fast Elephant to Rochester) , does not seem to have more than 50 people on the whole train.....

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Looking at it as an amateur crayonista, I would have taken the South Eastern lines over the Tulse Hill lines as the ramp could start well back from the crossover point, Probably still with the problem at platforms on the East side of the stations which would become SE platforms. Would be enough space for a link up from the Northbound Tulse Hill line but probably not enough for southbound.

Anyway it's not done and we now have lack of line capacity issues. My point was surely some planning ahead could have allowed some measures to ensure capacity constraints outside of London Bridge itself didn't add to the problems at London Bridge.

But if NR had come up with some scheme to grade-separate Herne Hill, then it would presumably have caused considerable disruption to all routes through Herne Hill to build it. And I'd bet people would then have been saying, why didn't they wait for the London Bridge works and corresponding capacity increase before they blocked the Herne Hill route...

 

[user15681]

Variable loadings - 1655 Blackfriars to Dover - (fast Elephant to Rochester) , does not seem to have more than 50 people on the whole train.....

Definitely more than 50 on board, including me . I'd say around each carriage half full, although more full towards the front. I'd estimate around 200 (out of ~350 seats), usual for that service. On the fast Elephant to Rochester point, some poor lady and boy got on at Elephant expecting it to stop at Loughborough Junction...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Definitely more than 50 on board, including me . I'd say around each carriage half full, although more full towards the front. I'd estimate around 200 (out of ~350 seats), usual for that service. On the fast Elephant to Rochester point, some poor lady and boy got on at Elephant expecting it to stop at Loughborough Junction...

Good - pleased to hear that loadings have picked up - it takes time fo people to work out a variable way to travel.

I once got on the only train of the day from Victoria to skip Bromley South - way back - so sympathise entirely.(fast to Chatham as I recall !)

 

[Class377/5]

No I meant Herne Hill North Junction, where there is plenty of room north of the station (may require some Land Grab from SITA Warehouse north of station) and if you did, you could remove the junction to the south of the station as trains wouldn't cross routes and thus might have room to extend station south for longer platforms (although yes it is mostly on Viaducts)

I'm am pretty sure there is no trains that start of Victoria Lines and end up on Blackfriars lines at this location or vice versa. All trains cross at Herne Hill

Windmill Junction is a big job, so us lucky people south of East Croydon will get another set of delays/cancellations when it is eventually done in early 2020's.

As Herne Hill had been dealt with by Bald Rick, I'll turn to Windmill Junction. Well what do you want to happen there? Current situation let add it is, unable to cope with today's traffic levels let along in 20 years time or actually have the work done?

 

[Aictos]

What's the issue at Windmill Junction? Don't often use the route hence why I asked.

 

[Bald Rick]

What's the issue at Windmill Junction? Don't often use the route hence why I asked.

1) All northbound fasts to London Bridge cross all southbound fasts from Vic on the flat.

2) all northbound slows to London Bridge cross all southbound slows from Vic on the flat.

3) the curve from West Croydon to Selhurst can only stand 8 coach trains.

All to be sorted in the period 2020-2023 concurrent with re signalling, subject to funding. (But looking good so far)

Pedantic of Purley explains much better than I can...

www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-7-east-croydon/

 

[Tangent]

It's not a simple job, it's been looked at. It is not possible to get the line ex Tulse Hill up and over the Vic lines without starting the ramp well south of Herne Hill station.

There are quite a few services that do Kent House <> Blackfriars on weekdays, and Victoria <> Tulse Hill is a regular diversionary route for planned and unplanned disruption (regularly used by Gatwick expresses)

Were flyunders considered too? (I have a crayonista scheme that tries to solve the problem this way, although that's partly because Tulse Hill would be turned over to a Northern Line extension emerging from tunnel at Milkwood Road.)

 

[bicbasher]

The toilets on the Platform 1/2 island are closing on Sunday to ease overcrowding.

Platform 3's ladies toilets will remain open, while men will have to use the loos in the subway between the Southern platforms and Joiners Walk.

 

[Bald Rick]

The toilets on the Platform 1/2 island are closing on Sunday to ease overcrowding.

And the coffee shop. Both being demolished Feb 22.

 

[Busaholic]

Were flyunders considered too? (I have a crayonista scheme that tries to solve the problem this way, although that's partly because Tulse Hill would be turned over to a Northern Line extension emerging from tunnel at Milkwood Road.)

Damn! My scheme takes the Victoria Line there.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Damn! My scheme takes the Victoria Line there.

Not much point when the latter is "a little short" of passenger capacity from about Vauxhall northwards in the morning.! (if not St Ockwell)

If you can find an empty Central London tube line going north - then crayon 'em in

Only joking .....sorting out Ouest Croydon has many benefits - it is , as the Evening Standard mentioned , a potential "New Barcelona" ....

Hopefully without the endemic robbing and pick pocketing.

 

[Busaholic]

Not much point when the latter is "a little short" of passenger capacity from about Vauxhall northwards in the morning.! (if not St Ockwell)

If you can find an empty Central London tube line going north - then crayon 'em in

Only joking .....sorting out Ouest Croydon has many benefits - it is , as the Evening Standard mentioned , a potential "New Barcelona" ....

Hopefully without the endemic robbing and pick pocketing.

In all seriousness (mine, anyway) I'd much rather see the Northern Line going that way than deviating to Battersea, too late though it may possibly be to stop that. Actually, if there weren't serious proposals at last to extend the Bakerloo into S.E. London that would have been the top candidate, given it does have sufficient capacity.

 

[Barn]

Anything interesting happening this weekend with the Southern platforms all closed?

 

[Bald Rick]

Anything interesting happening this weekend with the Southern platforms all closed?

Booked follow up works. Tamping, removing defects, etc. standard procedure 3-4 weeks after major work.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In all seriousness (mine, anyway) I'd much rather see the Northern Line going that way than deviating to Battersea, too late though it may possibly be to stop that. Actually, if there weren't serious proposals at last to extend the Bakerloo into S.E. London that would have been the top candidate, given it does have sufficient capacity.

I suspect contracts have been let for the Northern line "loop via Battersea (which is economically using terminating trains at Kennington + a few more into the timetable.

The Bakerloo is of course crayoned into become the Hayes / Beckenham line at some point.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Couple if things:-

I noticed that one of the tower cranes was was half dismantled today, did they run out of time to remove the whole thing? Not seen a half dismantled crane without an attendant mobile crane before (well excluding the one hit by the helicopter)

I also noticed that it appears that a through platform cannot go immediately alongside Platform 10 as the resultant line would then be going through the new News International building. So is there a big common area between platform 10 and 9. Or is there another terminating platform to go in?

 

[swt_passenger]

I also noticed that it appears that a through platform cannot go immediately alongside Platform 10 as the resultant line would then be going through the new News International building. So is there a big common area between platform 10 and 9. Or is there another terminating platform to go in?

There is quite a large triangular area alongside P10 which includes paid and non paid escalators between the ground level and upper concourses. P9 and P10 are only really next to one another at the furthest East end of P9.

Edited to add extract from planning drawing.

 

[Bald Rick]

This presentation from last year helps explain the construction sequence (not mine)

http://www.ice.org.uk/ICE_Web_Porta...Thameslink-KO2-London-Bridge-Presentation.pdf