London Buses Discussion

[700007]

One elephant in the room is the night routes, some of them at least in the week feel like they carry fresh air [the outer suburban night routes have this feel], cutting back, merging some of them might help, such as extending the night 25 to Harold Hill as N25 to replace the N86 could be a doer

There are some night routes that indeed are quiet. Two that spring to mind are N550 and N551 but these two I think are very poorly promoted or advertised and most people are not aware of the services. They do support the intensively busy N15 for much of their respective routes (and for a lot of common links, take the same amount of time as the N15) but as people I assume are not aware of this, they keep deliberately letting go of N550 and N551 in favour of the N15. If they were promoted better, I'm almost certain they wouldn't be as quiet as they are and would really help the struggling N15.

 

[Mikey C]

One thing I have noticed is that while the night buses out of central London are mainly used by pubbers and clubbers, the ones going in to central London are used by early morning workers - cleaners, security guards etc

Thus while the former traffic will have been wiped out by Covid closing all the entertainment venues, the latter won't be as badly affected. And provide an important social/economic service for London

 

[MotCO]

There are some night routes that indeed are quiet. Two that spring to mind are N550 and N551 but these two I think are very poorly promoted or advertised and most people are not aware of the services. They do support the intensively busy N15 for much of their respective routes (and for a lot of common links, take the same amount of time as the N15) but as people I assume are not aware of this, they keep deliberately letting go of N550 and N551 in favour of the N15. If they were promoted better, I'm almost certain they wouldn't be as quiet as they are and would really help the struggling N15.

Is this one of the problems with not showing intermediate points on blinds? If the destination just shows Canning Town or Gallions Reach, how do you know what route it is taking?

 

[Busaholic]

Is this one of the problems with not showing intermediate points on blinds? If the destination just shows Canning Town or Gallions Reach, how do you know what route it is taking?

Probably contributes to the reluctance. I always thought the numbers chosen were likely to sow confusion too, with no corresponding day route numbers, and people are doubtless wary of jumping on a bus in the middle of the night unsure of its route. I know I wouldn't have done it even when younger and fitter.

 

[higthomas]

I couldn't agree with you more. Absolutely spot-on.

In respect of attracting passengers back I think it's simply the case that no one has got a clue what to do. The marketing team is a completely separate entity within TfL from Buses, which is essentially just the contract management and bus station management side of the business. Even service planning is in a separate directorate these days.

In respect of marketing I think you only have to look at the awful recent attempts at area route branding to conclude there's a major problem.

TBH, I think marketing, branding etc are going to have a miniscule impact compared to the single massive thing pushing people off of buses (pre-pandemic), especially those in central areas, which is speed.
I recently wanted to go from Piccadilly to High Street Kensington, a simple journey on the 9. It took something like 45 minutes, with about half of that following a million taxis around Hyde Park Corner. Until they change that they're going to continue to require large PVRs and haemorrhage passengers.

 

[chopperman21]

One elephant in the room is the night routes, some of them at least in the week feel like they carry fresh air [the outer suburban night routes have this feel], cutting back, merging some of them might help, such as extending the night 25 to Harold Hill as N25 to replace the N86 could be a doer

Night routes are being reduced, N55 is reduced to every 30 mins on Friday/Saturday nights from this weekend.

I like the idea of extending the N25 to Harold Hill, but I would want to see a break with tradition and 8bph running to Ilford, 4bph to Romford and 2bph to Harold Hill.

 

[Busaholic]

Night routes are being reduced, N55 is reduced to every 30 mins on Friday/Saturday nights from this weekend.

I like the idea of extending the N25 to Harold Hill, but I would want to see a break with tradition and 8bph running to Ilford, 4bph to Romford and 2bph to Harold Hill.

Common sense says that type of arrangement should make a comeback, but I'm not sure common sense is in large supply at TfL Tower!

 

[Snow1964]

The oldest bus still in service in London is WVL204 (05-reg) at Merton, a garage which currently holds the title of the oldest and newest buses in London.

Looks like WVL204 hasn’t been used since morning of 16th (same day couple more electric Metrodeckers entered service).

With the V school extras finishing this week, the older stragglers kept on to operate these extras are likely to all leave London

 

[AndyHA]

The “road works” and temporary traffic lights in Central London and the City do not help either .

Last Friday afternoon for instance it too me an Hour and 10 mins on a route 11 bus from Victoria Coach Station to Liverpool Street Station .

 

[chopperman21]

Looks like WVL204 hasn’t been used since morning of 16th (same day couple more electric Metrodeckers entered service).

With the V school extras finishing this week, the older stragglers kept on to operate these extras are likely to all leave London

Only an hour after your post, it comes out on the V655 this morning

 

[galwhv69]

Only an hour after your post, it comes out on the V655 this morning

Very annoyed as I tried catching it yesterday only to find it didn't run

 

[Statto]

Common sense says that type of arrangement should make a comeback, but I'm not sure common sense is in large supply at TfL Tower!

