London-->Leeds on EMT via Sheffield

[mikebyde]

Hello,

I wondered if anyone could help me with an advance ticket query.

Usually it is possible to travel London-->Leeds on EMT via Sheffield on an advance ticket. These are typically cheaper than ECML but slower.

EMT have released their advanced tickets for the date I want to travel today, but the journey planner is only showing Advance tickets to Sheffield, not with the connection through to Leeds. (Travel on the same day the previous week shows the ticket I want, Advance on 09:55 change at Chesterfield).

Might anybody know if this the journey planner being slow to get into gear, or alternatively whether this route is not available for a different reason?

Mike

 

[me123]

The NXEC website is selling some tickets, have a look on there.

(I know it's a different company, but you can purchase any tickets from any company's website).

 

[clagmonster]

Going from the National Express journey planner, filtering down to EMT & connections gives no advance tickets. However, specifying 'via Barnsley', or 'via Rotherham Central' gives the required £9 fares. I therefore suspect no advance tickets are available on the connecting Cross Country service from Sheffield.

 

[mikebyde]

Great tip thank you.

I wonder if some Northern trains Sheffield-->Leeds really have first class as the journey planner suggests?

 

[Guinness]

No first class on Northern, however some units have declassified first class on some 158s.

 

[1D53]

Northern do not have first class in any 158's. The only Northern units to have First class are the 180's.

 

[Guinness]

Didn't they receive a few ex-TPE units with the Red First Class sections? Or did they all go to Central as back then.

 

[clagmonster]

As far as I am aware, Northern didn't receive any ex-TPE 158s driving vehicles, only the centre cars (via Central). The only exception to this is the odd ex-Central or Newton Heath unit, which were with TPE for a short time before arrival of 185s. These never had first class fitted.

 

[mikebyde]

Thank you everyone for your help. I hope you won't mind me asking another question.

After some persuasion at the sales desk, I now have my advance ticket London --> Leeds with a seat reservation from London St Pancras to Sheffield.

The ticket states "Route: AP EMT & CONNECT".

Are there any restrictions on the "connection" part of the journey? i.e. Sheffield-->Leeds?

 

[glynn80]

Thank you everyone for your help. I hope you won't mind me asking another question.

After some persuasion at the sales desk, I now have my advance ticket London --> Leeds with a seat reservation from London St Pancras to Sheffield.

The ticket states "Route: AP EMT & CONNECT".

Are there any restrictions on the "connection" part of the journey? i.e. Sheffield-->Leeds?

The answer is no it is unrestricted. Because the Northern trains are unreservable you basically have an open portion from Sheffield to Leeds as long as you travel after the arrival of your service from St Pancras to Sheffield.

 

[mikebyde]

The answer is no it is unrestricted. Because the Northern trains are unreservable you basically have an open portion from Sheffield to Leeds as long as you travel after the arrival of your service from St Pancras to Sheffield.

What about the CrossCountry trains?

 

[Max]

What about the CrossCountry trains?

Any connection, so yes, it does include CrossCountry.

 

[clagmonster]

Surely though, as Cross Country trains are reservable, any Cross Country guard/TTI could reasonably be ask for a seat reservation. This ticket will be marked 'valid only with reservation'.Certainly in my experiance, with such a ticket, although southbound, I was asked by the guard for my seat reservation, and even then it took some persuasion to convince him that it was a valid ticket, even though it was marked MML & connections, it was the only Leeds-Sheffield train early enough to connect into the Sheffield-St Pancras, and I had I seat reservation for his train.
I would say stick to the Northern service.

 

[glynn80]

Surely though, as Cross Country trains are reservable, any Cross Country guard/TTI could reasonably be ask for a seat reservation. This ticket will be marked 'valid only with reservation'.Certainly in my experiance, with such a ticket, although southbound, I was asked by the guard for my seat reservation, and even then it took some persuasion to convince him that it was a valid ticket, even though it was marked MML & connections, it was the only Leeds-Sheffield train early enough to connect into the Sheffield-St Pancras, and I had I seat reservation for his train.
I would say stick to the Northern service.

This has been a bone of contention in the past, now depending on what ticket issuing system it has been printed on it is likely to say "Issued as xx coupons" and if you have both coupons ie. your ticket and reservation for the EMT service there isn't anything a guard could feasibly argue.

 

[mikebyde]

It is 3 coupons, 2 tickets (2 travellers) and one reservation (the EMT train). The reservation states "Mandatory Reservation Coupon 1 of 1".

Could I get a reservation on the CrossCountry train, if I took my tickets back to the ticket office?

 

[John @ home]

Could I get a reservation on the CrossCountry train, if I took my tickets back to the ticket office?

