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London Buses Discussion

Goldfish62

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I'm personally a bit surprised at Stagecoach have gone over to wright in the first place, and paper blinds? Different
Being highly pedantic, polyester blinds, not paper. ;)

The order from Wright's was announced quite a while ago.

It's been suggested to me that the order was placed when LED displays were just optional rather mandatory as I'm told on good authority that they are now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

They ordered Wrightbus presumably due to Alexander Dennis not having the capacity to have that much currently when you factorize Go Ahead London and the groups large provincial Enviro400 MMC order.
ADL is no longer the go-to manufacturer for Stagecoach, certainly in terms of electric buses.

Most recent orders have been split between Wrightbus and Volvo/MCV.
 
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MasterSpenny

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Transport for London has announced the latest tender results today (further source: London Omnibus Traction Society. I am not subscribed to there letters so I can’t copy paste it). I have added an accurate table of what got announced in the table below:
Interesting to see the 283 is going to be a 2 year contract
For the source which is very reliable: http://www.lots.org.uk/
RouteCurrent OperatorNew OperatorNew Peak Vehicle RequirementNew AllocationContract StartContract End
110RATP Dev Transit LondonNA (Retained)TBCNA (Continues to use Enviro200 MMCs)27 April 202426 April 2030
236Stagecoach LondonNA (Retained)14NA (Continues to use Wright StreetLites)27 April 202426 April 2030
242Arriva LondonStagecoach London14New electrics24 February 202421 February 2031
272RATP Dev Transit LondonNA (Retained)9
NA (Continues to use Enviro200 MMCs)
25 May 202424 May 2030
283RATP Dev Transit LondonNA (Retained)10
NA (Continues to use Enviro200 MMCs)
24 February 202420 February 2026
440RATP Dev Transit LondonNA (Retained)12
NA (Continues to use Enviro200 MMCs)
25 May 202424 May 2030
P4Stagecoach LondonGo Ahead London - London Central13Existing diesel single decks27 April 202426 April 2030
 
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busesrusuk

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This is what the new Wright StreetDeck Electroliner EV ordered by Stagecoach London looks like:

View attachment 142611
Personally, I don’t like the fact that they put paper blinds instead of LED blinds which would’ve been better to see from far away.

What are your thoughts on these new vehicles?
Good news for us photographers - at least we can get a blind display!
 

cnjb8

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They ordered Wrightbus presumably due to Alexander Dennis not having the capacity to have that much currently when you factorize Go Ahead London and the groups large provincial Enviro400 MMC order.

However, the paper blinds are so surprising, as almost all new buses are LED blinds.

I wonder what the interior will look like - will it be a high spec beachball like every other Stagecoach London (such as the 160, 173, 174, 180, 673 and 674’s BYD E400 EVs) or the leather seats found elsewhere in the country?
I believe there was also some concern about the battery range of the BYDs, compared to what Wright and Volvo can offer
 

MotCO

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I believe there was also some concern about the battery range of the BYDs, compared to what Wright and Volvo can offer
Is there an hiatus between the ending of the BYD based E400s, and the home-grown AD E400 product?
 

Goldfish62

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The BYDs will be offered to clients alongside the Integrals and will remain in production
One thing to note is that the City and E200EV front designs will have to be modified to comply with the TfL 2024 specification for frontal geometry. Maybe they'll simply adopt the E100EV/all-ADL E400EV design.
 

TWBG

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They ordered Wrightbus presumably due to Alexander Dennis not having the capacity to have that much currently when you factorize Go Ahead London and the groups large provincial Enviro400 MMC order.

However, the paper blinds are so surprising, as almost all new buses are LED blinds.

I wonder what the interior will look like - will it be a high spec beachball like every other Stagecoach London (such as the 160, 173, 174, 180, 673 and 674’s BYD E400 EVs) or the leather seats found elsewhere in the country?
It looks like they’re using moquette; it looks darker unlike the provincial leather
 

MasterSpenny

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Getting somewhere on the 226… 3 BYD E200 EVs out. Feels weird as its the 73 plate period and we are seeing 72 plates enter service for the first time
Key:
DE - 10.2m Enviro 200 Dart
DDE - 9.7m Enviro 200 MMC
BE - BYD E200 EVs ordered for the route