Yep, the N25 did go to Harold Hill before it got converted to 24h hour route with the day 25, with N86 being created as replacement for the outer section of the N25, but it meant the through route from Central London was lost in the change, the old N25 [during the week anyway] used to be 4bph Ilford, then 1 an hour extending via Romford to Harold Hill, with another 1 an hour extending to Hainault via Gants Hill.

 

[Snow1964]

The TfL fleet is now euroVI or better, as the residual school extras are now discontinued. All references to school extras have been removed from TfL bus changes webpage

Bus changes

Permanent changes to TfL bus routes including new routes and changes to first and last stops.

tfl.gov.uk

This webpage shows nothing after today, but there are loads of routes (in central area) getting frequency cuts in August-September. However as nothing is officially published yet, will hold off from discussing to avoid any speculative chat.

 

[DaveLondon]

Looks like WVL204 hasn’t been used since morning of 16th (same day couple more electric Metrodeckers entered service).

With the V school extras finishing this week, the older stragglers kept on to operate these extras are likely to all leave London

Looks like WVL204 has been out this week - not gone yet but I doubt it will reappear in September. It has been known to operate rail replacements recently.

 

[700007]

111 has been awarded to Abellio London from their Twickenham (TF) depot with 30 fully electric buses (for a PVR of 27). The route is currently at London United RATP Group from Hounslow (AV) using Scania OmniCities. It was supposed to convert to LT Borisbuses very shortly however at this stage it is unclear whether this will proceed for the remainder of the contract at London United, with the LTs going elsewhere when the route passes to Abellio. Start date 30th April 2022.

Source: lots.org.uk

 

[londonbridge]

Towards the end of last year there was a consultation on proposed changes to routes in the Sutton/Croydon area, including,among others, routes S1/S3/S4, 80, 164, 407 and 455. Does anyone have an update on this as to whether any of the changes are going ahead and, if they are, when would they be implemented?

 

[Andyh82]

I couldn't agree with you more. Absolutely spot-on.

In respect of attracting passengers back I think it's simply the case that no one has got a clue what to do. The marketing team is a completely separate entity within TfL from Buses, which is essentially just the contract management and bus station management side of the business. Even service planning is in a separate directorate these days.

In respect of marketing I think you only have to look at the awful recent attempts at area route branding to conclude there's a major problem.

I don’t think anyone at TfL knows how to do marketing to get people on board because they’ve never had to do it. Buses and the tube has generally had too many passengers and it was all very easy to get full vehicles.

You only have to look at the lengths the good bus companies go to to get people on board out in the provinces, in London all they’ve done in recent years is freeze the fare.

 

[johncrossley]

London isn't really suitable for route branding. They are selling a *network*, whereas outside London they sell *routes*. Bus companies outside London are not particularly interested in passengers who need to travel on more than one route, they just leave that market to the car. Outside London, they have to try and kid people that their fares are 'good value', which everyone knows is a euphemism for 'expensive'. In many places they keep tinkering with routes, brandings and timetables to confuse passengers. The constantly changing routes and timetables in the big cities outside London is widely considered to be a contributory factor to a dramatic fall in bus usage in the years immediately after deregulation. In London, we have a 100+ year old brand (i.e. the red London bus) that would be foolish to mess with.

 

[Goldfish62]

I don’t think anyone at TfL knows how to do marketing to get people on board because they’ve never had to do it. Buses and the tube has generally had too many passengers and it was all very easy to get full vehicles.

The last really good marketing campaign was "Buses are getting better". It very effectively drew attention to the expanding bus network in the early to mid 2000s.

The problem now is, how do you market a contracting bus network?

 

[bb21]

The last really good marketing campaign was "Buses are getting better". It very effectively drew attention to the expanding bus network in the early to mid 2000s.

The problem now is, how do you market a contracting bus network?

Getting the basics right is the first step - information provision.

I cannot be the only one who finds that missing timetable information at bus stops is becoming more frequent. Out-of-date and a diminishing number of spider maps online, and a lack of a network map(s) utterly irritating. I previously posted about occurrences of bus stop route flags not being updated a week after route changes, which I found another couple of instances of just pre-pandemic. If you want to promote bus travel, missing maps at bus shelters do not help.

As @johncrossley says, London buses do not need extensive promotion, as the brand is the network, connectivity, and convenience. If you make it easy for people to find out what bus they need, people will use them. Sort out issues with journey speed, as no amount of marketing will help if people have a bad experience with a slow journey.

While it is a contracting network, frequency on most routes is still better than other cities and fares more than reasonable. Get the basics right and it is still a very good operation.

 

[Goldfish62]

Getting the basics right is the first step - information provision.

I cannot be the only one who finds that missing timetable information at bus stops is becoming more frequent. Out-of-date and a diminishing number of spider maps online, and a lack of a network map(s) utterly irritating. I previously posted about occurrences of bus stop route flags not being updated a week after route changes, which I found another couple of instances of just pre-pandemic. If you want to promote bus travel, missing maps at bus shelters do not help.

