London Buses Discussion

[Edvid]

By chance I read up on the Essex Saver (£11.10 for a day, except Sundays and bank holidays*) and was intrigued to find it is valid on applicable TfL services; AIUI non-TfL tickets aren't otherwise accepted on the London bus network. It looks like there's only one LSP route it's accepted on (NIBSbuses 269) so that may be the reason.

[* On those days, there's a Sunday Saver for £5.18 to reflect the service frequency. TfL routes that link Essex settlements a fair distance from the county boundary are specifically excluded, and those that enter Thurrock borough only (for Lakeside etc) are already beyond Saver validity.]

 

[450.emu]

Needs to be a transformer.

Hopefully this would rectify the situation

 

[J-2739]

The GB Kite Electroliners for route E7 are under manufacturing. They also feature the new front bumper

https://x.com/essexeclipse2/status/1718042348376949026?s=46&t=NwCcaynuPR-k7xjMa0OtGQ

That looks scary.

 

[Goldfish62]

That looks scary.

I like that description.

 

[76020]

Electrics are running on the 35 Route today, looks like they have too many for Route 40. Also Ee201, which is part of the Route 40 allocation, has still not run in service as yet, but they do have Ee172 Windrush75 on loan.

GoAhead London - Route 35​

Towards - Shoreditch​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
MHV8	BU16OYR	Shoreditch	16:16	74184	Medlar Street
MHV67	BV66VFZ	Shoreditch	16:04	74184	Medlar Street
MHV72	BV66VGF	Shoreditch	16:17	49885	Shoreditch Town Hall
MHV74	BV66VGJ	Shoreditch	16:15	74343	Monument Station
MHV80	BV66VGP	Shoreditch	16:15	47252	Clapham Junction/the Northcote
WHV147	BV66VJF	Shoreditch	16:17	73875	Brixton Station
EH45	YX16OCA	Shoreditch	16:16	56766	Shoreditch High Street Station
EH50	YX16OCF	Shoreditch	16:16	55559	Belvedere Place
EH52	YX16OCH	Shoreditch	16:16	52070	Cedars Road
EH122	SN66WOR	Shoreditch	16:15	54961	Caldecot Road
EH129	SN66WPE	Shoreditch	16:18	71965	Larcom Street
Ee194e	LB23PGK	Shoreditch	16:19	74631	Clapham Junction Station/Falcon Road

Towards - Clapham Junction​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
MHV5	BU16OYN	Clapham Junction	16:16	71452	Bedford Road
MHV70	BV66VGD	Clapham Junction	16:16	56088	Solon Road
MHV85	BV66VKF	Clapham Junction	16:17	75810	Shakespeare Road
EH42	YX16OBW	Clapham Junction	16:15	57949	Denmark Hill/Camberwell Green
EH47	YX16OCC	Clapham Junction	16:15	71431	Sisters Avenue
EH51	YX16OCG	Clapham Junction	16:18	91569	Inner London Crown Court
EH56	YX16OCN	Clapham Junction	16:16	48133	Loughborough Junction Station
EH57	YX16OCO	Clapham Junction	16:16	47176	Caldecot Road
EH59	YX16OCR	Clapham Junction	16:18	47001	East Street
EH119	SN66WOH	Clapham Junction	16:17	74906	Commercial Street/Worship Street
EH125	SN66WOX	Clapham Junction	16:17	49190	Camomile Street
Ee196e	LB23PGU	Clapham Junction	16:17	50399	Southwark Street

 

[SWT_USER]

General TFL bus question - is the company fined by TFL if the wrong type of vehicle is used on a route? Specifically a single decker on a route that is meant to be 100% double deck operation.

If so, do TFL actually monitor this?

 

[Goldfish62]

General TFL bus question - is the company fined by TFL if the wrong type of vehicle is used on a route? Specifically a single decker on a route that is meant to be 100% double deck operation.

No. The only financial penalties are for at-fault lost mileage and service performance below the route standard.

 

[SWT_USER]

No. The only financial penalties are for at-fault lost mileage and service performance below the route standard.

Thanks - seems a bit surprising as presumably the company is failing to meet the contract by not providing the right type of vehicle.

 

[Deerfold]

No. The only financial penalties are for at-fault lost mileage and service performance below the route standard.

Although if a bus does not meet the contracted specification (e.g. no working wheelchair ramp) then that is counted as lost mileage.

 

[FOH]

Electrics are running on the 35 Route today, looks like they have too many for Route 40. Also Ee201, which is part of the Route 40 allocation, has still not run in service as yet, but they do have Ee172 Windrush75 on loan.