RATP - Route 226​

Towards - Golders Green​

FleetRegDestinationDueStop IdStop Name
DE20094SN10CAXGolders Green17:0651784Waxlow Road
DE20126YX60CCOGolders Green17:0850272Barretts Green Road
DE20156YX11AFFGolders Green17:0553558Cricklewood Broadway
DDE20290YY67UUJGolders Green17:0573774Hodford Road
BE37088eLG72ECXGolders Green17:0750272Barretts Green Road

Towards - Ealing Broadway​

FleetRegDestinationDueStop IdStop Name
DE20093SN10CAVEaling Broadway17:0452159Somerton Road
DE20119YX60CCAEaling Broadway17:0573060The Vale/Hendon Way
DE20123YX60CCJEaling Broadway17:0773262Hail & Ride Section
DE20151YX11AEVEaling Broadway17:0573262Hail & Ride Section
DE20187YX11FZOEaling Broadway17:0673262Hail & Ride Section
DE20190YX11FZSEaling Broadway17:0573262Hail & Ride Section
DE20192YX11FZUEaling Broadway17:1277119Golders Green Station
DE20194YX11FZWEaling Broadway17:0547355Bertie Road
BE37085eLG72ECTEaling Broadway17:0556976Willesden Centre For Health and Care
BE37086eLG72ECVEaling Broadway17:0571608Anson Primary School

Vehicles that have also been on the route during the day :-​

FleetRegUsed FromUsed UntilLine
DE20150YX11CNO00:0001:00
DE20193YX11FZV00:0001:00
DDE20292YY67UUL00:0000:41
 

TWBG

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Getting somewhere on the 226… 3 BYD E200 EVs out. Feels weird as its the 73 plate period and we are seeing 72 plates enter service for the first time
Key:
DE - 10.2m Enviro 200 Dart
DDE - 9.7m Enviro 200 MMC
BE - BYD E200 EVs ordered for the route
The BEs [10.9m Enviro 200 EV bodied BYD D8UR] have been in storage for 8 months due to power supply issues at Edgware (BT), an issue which is similar to what happened last year with the BCEs [Enviro 400 City EV bodied BYD D8UR-DD] when they entered service on route 125 nearly 9 months late instead of entering service in February 2022.
 

Busaholic

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It is, surprisingly, TfL moquette that they're using! (Source: photo on The Londoner Facebook group)
There's a book by Andrew Martin called ''Seats of London: a Field Guide to London Transport Moquette Patterns''. which I haven't seen but has had some good reviews. That one's a bit too niche for even me to consider buying. :smile:
 

Goldfish62

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There's a book by Andrew Martin called ''Seats of London: a Field Guide to London Transport Moquette Patterns''. which I haven't seen but has had some good reviews. That one's a bit too niche for even me to consider buying. :smile:
I have that very book. :)
 

MasterSpenny

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When it commences, the SL4 will be a Go Ahead London operated route.
TENDER SUCCESS We have been awarded two electric bus contracts by Transport for London (TfL), as follows: · New Superloop Route SL4 (Canary Wharf to Grove Park via the Silvertown Tunnel). · Route 129 (currently Lewisham to North Greenwich, but in time extended to Great Eastern Quay via the Royal Docks). TfL anticipate the SL4 will be the final Superloop service (of ten in total). It is due to coincide with the opening of the Silvertown Tunnel in 2025 and will join the SL6 and SL7 in our Superloop portfolio. The 129’s, which we have run since June 2011, will not only benefit from new vehicles, but the route itself will be extended and the timetable greatly enhanced. David Cutts, Managing Director, said: “A new express service, a significant boost to an already popular route and brand new Zero Emission buses are all welcome developments. Combined, they enhance the public transport offering in this part of London and make a compelling case for modern bus travel. I thank TfL for their decision and look forward to working closely with them as we deliver these important improvements.” We are London’s largest bus company and a part of
@TheGoAheadGroup
, an international provider of passenger transport.
 

Snow1964

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When it commences, the SL4 will be a Go Ahead London operated route.

Seems SL4 will have a pvr of 18, and the extended 129 will have pvr of 22
Transport for London (TfL) has awarded the contract to Go-Ahead London to operate the new SL4 route that will be the final section of the new Superloop network to go live, due in 2025.

As well as the SL4 connecting Canary Wharf to Grove Park, Go-Ahead has retained the right to operate route 129 from Lewisham-North Greenwich. Both will be served by battery-electric buses, with figures from TfL showing that the SL4 will have a PVR of 18 and that figure for the 129 being 22.