No. It's the absence of a reservation between Sheffield and Leeds which makes your ticket valid by any train on any permitted route for that part of the journey. The fact that "The reservation states "Mandatory Reservation Coupon 1 of 1"." is the evidence you need to demonstrate that you have no reservation between Sheffield and Leeds and therefore are unrestricted between these points.

John

 

[clagmonster]

I understand what your saying, and in fact John, given what you've now said, I agree with you. However, I could see some guards complaining at this.

 

[Max]

I understand what your saying, and in fact John, given what you've now said, I agree with you. However, I could see some guards complaining at this.

I seriously doubt this. I've used '+ connections' tickets on various trains between Hull and Doncaster before, including NXEC and FHT services where a reservation would have been issued. For example, when holding a First Advance from Edinburgh-Hull (NXEC + connections), I waited 5 extra minutes in Doncaster to catch a Hull Trains service (which carries first class) as opposed to a Northern service with no FC. As far as I'm aware, the connection portion is basically an open ticket.

 

[clagmonster]

I agree that it is effectively an open ticket, and hence valid on the Cross Country service, my stated concern is that some guards may not agree that it is a valid ticket, as I myself have experienced on Cross Country.

 

[1D53]

Personally I've used XC between Leeds and Sheffield on London St Pancras MML and connections tickets many times without problems.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When I was trained back in the year whenever, advance purchase tickets had to have a reservation for every reservable leg of the journey, but the demise of the NFM in paper form and the lack of a retail manual (Both of which are now found as part of the FRPP for staff) means that it is difficult to find a definative answer.

It is dubious if XC are a 'connection', my understanding of the term is usually used to describe a local TOC that may have no reservable services, like Northern. The FRPP says:

- If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

- Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased.

I suspect an 'EMT and connections' ticket is not, officially, valid on XC, but do the TMs care enough to cause a fuss? I suspect a few may do, but maybe the majority can't be asked.

 

[D841]

I suspect an 'EMT and connections' ticket is not, officially, valid on XC, but do the TMs care enough to cause a fuss? I suspect a few may do, but maybe the majority can't be asked.

As far as I know, the normal fare from Sheffield to Leeds is the same regardless of operator, but is not valid via Doncaster [1]. I have a feeling that the PTEs are involved in setting it, too. On that basis, I would suggest that the "+ connections" bit would also be valid on any service via Darton, Penistone, or Moorthorpe.

[1] There is a higher "via Doncaster" fare, which takes into account the use of NXEC. I imagine this route would also not be valid in this case.

 

[yorkie]

It is dubious if XC are a 'connection', my understanding of the term is usually used to describe a local TOC that may have no reservable services, like Northern

If no connection is specified then it is, surely, available on any connecting train? NXEC used to spell this out that their tickets were valid on "any" connecting train except Virgin. But simplification has removed that clarity.

I suspect an 'EMT and connections' ticket is not, officially, valid on XC,

Where's the official line and where is it documented? if it is not documented it is not enforceable

but do the TMs care enough to cause a fuss? I suspect a few may do, but maybe the majority can't be asked.

I think "asked" may be a typo but yes they would probably not fuss, and they'd not have a leg to stand on anyway regardless of whatever some internal document not-for-public-eyes says the "official" line is!

 

[clagmonster]

I should imagine that as long as Doncaster is on a permitted route, then going that way is valid.
Incidentally, now you mention NXEC, one case recently, I way travelling south from Leeds-Kings X, booked on the 06:19 stopper from Leeds-Donny, for an East Coast service forward. As I had arrived at the station in time, I asked the guard on the 06:10 whether I would be OK to travel to Doncaster on his train, for my connection forward. The request was refused. In this instance, from what I have read here, I now believe he is in the wrong. My one doubt is the route on the ticket was 'NXEC & Connections' (or similar). Where this is stated, is it necessary for the non-NXEC leg to be on another connecting operator.

 

[yorkie]

I agree that it is effectively an open ticket, and hence valid on the Cross Country service, my stated concern is that some guards may not agree that it is a valid ticket, as I myself have experienced on Cross Country.

In that case the conversation could perhaps go like this:
Guard "you need a reservation to be on this train"
Passenger "Here are my reservations, 1 of 1, from Sheffield. Nothing is reserved until Sheffield"
Guard "well you cant get this one" (or whatever excuse they say)
Passenger "Which one am I meant to get then?... Where is this rule documented?.... It says Mandatory coupon 1 of 1, so how is anything else mandatory?..... etc...