GoAhead London - Route 35​

Towards - Shoreditch​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
MHV8	BU16OYR	Shoreditch	16:16	74184	Medlar Street
MHV67	BV66VFZ	Shoreditch	16:04	74184	Medlar Street
MHV72	BV66VGF	Shoreditch	16:17	49885	Shoreditch Town Hall
MHV74	BV66VGJ	Shoreditch	16:15	74343	Monument Station
MHV80	BV66VGP	Shoreditch	16:15	47252	Clapham Junction/the Northcote
WHV147	BV66VJF	Shoreditch	16:17	73875	Brixton Station
EH45	YX16OCA	Shoreditch	16:16	56766	Shoreditch High Street Station
EH50	YX16OCF	Shoreditch	16:16	55559	Belvedere Place
EH52	YX16OCH	Shoreditch	16:16	52070	Cedars Road
EH122	SN66WOR	Shoreditch	16:15	54961	Caldecot Road
EH129	SN66WPE	Shoreditch	16:18	71965	Larcom Street
Ee194e	LB23PGK	Shoreditch	16:19	74631	Clapham Junction Station/Falcon Road

Towards - Clapham Junction​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
MHV5	BU16OYN	Clapham Junction	16:16	71452	Bedford Road
MHV70	BV66VGD	Clapham Junction	16:16	56088	Solon Road
MHV85	BV66VKF	Clapham Junction	16:17	75810	Shakespeare Road
EH42	YX16OBW	Clapham Junction	16:15	57949	Denmark Hill/Camberwell Green
EH47	YX16OCC	Clapham Junction	16:15	71431	Sisters Avenue
EH51	YX16OCG	Clapham Junction	16:18	91569	Inner London Crown Court
EH56	YX16OCN	Clapham Junction	16:16	48133	Loughborough Junction Station
EH57	YX16OCO	Clapham Junction	16:16	47176	Caldecot Road
EH59	YX16OCR	Clapham Junction	16:18	47001	East Street
EH119	SN66WOH	Clapham Junction	16:17	74906	Commercial Street/Worship Street
EH125	SN66WOX	Clapham Junction	16:17	49190	Camomile Street
Ee196e	LB23PGU	Clapham Junction	16:17	50399	Southwark Street

Interesting thanks. I thought the 185 was up next for electrification. Is there any sign of that switch do you know?

 

[Goldfish62]

Although if a bus does not meet the contracted specification (e.g. no working wheelchair ramp) then that is counted as lost mileage.

Yes, a non-functioning ramp is at-fault (deductible) lost mileage not least for the simple reason that legally a bus should not be in service with a defective ramp.

There's nothing where a bus "not meeting the contracted specification" attracts a mileage deduction. The "wrong type of bus" doesn’t.

The bus service contract framework agreement which sets out everything is readily available to read (yawn) if you search for it on the TfL website.

 

[Busaholic]

Thanks - seems a bit surprising as presumably the company is failing to meet the contract by not providing the right type of vehicle.

There'll be 'mitigations' for that sort of thing and the bus companies will find more mitigating circumstances to cite than a top-notch barrister defending a client at the Old Bailey.

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks - seems a bit surprising as presumably the company is failing to meet the contract by not providing the right type of vehicle.

One of the main reasons is resources. A "QICS 2" (Quality Incentive Contract) was trialled about 15 years ago focusing on non-service performance items such as correct vehicle type and presentation, with a bonus and penalty regime. However, the scheme was so resource-heavy the costs couldn't be justified against the very modest benefits that the scheme produced.

There are a number of non-incentived performance measures, eg Driver Quality Monitoring, Engineering Quality Monitoring and Customer Satisfaction Surveys. The results are discussed and acted upon at regular reviews and also taken into account during tender evaluations.

If an operator consistently provides the wrong type of vehicles on a route and does not heed demands to remedy they might themselves in a "not tea and biscuits" meeting with a senior TfL manager, which could be particularly uncomfortable if it coincides with evaluation of any tender bids they've submitted.

Hope that makes reasonable sense!

 

[SWT_USER]

Thanks all for the informative replies.

 

[Notchapple]

Interesting thanks. I thought the 185 was up next for electrification. Is there any sign of that switch do you know?

Regarding the vehicles, 12 of the 25 Ees for the route have arrived and are ready to be put into service at Camberwell Garage, the 25th one(Ee242) rolled off the production line last week.