Superloop, which began in July and is being rolled out in stages, is designed to improve connections through the outer London boroughs. The SL4 will complete the loop with the opening of the Silvertown Tunnel, which will also allow Go-Ahead’s 129 to move onwards to Great Eastern Quay. Frequencies on the latter will be increased on each day of the week.

Louise Cheeseman, TfL’s Director of Buses, says: “We’re pleased to announce Go-Ahead London as our operator for these two electric bus routes serving the Silvertown Tunnel when it opens in 2025. The SL4 and 129 will significantly improve public transport links in the southeast London area, connecting customers to the rest of the capital.

“We look forward to continuing to work closely with Go-Ahead London in the next two years so we can jointly provide the best service we can for our customers.”

The new network, which will be non-stop between Sun-in-the-Sands roundabout and Leamouth roundabout, builds on London Mayor Sadiq Khan’s promise for four million extra kilometres of bus services in the capital.

 

MotCO

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When it commences, the SL4 will be a Go Ahead London operated route.
That's advanced planning! The Silvertown Tunnel is not scheduled to open until sometime in 2025*. It seems as though the tunnelling is complete, and the road surfaces are being laid -not sure why it will take another 18 months to open.

* https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/silvertown-tunnel

The other interesting thing to note is that, after several recent tender announcements all being for EV buses, all bar one of the tenders announced on 13th September are all for existing diesel buses.
source: http://www.lots.org.uk/
RouteCurrent OperatorNew Operator
PVR
Vehicles
110London UnitedLondon United
TBC​
Existing diesel single deck
236Stagecoach Lea InterchangeStagecoach Lea Interchange
14​
Existing diesel single deck
242/N242Arriva London NorthStagecoach East London
14​
New electric double deck
272London UnitedLondon United
9​
Existing diesel single deck
283London UnitedLondon United
10​
Existing diesel single deck
440London UnitedLondon United
12​
Existing diesel single deck
P4Stagecoach SelkentLondon Central
13​
Existing diesel single deck
 

Snow1964

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The other interesting thing to note is that, after several recent tender announcements all being for EV buses, all bar one of the tenders announced on 13th September are all for existing diesel buses.
source: http://www.lots.org.uk/
TfL are still allowing existing buses upto about 8 years old for new contracts, hybrids for double deck, diesel for single deck. However the contracts are usually shorter, with recent ones starting in 2024 ending in 2029 (or early 2030). The contracts for new Routemasters have also been restricted to end by 2029

Those for electric vehicles (both new and using spare electric buses) have been 7 year contracts, so expire 2031, and now some into 2032.

The reason for not issuing longer contracts seems to be TfL have decided that all buses will have to be zero emission from 2034, although if the Government pays for the upgrade they will bring this forward to 2030. (It's stated in multiple TfL Board papers) They clearly don't want to have to buy out diesel or hybrid contracts if the earlier zero emission date is subsequently adopted.
 

Timmyd

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Not sure I get the point of the SL4. From any of those points, it will surely be quicker to Canary Wharf via train to Lewisham then DLR or bus to North Greenwich then one stop on the tube.

P4 leaving Catford is a big surprise; has it ever been operated from anywhere else? Which garage will Go Ahead run it from?
 

PGAT

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When taking into account price and frequency the bus is a more practical option for some, especially considering some houses and businesses will be right by a bus stop
 

Busaholic

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Not sure I get the point of the SL4. From any of those points, it will surely be quicker to Canary Wharf via train to Lewisham then DLR or bus to North Greenwich then one stop on the tube.

P4 leaving Catford is a big surprise; has it ever been operated from anywhere else? Which garage will Go Ahead run it from?
Stockwell was the original garage.
 

MotCO

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TfL are still allowing existing buses upto about 8 years old for new contracts, hybrids for double deck, diesel for single deck. However the contracts are usually shorter, with recent ones starting in 2024 ending in 2029 (or early 2030). The contracts for new Routemasters have also been restricted to end by 2029

Those for electric vehicles (both new and using spare electric buses) have been 7 year contracts, so expire 2031, and now some into 2032.

