London Fare Zones - Contactless Payment Start 16 Sept 14

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DelayRepay

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In practice, on most buses the "Good Samaritan" scenario will cause a bit of fuss when the passenger first boards and finds they haven't got means to pay, so it's likely the driver will remember that someone else paid. Would the driver's confirmation be enough to satisfy the inspector though?
 

jon0844

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Aren't RPIs there to check up on drivers too?
RPIs would catch a few drivers out my way, where we still only take cash (only smartcards are free passes for pensioners). There are some rather clever tricks employed, and I've notified the bus company before to point these out.

Thing is, I don't think Herts County Council have any inspectors that go on buses to check passengers, let alone drivers.
 

Indigo2

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That would waste a lot of paper for a fairly rare edge case.
I was thinking along the lines that you'd specifically ask the driver if you wanted a ticket issued. Then if an inspector boarded the bus, he/she would interrogate the ticket machine for a list of contactless cards that had had tickets printed. If a passenger prevented one of the cards on the list then he/she would be required to also present the ticket. Presentation of the ticket without the card would also be allowed.

The system probably wouldn't really work in practice though, as the passenger would need to know to request a ticket.
 

Be3G

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Thing is, I don't think Herts County Council have any inspectors that go on buses to check passengers, let alone drivers.
Indeed, the only inspector I've ever seen in Hertfordshire is on one of the Roadrunner (or whatever they're called today) buses and was clearly an employee of that company. In fact, all he did was just duplicate the check the driver made – or check the ticket the driver had just printed – as passengers got on, so I couldn't work out what purpose he was serving anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The system probably wouldn't really work in practice though, as the passenger would need to know to request a ticket.
I think it could work, as this situation generally seems to arise after someone has had a discussion with the driver (who explains to the passenger that cash can't be used); presumably the driver could therefore suggest the proposed contactless ticket.
 

andrewkeith5

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If you use someone else's CPC you risk Police being called!
But, if somebody elses uses their Contactless card to buy you a ticket, you do have a ticket - and you aren't using someone elses card. It is just that the current conditions of carriage are open to create a situation where someone who has a valid ticket for their journey (noting that nowhere in the definition of a valid ticket is there a requirement to be able to show it) cannot show it - which could quite easily be solved by giving the option of a receipt (which also, if I recall correctly, is a requirement of accepting payment which TfL presumably bodge their way around by claiming you can get one from the website).
 

Indigo2

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As I see it, a ticket is a receipt for payment of a fare. If you pay by Oyster or contactless, you don't get a ticket, and don't need to show a ticket. Your fare is considered paid by virtue of you having touched in.
 

andrewkeith5

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As I see it, a ticket is a receipt for payment of a fare. If you pay by Oyster or contactless, you don't get a ticket, and don't need to show a ticket. Your fare is considered paid by virtue of you having touched in.
Technically true I suppose, as if an RPI boarded your ticket would be printed at that point and handed to the RPI, but that still leaves you with the need to prove that it was your card (or a card on your behalf) that was used to enter the contract.
 

londonbridge

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As I see it, a ticket is a receipt for payment of a fare. If you pay by Oyster or contactless, you don't get a ticket, and don't need to show a ticket. Your fare is considered paid by virtue of you having touched in.
IIRC the posters on buses say you may be liable to a penalty fare or prosecution if you fail to show on demand a valid ticket, pass or other authority to travel. A validated Oyster or CPC would, in my view, fall under the definition of 'other authority to travel'. Someone else pays your fare, gets off, RPI gets on, !BOOM! Penalty fare for failing to show a ticket, pass or other travel authority is how TFL would probably look at it, no matter that the fare had actually been paid.
 

londonbridge

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This morning, for the first time when using my contactless card on a train (Southern from East Croydon to London Bridge for the record), I encountered a ticket inspector. "Tickets please......tickets please...."....I held out my bank card and he just walked straight past me and continued down the carriage, making no attempt to scan my card.
 

All Line Rover

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Is it not slightly worrying that in handing over your bank card, you are allowing a stranger to view your card number, expiry date, signature and CVV code (effectively the PIN number for online transactions) and allowing that stranger to tap the card against a device whose legitimacy you cannot verify? I would not be prepared to hand over my bank card to such a stranger.
 

tsr

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Is it not slightly worrying that in handing over your bank card, you are allowing a stranger to view your card number, expiry date, signature and CVV code (effectively the PIN number for online transactions) and allowing that stranger to tap the card against a device whose legitimacy you cannot verify? I would not be prepared to hand over my bank card to such a stranger.
I speak only for the contactless revenue inspection devices (RIDs) used by certain TOCs in South London, but, in terms of contactless cards (not Oyster/ITSO):
- Data is encrypted immediately upon receipt by the device, and transferred to banks for their own back office checks within a very short time period
- Devices are able to be locked and secured remotely
- The only information likely to be received by a user is whether or not the card is authorised for travel - you should not even find out whether minimum required funds are available
- Devices have been tried and tested elsewhere by third parties
- You would be required to allow your contactless card to be inspected if you have used it to form a contract under the NRCoC for travel on any given National Rail operator's trains

You can take down details (I would recommend from an ID card) of the person inspecting the card. Text BTP on 61016 if you feel they are not genuine. Contactless cards should be read by tapping them (on the RIDs which I am familiar with).

I have actively scrutinised the front-line use of the prevailing system in use, and the risk to any individual would seem pretty small in all day-to-day circumstances. Obviously I cannot go into all specifics, and I can't claim there is zero risk, because that would be foolish. Suffice to say that if I used contactless payment for travel (I don't - and have other reasons than security for this) I would not feel at any significant financial risk whatsoever as a result of any inspections.
 