 

[Mikey C]

If a double decker was used on a single decker route, assuming it fits that seems far less of an issue than the opposite situation.

 

[FOH]

Regarding the vehicles, 12 of the 25 Ees for the route have arrived and are ready to be put into service at Camberwell Garage, the 25th one(Ee242) rolled off the production line last week.

Thanks. Wow what a precise and informative reply! Looking forward to them

 

[MasterSpenny]

Regarding the vehicles, 12 of the 25 Ees for the route have arrived and are ready to be put into service at Camberwell Garage, the 25th one(Ee242) rolled off the production line last week.

I think somebody was remined to put them in service sooner rather than later: Ee222 is now on the 35

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

GoAhead London - Route 35​

Towards - Shoreditch​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
MHV10	BU16OYT	Shoreditch	16:00	50520	Park Hill
MHV67	BV66VFZ	Shoreditch	16:03	71965	Larcom Street
MHV74	BV66VGJ	Shoreditch	15:58	48695	Inner London Crown Court
MHV77	BV66VGM	Shoreditch	16:00	57749	Elephant & Castle Station
MHV82	BV66VKM	Shoreditch	15:59	74184	Medlar Street
EH54	YX16OCL	Shoreditch	15:58	72688	Bedford Road
EH59	YX16OCR	Shoreditch	16:00	47252	Clapham Junction/the Northcote
EH60	YX16OCS	Shoreditch	15:59	56766	Shoreditch High Street Station
EH123	SN66WOU	Shoreditch	16:11	50520	Park Hill
EH128	SN66WPD	Shoreditch	16:05	71965	Larcom Street
EH129	SN66WPE	Shoreditch	15:58	71803	Pomfret Road

Towards - Clapham Junction​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
MHV5	BU16OYN	Clapham Junction	16:02	50054	Camberwell Road/Albany Road
MHV66	BV66VFY	Clapham Junction	16:00	74569	Fenchurch Street
MHV76	BV66VGL	Clapham Junction	15:59	49190	Camomile Street
MHV79	BV66VGO	Clapham Junction	16:06	72104	Liverpool Street Station
EH43	YX16OBY	Clapham Junction	16:13	59241	Forthbridge Road
EH51	YX16OCG	Clapham Junction	16:00	50399	Southwark Street
EH53	YX16OCJ	Clapham Junction	15:58	57949	Denmark Hill/Camberwell Green
EH114	SN66WNZ	Elephant & Castle	15:35	74034	Borough Station
EH115	SN66WOA	Clapham Junction	15:59	91569	Inner London Crown Court
EH130	SN66WPF	Clapham Junction	15:59	47176	Caldecot Road
Ee192e	LB23PGE	Clapham Junction	15:59	73560	Bowyer Place
Ee204e	LG73FTO	Clapham Junction	15:58	53829	Eccles Road
Ee222e	LG73FRC	Clapham Junction	16:00	52526	Lambeth Town Hall

 

[Notchapple]

Thanks. Wow what a precise and informative reply! Looking forward to them

An extra 6 were commisioned today at Camberwell and are now ready for service.

I think somebody was remined to put them in service sooner rather than later: Ee222 is now on the 35

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

Ee225 just left the garage now with the driver taking it onto the 40

 

[MasterSpenny]

A new order for 34 Wrightbus Electroliners has been made by Arriva London.
Isn’t it meant to be getting 33 though?

Wrightbus Secure New Arriva London Electroliner Order

Manufacturer Wrightbus picks up new order to deliver world’s most efficient double deck battery electric bus to streets of London The company behind the world's most efficient battery electric double deck bus has secured a new order to deliver 34 more vehicles to Arriva in London.

wrightbus.com

Manufacturer Wrightbus picks up new order to deliver world’s most efficient double deck battery electric bus to streets of London

The company behind the world's most efficient battery electric double deck bus has secured a new order to deliver 34 more vehicles to Arriva in London.

The latest StreetDeck Electroliner buses will be rolled out across the capital next year and takes the total number of vehicles on order with the bus operator to over 100.

Deliveries of the Electroliner from previous orders are already under way to London where a total of 50 will be delivered this year, with a further 24 being supplied to Leicester.

The new buses will be manufactured at Wrightbus’s headquarters in Ballymena in Northern Ireland, supporting hundreds of new high-skilled jobs to help level up and grow the economy.

 

[MotCO]

I have just seen 10162, an E400 on route 61. What struck me was that the registration plate was not the usual L-prefix, but an EU-prefix. Looking into this a bit further, there are 8 E400s with this prefix, 10155 to 10162. Are these transfers from Stagecoach East or Cambridge, or if not, why the non-London plates?