The reason for not issuing longer contracts seems to be TfL have decided that all buses will have to be zero emission from 2034, although if the Government pays for the upgrade they will bring this forward to 2030. (It's stated in multiple TfL Board papers) They clearly don't want to have to buy out diesel or hybrid contracts if the earlier zero emission date is subsequently adopted.
All the diesel contracts are for 6 years, with the exception of the 283 which bizarrely is for only 2 years (unless a misprint). Source - LOTS , as above

Route
Contract Start Date
Contract End Date
110
27th April 2024​
26th April 2030​
236
27th April 2024​
26th April 2030​
242/N242
24th February 2024​
21st February 2031​
272
25th May 2024​
24th May 2030​
283
24th February 2024​
20th February 2026​
440
25th May 2024​
24th May 2030​
P4
27th April 2024​
26th April 2030​
 

Notchapple

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Not sure I get the point of the SL4. From any of those points, it will surely be quicker to Canary Wharf via train to Lewisham then DLR or bus to North Greenwich then one stop on the tube.

P4 leaving Catford is a big surprise; has it ever been operated from anywhere else? Which garage will Go Ahead run it from?
NX(New Cross) under London Central
 

Goldfish62

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TfL are still allowing existing buses upto about 8 years old for new contracts, hybrids for double deck, diesel for single deck. However the contracts are usually shorter, with recent ones starting in 2024 ending in 2029 (or early 2030). The contracts for new Routemasters have also been restricted to end by 2029

Those for electric vehicles (both new and using spare electric buses) have been 7 year contracts, so expire 2031, and now some into 2032.

The reason for not issuing longer contracts seems to be TfL have decided that all buses will have to be zero emission from 2034, although if the Government pays for the upgrade they will bring this forward to 2030. (It's stated in multiple TfL Board papers) They clearly don't want to have to buy out diesel or hybrid contracts if the earlier zero emission date is subsequently adopted.
The 2034 date is a Mayoral commitment.

There's a lot of work going into phasing ZE introduction in line with the annual budget and avoiding peaks and troughs in spend. All this while trying to ensure that existing diesels and hybrids still get a full 14 years life within the constraints of the tendering system.

Then of course an eye needs to be kept on whether that 2034 date suddenly moves to 2030. Irrespective of government funding there's nothing stopping the mayor making a unilateral decision.

Incidentally, the last new diesels entered service in 2020.
 

Snow1964

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The 2034 date is a Mayoral commitment.

There's a lot of work going into phasing ZE introduction in line with the annual budget and avoiding peaks and troughs in spend. All this while trying to ensure that existing diesels and hybrids still get a full 14 years life within the constraints of the tendering system.

Then of course an eye needs to be kept on whether that 2034 date suddenly moves to 2030. Irrespective of government funding there's nothing stopping the mayor making a unilateral decision.

Incidentally, the last new diesels entered service in 2020.

The numbers of diesel and hybrid buses tailed off quite quickly after 2017. Handily the first table in TfL fleet audit shows this.

2016 : 256 diesel, 722 hybrid buses (978 total)
2017 : 333 diesel, 677 hybrid (1010 total)
2018 : 199 diesel, 479 hybrid ( 678 total)
2019 : 179 diesel, 203 hybrid (382 total)
2020 : 13 diesel, 130 hybrid (143 total)
2021 : no diesel or hybrid

So not that bad for early end dates under 14 years if go back to 2032 or 2033 instead of 2034, but gets rather lot if move target back to 2030

 

MasterSpenny

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A route actually converts to electric on the contract start date! It rarely happens in a post Covid world. (To be fair its only like the 214, 444 and W15 prior to the D3 contract starting which is today)

GoAhead London - Route D3​

Towards - Leamouth, London City Island​

FleetRegDestinationDueStop IdStop Name
SEe202beLB23PCYLeamouth, London City Island10:2451468Bonner Road
SEe204beLB23PDKLeamouth, London City Island10:1558619Bethnal Green Station
SEe207beLB23PDVLeamouth, London City Island10:1692234Baffin Way
SEe209beLB23PDYLeamouth, London City Island10:1571446Royal London Hospital

Towards - Bethnal Green, Bonner Road​

FleetRegDestinationDueStop IdStop Name
SEe201beLB23PCXBethnal Green, Bonner Road10:1448264Limehouse Town Hall
SEe203beLB23PCZBethnal Green, Bonner Road10:1453647Tobacco Dock
SEe205beLB23PDOBethnal Green, Bonner Road10:1592240Leamouth/Orchard Place

Vehicles that have also been on the route during the day :-​

FleetRegUsed FromUsed UntilLine
36351LX59AOB00:0001:15
36353LX59AOD00:0001:32
36359LX59AOK00:0001:28
36360LX59AOL00:0000:01
36361LX59AOM00:0001:15
SEe200beLB23PCV04:4508:04
 

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