As @johncrossley says, London buses do not need extensive promotion, as the brand is the network, connectivity, and convenience. If you make it easy for people to find out what bus they need, people will use them. Sort out issues with journey speed, as no amount of marketing will help if people have a bad experience with a slow journey.

While it is a contracting network, frequency on most routes is still better than other cities and fares more than reasonable. Get the basics right and it is still a very good operation.

Yes, good points.

As you say it really is a very good network. Apart from a few infrequent services, to be able to turn up at a bus stop and expect a bus to arrive within a few minutes anywhere in the city is not something you can do elsewhere in the country.

The situation with publicity is depressing. London Buses uses to be an exemplar in this respect, now it's no better and in some cases worse, than anywhere else. I don't think it's any coincidence that publicity started taking a nosedive with the last reorganisation under the previous Commissioner.

Journey times are actually a major concern at TfL Towers. It's a difficult enough nut to crack as it is with the wildly varying attitudes at the boroughs towards buses. Some are extremely positive towards buses, while others are downright hostile. Then there are the issues of dedicated road space for cyclists, slack schedules on *some* routes, even more online delivery vans due to the pandemic, and what appears to be a car-led recovery.

 

[Statto]

The lack of maps is really annoying, that TFL done away with the orbital maps a couple of years ago makes it even more annoying, plus many passengers want to know how long the journey tales, then generic takes up to 85 minutes isn't good enough, when does the journey take 85 minutes, morning peak, school journeys, or evening peak, also what's the journey time around 12pm, which could be 50-60 minutes.

I know there are some independent sites that have the whole timetable up & sell maps, but it's not good enough from TFL, in fact it's quite lazy from TFL

 

[MotCO]

The lack of maps is really annoying, that TFL done away with the orbital maps a couple of years ago makes it even more annoying, plus many passengers want to know how long the journey tales, then generic takes up to 85 minutes isn't good enough, when does the journey take 85 minutes, morning peak, school journeys, or evening peak, also what's the journey time around 12pm, which could be 50-60 minutes.

I know there are some independent sites that have the whole timetable up & sell maps, but it's not good enough from TFL, in fact it's quite lazy from TFL

A hobby horse of mine, but without maps or timetables, how does one know what route a bus takes when the only information on the front of a bus is its number and destination?

 

[smtglasgow]

It’s crazy to think that the two best sources of London bus information are Robert Munster’s site (for timetables, frequencies and journey times) and Mike Harris for maps.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, good points.

As you say it really is a very good network. Apart from a few infrequent services, to be able to turn up at a bus stop and expect a bus to arrive within a few minutes anywhere in the city is not something you can do elsewhere in the country.

The situation with publicity is depressing. London Buses uses to be an exemplar in this respect, now it's no better and in some cases worse, than anywhere else. I don't think it's any coincidence that publicity started taking a nosedive with the last reorganisation under the previous Commissioner.

Journey times are actually a major concern at TfL Towers. It's a difficult enough nut to crack as it is with the wildly varying attitudes at the boroughs towards buses. Some are extremely positive towards buses, while others are downright hostile. Then there are the issues of dedicated road space for cyclists, slack schedules on *some* routes, even more online delivery vans due to the pandemic, and what appears to be a car-led recovery.

But then many of TfL's own decisions have directly led to slower bus journey times, whether cycle lanes, or removing gyratories and one way systems. Virtually all their road schemes are designed to improve things for pedestrians and cyclists, which is great but comes at the expense of vehicles, including buses

 

[johncrossley]

I love maps, so much so that I've paid for an independent London bus map, but even I would concede that hardly anyone would use it if the official map still existed. Transport routes and timetables sometimes make a nonsense out of geography, so what looks like a good direct route on the map may not be the quickest route, which is what most people are interested in and a journey planner is fairly likely to give the quickest route.

 

[Class465pacer]

A hobby horse of mine, but without maps or timetables, how does one know what route a bus takes when the only information on the front of a bus is its number and destination?

Google Maps

 

[Mikey C]

Google Maps

Or Apps on your phone. I use a bus app (buschecker) when waiting at stops, rather than the printed timetables as it's usually more accurate

 

[Class465pacer]

Or Apps on your phone. I use a bus app (buschecker) when waiting at stops, rather than the printed timetables as it's usually more accurate

The printed timetables in my area may as well be binned as they have zero correlation to reality

 

[Snow1964]

TfL buses have also gone into stealth mode online, it’s not just lack of physical maps and timetables

example the TfL bus changes webpage, which should show changes planned through to about 4-6 weeks ahead only shows changes from 1-2 weeks ago

Bus changes

Permanent changes to TfL bus routes including new routes and changes to first and last stops.

tfl.gov.uk

example 2 : TFL London service permit, a fortnightly update is still showing a version from 7 weeks ago

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/lsp-bulletin.pdf