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En4orc3R

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As I see it, a ticket is a receipt for payment of a fare. If you pay by Oyster or contactless, you don't get a ticket, and don't need to show a ticket. Your fare is considered paid by virtue of you having touched in.
Just to clarify that statement.

If you pay for your travel,using an Oyster, the Oyster is your ticket.
If you pay for your travel using CPC, the CPC is your ticket.
If you have a paper ticket, ....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I speak only for the contactless revenue inspection devices (RIDs) used by certain TOCs in South London, but, in terms of contactless cards (not Oyster/ITSO):
- Data is encrypted immediately upon receipt by the device, and transferred to banks for their own back office checks within a very short time period
- Devices are able to be locked and secured remotely
- The only information likely to be received by a user is whether or not the card is authorised for travel - you should not even find out whether minimum required funds are available
- Devices have been tried and tested elsewhere by third parties
- You would be required to allow your contactless card to be inspected if you have used it to form a contract under the NRCoC for travel on any given National Rail operator's trains

You can take down details (I would recommend from an ID card) of the person inspecting the card. Text BTP on 61016 if you feel they are not genuine. Contactless cards should be read by tapping them (on the RIDs which I am familiar with).

I have actively scrutinised the front-line use of the prevailing system in use, and the risk to any individual would seem pretty small in all day-to-day circumstances. Obviously I cannot go into all specifics, and I can't claim there is zero risk, because that would be foolish. Suffice to say that if I used contactless payment for travel (I don't - and have other reasons than security for this) I would not feel at any significant financial risk whatsoever as a result of any inspections.
Well written and clarified.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This morning, for the first time when using my contactless card on a train (Southern from East Croydon to London Bridge for the record), I encountered a ticket inspector. "Tickets please......tickets please...."....I held out my bank card and he just walked straight past me and continued down the carriage, making no attempt to scan my card.
Perhaps he didn't have a RID?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
IIRC the posters on buses say you may be liable to a penalty fare or prosecution if you fail to show on demand a valid ticket, pass or other authority to travel. A validated Oyster or CPC would, in my view, fall under the definition of 'other authority to travel'. Someone else pays your fare, gets off, RPI gets on, !BOOM! Penalty fare for failing to show a ticket, pass or other travel authority is how TFL would probably look at it, no matter that the fare had actually been paid.
Exactly.

The Conditions of Carriage and the Penalty Fare and Prosecution Policy all state that you must be able to show, on demand, a valid ticket for the journey you are taking.

If someone pays your fare, you should still be able to prove you paid, even at a later date.
 

Mojo

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Is it not slightly worrying that in handing over your bank card, you are allowing a stranger to view your card number, expiry date, signature and CVV code (effectively the PIN number for online transactions) and allowing that stranger to tap the card against a device whose legitimacy you cannot verify? I would not be prepared to hand over my bank card to such a stranger.
If you don't want someone to view your card details, then present the card in an opaque wallet. I cannot verify the legitimacy of any card machine in any store; yet I still insert my card when I wish to pay for goods/services in such stores. And unlike for having my card checked by transport staff, for Chip & Pin transactions I have no choice but to take the card out of the wallet.
 

londonbridge

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This morning, for the first time when using my contactless card on a train (Southern from East Croydon to London Bridge for the record), I encountered a ticket inspector. "Tickets please......tickets please...."....I held out my bank card and he just walked straight past me and continued down the carriage, making no attempt to scan my card.
Perhaps he didn't have a RID?
He definitely had a reader of some description but I didn't see him scanning any cards with it.
 

tsr

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He definitely had a reader of some description but I didn't see him scanning any cards with it.
Some of the readers need regular battery changes and, due to needing internet connectivity quite frequently, may not work in areas of frequent tunnels. They are also prone to locking themselves out of service if incorrect login details are presented. The other issue is that not all relevant onboard staff across London and the South East have had full training yet. So any of those reasons could have contributed to that!
 

infobleep

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Some of the readers need regular battery changes and, due to needing internet connectivity quite frequently, may not work in areas of frequent tunnels. They are also prone to locking themselves out of service if incorrect login details are presented. The other issue is that not all relevant onboard staff across London and the South East have had full training yet. So any of those reasons could have contributed to that!
Apart from the training, can they fix any of the other problems?
 

londonbridge

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One last question for now. On my journey home on Saturday evening I arrived back at Victoria and saw my train was going from platform 14. As I approached the platform a Southern official was indicating a stand-alone reader for Oyster users to touch in on. I went to touch my CPC and got 'seek assistance', tried again with the same result. I said to the official "I'm on contactless", and he replied "Contactless is that one", indicating a different reader. I touched on the second reader and it worked fine, so my question is obviously are some stand-alone readers/validators set to accept Oyster but reject contactless, and if so why?
 

MikeWh

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Shouldn't be. Yesterday I was with a friend and we both had issues at some gates/validators, particularly older LU ones. A helpful member of staff at London Bridge LU showed us that holding the card slightly at an angle sometimes worked. An unhelpful member of staff at Paddington LU tried to suggest that the card must be faulty and we should contact our bank.
 

londonbridge

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Last weekend I made two bus journeys on Saturday and then two more early on Sunday morning, the latter two being at 01:10 and 02:00. The correct amount of £4.40 was taken from my bank on Monday but it shows as two separate transactions of £2.90 and £1.50.
 
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