 

[dodecahedron67]

I believe they were originally Romford depot allocated from new - if they were registered there they would probably have received Essex registration plates, hence the EU62 XXX

 

[AM9]

I believe they were originally Romford depot allocated from new - if they were registered there they would probably have received Essex registration plates, hence the EU62 XXX

I wonder how many in that Brexit hotbed realise that the registration prefix is reserved for Essex use?

 

[Busoccultation]

I have just seen 10162, an E400 on route 61. What struck me was that the registration plate was not the usual L-prefix, but an EU-prefix. Looking into this a bit further, there are 8 E400s with this prefix, 10155 to 10162. Are these transfers from Stagecoach East or Cambridge, or if not, why the non-London plates?

New to Romford Garage, so always been part of the Stagecoach London fleet since new in 2012.

It is not the first time Stagecoach London had their buses registered in Essex as their pre-2001 buses like the Y NHK/FJN, X NNO/WNO, V MEV/OWC/KJN, T KPU, S BWC to new a few are actually Chelmsford registrations, the only thing that 10155-10163 batch stands out is being the only batch of buses new to Stagecoach since the 2001 reg format with the Essex plates.

 

[Edvid]

Arriva won the SL2 (March 2024), the 663 (from Go-Ahead, August 2024) and retained seven other routes. 87 electrics have been ordered (to cover all bar the 410 and SL2, per TT Proboards).

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

Leading bus operator Arriva has won two key contracts and retained seven in London that will see more electric buses in the capital. Arriva will invest in 87 new electric buses and will convert Thornton Heath garage in Croydon to become fully electrified.

Transport for London (TfL) awarded Arriva London the bulk of the contracts as part of the organisation’s aim to make transport in London more environmentally-friendly.
Not only will there be a boost in electric buses, but there’ll also be some new routes, which will start next year.

Marcos Hart, managing director of Arriva London said: “The new vehicles represent a fantastic milestone on our journey to operate a greener bus network across London and it’s really exciting news for us as a business and for our customers.
“Our aim is to make Arriva buses the best choice for travel and we welcome customers onboard our journey to decarbonise public transport.”
Being chosen to deliver the two new contracts and keeping seven in London will also deliver over £200m in revenue over the next seven years.

The new routes are:

• SL2 Walthamstow to North Woolwich, starting March 2024
• 663 Thornton Heath to Regina Coeli School, starting August 2024

The routes Arriva has retained are:

• 689 Croydon to Glade Gardens
• 50 Park Lane to Stockwell
• 255 South Lodge Avenue to Balham
• 194 Bell Green to West Croydon
• 410 Crystal Palace to Shotfield
• 250/N250 Brixton to West Croydon
• 289 Elmer End to Purley

 

[MasterSpenny]

There is going to be a West London bus strike on some dates. I just hope it’s not going to end up being long running.

Strikes

TfL travel advice and information during Tube strikes.

tfl.gov.uk

Bus strike - November/December 2023
A strike by RATP Dev Transit London bus drivers will affect 8 routes, mostly in west London.

From approximately 05:00 on strike days little or no service is expected on the affected routes, including night services. A normal service is expected to resume after approximately 06:00 the day after the strike.

Strike dates
10 November
13 November
1 December
4 December
22-23 December
Routes
13, 23, 28, 218, 295, 414 and 452
N28
If travelling on these days, you should plan ahead, check before you travel, consider alternative routes and allow more time for your journey.

 

[BJames]

My apologies - have sought clarity and it looks like it is indeed the 9th December (Sat) for the 329 move to take place as it is the whole allocation moving from Palmers Green to Wood Green.

At the same time as this the 34 allocation at Edmonton Garage (EC) will be moving entirely to Palmers Green (AD) on 09/12/23 to allow operation from one base, putting an end to ferrying between AD and EC.

 

[JonathanH]

Some seats seem to have been replaced with plastic rather than moquette. Is this going to happen to all buses in London?

It's only Stagecoach that's doing this. I don't know what they're playing at given their latest new buses have TfL moquette.

Which vehicles are being fitted with plastic seats? Is it because they have stopped sourcing the beachball moquette, given it is no longer used for new vehicles outside London?

 

[Goldfish62]

Which vehicles are being fitted with plastic seats?

Everything being refurbished. Plain grey, similar to First.

 

[Whiggism]

Is rerouting the 211 to Battersea Power station a good idea?