Just be calm and assertive about it. At the end of the day, if they make a rule up then it is not enforceable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I should imagine that as long as Doncaster is on a permitted route, then going that way is valid.
Incidentally, now you mention NXEC, one case recently, I way travelling south from Leeds-Kings X, booked on the 06:19 stopper from Leeds-Donny, for an East Coast service forward. As I had arrived at the station in time, I asked the guard on the 06:10 whether I would be OK to travel to Doncaster on his train, for my connection forward. The request was refused. In this instance, from what I have read here, I now believe he is in the wrong. My one doubt is the route on the ticket was 'NXEC & Connections' (or similar). Where this is stated, is it necessary for the non-NXEC leg to be on another connecting operator.

For their AP fares, GNER/NXEC used to state something like it was "valid for the NXEC train(s) stated, and any connecting train by any other operator (except Virgin)", however none of that wording is now present.

I suspect the guard was enforcing the old rule because he wasn't aware that it is no longer mentioned in the "simplified" rules.

As far as I know, the normal fare from Sheffield to Leeds is the same regardless of operator, but is not valid via Doncaster [1]. I have a feeling that the PTEs are involved in setting it, too. On that basis, I would suggest that the "+ connections" bit would also be valid on any service via Darton, Penistone, or Moorthorpe.

[1] There is a higher "via Doncaster" fare, which takes into account the use of NXEC. I imagine this route would also not be valid in this case.

The fares between Sheffield are "Any Permitted" and "Not Doncaster", but a Sheffield to Leeds ticket and associated routing restrictions are not relevant when discussing a Leeds to London ticket. If you want to look up routeing for Leeds to London then you have to look up Leeds to London and not break it down into chunks.

As for who sets the SHF-LDS fare it's NXEC for Any Permitted and NT for Not Doncaster

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Okay, I have been looking through this and can't find an awful lot to stop you using XC so I cannot confirm that it is not valid on their services, however, reservations are compulsory for this ticket (see restriction code AR below).

Meaning that if you intended to travel on the XC service you would be given a reservation when you bought the ticket (Fastis can't issue the ticket without the reservation for all reservable services) and therefore the lack of a reservation would indicate a change of travel plans.

FRPP:

Validity Code AR

Outward Travel

Valid on East Midlands Trains (TOC Code: EMT) and connecting services

Seat reservations are compulsory

- Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased

In the interest of fairness I should also add:

- If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

But I should also state that there is no description for "other valid travel itinerary".

Feel free to interpret that differently if you wish, but thats what it says.

EDIT: None of the XC connection timings looked at showed an availability of 'EMT & Connections' Advance fares on Fastis. The Northern Rail connections timings showed availability using the same EMT service from London.

EDIT 2: example: 17 March 2009

1421 Sheffield to Leeds, XC service, cheapest available fare = Advance, £6.50.

1155 St Pancras to Sheffield, EMT service, and 1418 Sheffield to Leeds, Northern Rail service, cheapest available fare = Advance, £11.

1155 St Pancras to Sheffield, EMT service, and 1421 Sheffield to Leeds, XC service, cheapest available fare = Super Off peak (single), £83

 

[yorkie]

The comparison of fares is irrelevant. I could say "Nottingham to London costs more than Newark to London therefore a Newark to London is not valid via Nottingham" and it would sound plausible, but be totally incorrect!

So, ignoring that, that leaves us with the quotes that you give which do not say anything about trains that are reservable being barred if no reservation is held. It's a made-up rule that cannot be enforced.

 

[mikebyde]

If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

This is what is says on the plastic sleeve they have clipped the tickets in. Frustratingly it does not explain what an "appropriate" connecting train might be.

 

[John @ home]

This is what is says on the plastic sleeve they have clipped the tickets in. Frustratingly it does not explain what an "appropriate" connecting train might be.

Yes. This is a quotation from the conditions for Advance tickets.

"appropriate" is not defined in either these conditions, nor in the "National Rail Conditions of Travel booklet" which is also mentioned in this small sleeve.

But I don't agree that this is frustrating. Consumer law ensures that if a ticket is valid in reserved train(s) and seat(s) plus those of appropriate connecting train companies, and the word appropriate is not defined, then a Court will interpret this to mean appropriate to the purchaser, not appropriate to the vendor.

John

 

[glynn80]

Yes. This is a quotation from the conditions for Advance tickets.

"appropriate" is not defined in either these conditions, nor in the "National Rail Conditions of Travel booklet" which is also mentioned in this small sleeve.

But I don't agree that this is frustrating. Consumer law ensures that if a ticket is valid in reserved train(s) and seat(s) plus those of appropriate connecting train companies, and the word appropriate is not defined, then a Court will interpret this to mean appropriate to the purchaser, not appropriate to the vendor.

John

I hear consumer law banded about a lot, I'm not saying your incorrect in any means but I was just wondering which piece of legislation states this as it seems pretty useful?